No Patience with Duck Killers.

BamaBill,

I noticed this year for some reason, when I was at our local duck blind drawing the same things you've mentioned. I wondered if it was just me. I'm standing with guys I either grew up with or have gotten to know from hunting the area and their grand kids or nephews are running around with the wack'em and stack'em tee shirts, talking trash and I stood back and wondered if that was me 35 years ago. Am I getting that old? I always thought just because the law says I can shoot 6 ducks that a successful hunt doesn't require I limit out? Time has sure changed because one of my favorite times of the day is right before sun up when the ducks get up to go out to feed and it's so quiet that the wing beats over head give you that little adrenelin rush that tells you it's time to thank god you were allowed another morning, check the watch, load the gun, maybe have one cup of coffee, look over the decoys one more time and pet the dog before shooting time arrives.

Take care,

Ed L.
 
Sab,you are still very young.

If I make it till June I'll be 59. When I'm hunting I forget how old I am till I overdo it and then I'm reminded the next morning by muscles that I have made angry.

Hope I can hunt as long as I'm able to breathe.

Best,
Harry
 
"I am, like Lee Harker, a Michiganian "

Uhhhhh....when I was being born and raised I was a MICHIGANDER and remain so. I think michiganians are democrats from wayne county

I wonder how many here have "a tinge of remorse" when they take an animal ?
 
This thread is one of the reasons I have come to love this site. Its like a brotherhood.

When I was a kid, duck hunting enjoyment was measured by the number of birds killed and how many boxes of shells we fired. Without these two things in abundance, I remember thinking I had wasted my time.

Now as I have reached my 60's, duck hunting has become about the experience, the anticipation, and has far far less to do with shots fired or birds killed. It's about being out there to enjoy the water, the earth coming alive at sunrise, the birds coming in to decoys, the wind, the weather, the WHOLE experience. I have seen things that I would otherwise have missed out on unless... I was a duck hunter. Don't get me wrong, I still want the action but I now don't ever feel like I have wasted my time.
So I thank the good Lord was giving me this gift and only ask Him that I be able to do so until my dying day.

So let the kids of this group enjoy the sport for their own reasons, knowing that one day when they reach
the autumn of their lives, they too, will understand.

Just the ramblings of an old fart.
Bill
 
I'm with you on this Mike. It was a good post and I understood it.

I'm happy killing a duck or two or three. I eat them. I try hard to shoot only at drakes. I don't shoot what I won't eat so I do a lot of bird watching here on the coast (Buffies, mergs, GE's fly right on by) My day is ruined if I can't find a crip.

Duck hunting for me isn't about the tailgate at the end of the day, it's about the stuff involved in the chase. Sadly, admitting the above isn't popular and from the tailgater's perspective it reveals either one or two things about me, either; 1) I am a puXXy or 2) I don't have the skills to get more ducks. I will agree with #2 because thank God duck hunting is a journeyman's trade, it requires countless skills and learning is what keeps me motivated to keep going out.

I have no patience with duck killers either. Hunters are great and believe me there is a diff. BTW, I have no problem with guys killing 6 ducks as long as it's a fair chase and I realize that the word "fair" is relative.
 
I get a kick out of reading responses to a post like this. Seems everyone reads it with a different interpretation. We are all seperated by a common language.
 
I can agree that not everyone agrees on what 'makes' the hunt. I have my own criteria, and it's a long list....of which the take is only one element....but the pinnacle element for there even to have been the urge to have a hunt in the first place, I guess. What I see in many newer or younger hunters is the 'competitive' duckhunting mentality. Gotta brag, gotta trash talk, gotta show off, gotta have this or that, and to heck with etiquette, ethics, or any common sense decency for the sport or their fellow hunter. THAT'S the stuff I see all to often these days, on the water and on the internet, that make many of us wonder what is ahead.:)



Bravo!!!!
 
My two cents...

Maybe we won't have a positive influence on the current "generation dux" extreme hunters or whatever they call themselves, but we are doing a lot of nice things here that are unusual in this day and age. I think that may be what the original poster was getting at.

Look at the great carving sessions Ballard and Rutgers are doing; the way Bill Perry is keeping traditional boat making alive; the way everyone is quick to help another work through or solve a problem; the great ethics of youth like Eddie, Dani and Chris Hagenlocher; the generous professionals of all trades that take the time to help others without compensation and the efforts many of us put into making sure our kids and grandkids have a healthy respect for outdoors and the sporting tradition.

I think (I hope this isn't too much of an assumption) we all like to shoot and harvest ducks. That is an inherent part of the activity. Like someone else posted if it weren't for that, you might as well pick up a camera and put down the gun. There is as much enjoyment to be had from the sunrise and the water without a firearm.

Personally, I don't agree with the Generation Dux crowd's attitude, but I doubt my parents or grandparents approved of my attitude. That's life, time goes on, old things are replaced by new. Better? Worse? Who knows, just different.

I do think it is faulty to assume the old ways were better. As someone (Harry?) pointed out, there were a lot of downsides in the "old days". Shooting an autoloader or driving an aluminum pontoon boat to hunt from doesn't make someone automatically disrespect the resource or the sport.

I think it just so happens that a lot of died in the wool hunters like to explore the old-timey way of doing things to enrich their experience. I bet for every old SxS shooting, decoy carving, boat making hunter that respects the resource there are a hundred 870 shooting, canoe paddling, plastic decoy hunting people that have every bit as much respect for that same resource. Likewise for other hunting activities (traditional muzzleloader shooters, or traditional bow hunters for example). Does that make the old-timey ways better? Nah. Again, just different.

This crowd is a bit self-selecting since we all came here because of our interest/curiosity about wooden boats. Many of us stuck around for the company and the camaraderie. That already makes it a much smaller sample of the overall population and you are bound to see more people here that are into the more traditional ways of doing things.

Heck, there are plenty of other places cough*refuge*cough where you can find a zillion hunters sharing ideas, but it has a different feel. That doesn't make them any better or worse, just different.

Anyhow, I just wanted to join in...

Charlie
 
If a limit is the only thing that drives someone, save thousands of dollars, take the gun to a shooting preserve and smack six or seven as they toss them in the air....or just smack them on the head with a stick and save on shells.Sound rediculous?? Then you are in the fraternity Mike was talking about enjoying. If getting skunked ruins your day afield or leaves you feeling cheated, you need to do something else.
 
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Like Lee said, there are lots of different perspectives.

I'd like to share an excerpt from a letter I use with an elective class at our high school called Words From the Wild. It sums up my thoughts on waterfowl hunting pretty well. The guy who started this class 10 years ago is the chairman of the English Department and a dedicated outdoorsman. His class exposes the kids to some classic literature on the outdoors (everything from Sand County Almanac to A River runs Through It to Tales of the Old Duck Hunters), and provides them some great "hands on" experiences - fly casting, fly tying, river float trips, conservation projects, etc. Each semester, as part of the unit he does on hunting, I get invited to bring my Lab to put on a retriever demo and talk about the retriever breeds and how they're trained for waterfowl hunting. We do a live demo at a pond in a park behind the school, complete with wingers, shooting (12 ga poppers), and a simulated hunt-test triple with a blind retrieve, poison bird, etc. Usually, I'll bring in decoys and other gear for the kids to see. We even towed the boat in with the blind up once.

For the most part these are suburban kids who have had little or no exposure to hunting, shooting, & working dogs (didn't used to be that way when our community was mostly family farms instead of subdivisions). They come away with a whole new outlook; yet the discussions of hunting, as well as the questions they pose, get to be very interesting at times. Let's just say I get to field some challenging questions. Overall, the dogs are great ambassadors and over the years have won over a lot of youngsters who are awed by how they work, and who come to appreciate the perspective I ask them to consider.

Here's part of the letter the kids get a week or so before we do the demo's:

".....I first became involved with retriever training and waterfowl hunting through my friendship with a professional gun-dog trainer & breeder, the late Lewis Craig of Lebanon, Ohio. Lew, who was some 35 years my senior, became the mentor who taught me all the foundational skills necessary for training retrievers. In addition, he introduced me to the unique culture, traditions, customs, and ethical codes that surround upland-bird and waterfowl hunting. This history is one steeped in the “split-rail values,” man-earth relationship, and self-imposed ethical restraints that you will no doubt read about, discuss, and debate during the course of the WFTW class.....
...In the mid-1970’s, my fascination with the “ropes & the tools” of waterfowling led me to take up the carving of my own hunting decoys. In time, I moved on to the sculpting of more intricately researched, detailed, and realistic bird carvings. Over the years, I have had the opportunity to give carving & painting demonstrations and publish instructional articles on carving. On a number of occasions, The Museum of Natural History, Audubon Society, Ohio Department of Natural Resources, Hamilton County Parks, and many conservation organizations have invited me to display my work and speak. I continue to make the decoys I hunt with, and thoroughly enjoy this woodcraft associated with my hunting....
...I mention all this because I want you to realize that there are endeavors connected to sport-hunting which carry with them a sense of fulfillment completely apart from the transitory end- result they bring (the taking of game). Unlike the utilitarian hunting of our forefathers, sport- hunting somewhat reverses the means-to-an-end order that characterized the subsistence hunting of the historical past. I believe that a valuable element of the hunting experience is in its ability to link us to this past and the connection with wild things that modern life has distanced us from. In our times, the taking of game is not the modern hunter’s singular focus, and I’d like to believe that what should stir the interest of today’s hunter is everything necessary to achieve that end. For example, what I seek as a hunter is largely concerned with attempting to achieve the end result while being immersed in the related sets of skills and experiences that make up the process. Making the decoys I hunt over, training retrievers, developing skills calling waterfowl, practicing marksmanship, seeking knowledge about the birds I hunt, facing the elements while using prudent judgment, choosing to limit factors that may give me an unfair advantage, demonstrating self-imposed ethical conduct, sharing time afield with family and good friends - all become as (or more) important than the end result....

...Perhaps Jose Ortega Y Gasset, Spain’s leading philosopher of the 20th century, summed it up best when he wrote in his classic work, Meditations on Hunting:
'... one does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted.' "


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I am duck hunter and a duck killer. I will shoot as many as the regulations allow each and everytime I am out. If you want to talk about conservation, conserve the habitat that is why watefowl won't be here in the numbers we have today 50 years from now, it's not because guys like me try to take a limit every time they go out.

I will kill them and my son kill them just like I do when he is old enough. There is nothing wrong with it...it is the sport. Of course the experience of sunrises, and setting up the spread, and the boat ride out and the quality time with close friends and family, etc is all part of it, but at the end of the day you bring a gun and you are out there to kill ducks.

If you don't want to kill ducks bring a paint brush and some canvas and become an artist and don't call yourself a duck hunter because you aren't.....you are a duck watcher and that is why the Audubon Society exists.

We are all on the same team here and if you stay within the limits that are set you have every right to kill your 6 ducks and go about your business.
 
Yea, just go become a paint brush, canvas-totin', girly-man, tree huggin', never killed 'im a limit ever' time out like I do guy like........Dave Hagerbaumer.... or maybe Audubon hisself ( who as we all know never shot a bird). ... and what about those camera pansies like Hitch and that Pitboss fella!?

Your point?
 
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Like Lee said, there are lots of different perspectives.

I'd like to share an excerpt from a letter I use with an elective class at our high school called Words From the Wild. It sums up my thoughts on waterfowl hunting pretty well. The guy who started this class 10 years ago is the chairman of the English Department and a dedicated outdoorsman. His class exposes the kids to some classic literature on the outdoors (everything from Sand County Almanac to A River runs Through It to Tales of the Old Duck Hunters), and provides them some great "hands on" experiences - fly casting, fly tying, river float trips, conservation projects, etc. Each semester, as part of the unit he does on hunting, I get invited to bring my Lab to put on a retriever demo and talk about the retriever breeds and how they're trained for waterfowl hunting. We do a live demo at a pond in a park behind the school, complete with wingers, shooting (12 ga poppers), and a simulated hunt-test triple with a blind retrieve, poison bird, etc. Usually, I'll bring in decoys and other gear for the kids to see. We even towed the boat in with the blind up once.

For the most part these are suburban kids who have had little or no exposure to hunting, shooting, & working dogs (didn't used to be that way when our community was mostly family farms instead of subdivisions). They come away with a whole new outlook; yet the discussions of hunting, as well as the questions they pose, get to be very interesting at times. Let's just say I get to field some challenging questions. Overall, the dogs are great ambassadors and over the years have won over a lot of youngsters who are awed by how they work, and who come to appreciate the perspective I ask them to consider.

Here's part of the letter the kids get a week or so before we do the demo's:

".....I first became involved with retriever training and waterfowl hunting through my friendship with a professional gun-dog trainer & breeder, the late Lewis Craig of Lebanon, Ohio. Lew, who was some 35 years my senior, became the mentor who taught me all the foundational skills necessary for training retrievers. In addition, he introduced me to the unique culture, traditions, customs, and ethical codes that surround upland-bird and waterfowl hunting. This history is one steeped in the “split-rail values,” man-earth relationship, and self-imposed ethical restraints that you will no doubt read about, discuss, and debate during the course of the WFTW class.....
...In the mid-1970’s, my fascination with the “ropes & the tools” of waterfowling led me to take up the carving of my own hunting decoys. In time, I moved on to the sculpting of more intricately researched, detailed, and realistic bird carvings. Over the years, I have had the opportunity to give carving & painting demonstrations and publish instructional articles on carving. On a number of occasions, The Museum of Natural History, Audubon Society, Ohio Department of Natural Resources, Hamilton County Parks, and many conservation organizations have invited me to display my work and speak. I continue to make the decoys I hunt with, and thoroughly enjoy this woodcraft associated with my hunting....
...I mention all this because I want you to realize that there are endeavors connected to sport-hunting which carry with them a sense of fulfillment completely apart from the transitory end- result they bring (the taking of game). Unlike the utilitarian hunting of our forefathers, sport- hunting somewhat reverses the means-to-an-end order that characterized the subsistence hunting of the historical past. I believe that a valuable element of the hunting experience is in its ability to link us to this past and the connection with wild things that modern life has distanced us from. In our times, the taking of game is not the modern hunter’s singular focus, and I’d like to believe that what should stir the interest of today’s hunter is everything necessary to achieve that end. For example, what I seek as a hunter is largely concerned with attempting to achieve the end result while being immersed in the related sets of skills and experiences that make up the process. Making the decoys I hunt over, training retrievers, developing skills calling waterfowl, practicing marksmanship, seeking knowledge about the birds I hunt, facing the elements while using prudent judgment, choosing to limit factors that may give me an unfair advantage, demonstrating self-imposed ethical conduct, sharing time afield with family and good friends - all become as (or more) important than the end result....

...Perhaps Jose Ortega Y Gasset, Spain’s leading philosopher of the 20th century, summed it up best when he wrote in his classic work, Meditations on Hunting:
'... one does not hunt in order to kill; on the contrary, one kills in order to have hunted.' "









Thats some good stuff Bob!!!! Thank you for sharing it!!
 
"...We are all on the same team here"

I'll always vote to keep hunting free from more regulation and I support land preservation efforts so from that perspective, yes, we're on the same team.

But, if you don't naturally concur with the points made in the first post, you'll never understand it. I've had bad experiences with "kill the limit at all costs guys" - typically selfish, oblivious, "who cares about a couple of crips", don't put the crips out of their misery and usually careless in the blind. So, no you aren't on my team chief.
 
I never expected a spanish philosopher to condense my feelings about the sport that consumes my life into one sentence.

But that's it, perfectly summed up.
One canvasback taken from a layout boat in a raging storm brings me greater satisfaction than a whole pile of teal taken while sitting on a log in my T shirt.

But that's just me (and maybe that spanish dude)
 
I never expected a spanish philosopher to condense my feelings about the sport that consumes my life into one sentence.
He, he, he... Mike, That "Spanish dude" has a whole bookful of ideas that most of the guys who frequent this site would probably relate to.

Look at some of these chapter headings:
-Hunting as "Diversion"
-Hunting and Happiness
-The Essence of Hunting
-The Scarcity of Game
-Suddenly We Hear the Sound of Barking
-The Ethics of Hunting
-Hunting and Reason
-Vacations from the Human Condition
-The Hunter - the Alert Man
(gee, nothing titled 'I'm a killin' machine and you're not.')

He wrote 'Meditations' in 1942 as the prologue to his book "Venite Anos de Caza Mayor" (Twenty Years a Big Game Hunter), and the copy I have was translated in 1972. Reprints were done in '72 and '85 and I believe it's available in paperback.

Charles Scribner's Sons
Macmillan Publishing Co.
806 Third Ave. NY, NY 10022

How about this line from the chapter "Suddenly We Hear the Sound of Barking " (about the use of dogs in hunting):

"Here is the dog, which has always been an enthusiastic hunter on his own initiative. Thanks to that, man integrates the dog's hunting into his own and so raises hunting to it's most complex and perfect form. This achievement was to hunting what the discovery of polyphony was to music. In fact, with the addition of dogs....hunting aquires a certain kind of symphonic majesty."

Wow! Wish I had said that. Kind of beats, "If you don't want to kill become an artist."

I'd say that many people on this site have managed to become both and therin lies the difference between duckboats.net and some of the others.

I'm MLBob, and I approve Gasset's message.
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I'm sitting here reading this thread again from the vault I call work. I read it early on and haven't had time to reply. Work has been interfering with life again too much, duty calls... but there comes a point when it is stressing my best friends at the home who eagerly deserve my attentions more.

But the storm that moved through last night has taken out our Pro-Interlink servers, so as I wait for our in house Geek Squad to polish off their Saturday morning scone and breve, and get their ass in here and re-boot the servers, I realize I could have been "Duck Hunting" this morning with my Canons. The Teals will be gone in a week or so, and I have missed my spring shooting so much.

MLBob, we are on the same wavelength my friend, I just picked up another hardback of the English translation of "Meditations" two weeks ago.

It's at home with the dogs. I should have brought one of each in to work with me today for something to do while I wait.

Hitch
 
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