Now that BP has plugged the well.....

Dwight Harley

Dwight Harley

Well-known member
....I get the feeling that some of the really crazy types on the left are, well, dissapointed that they don't have something to screech about. I keep hearing comments from these people like, "yeah, the oil has stopped flowing, but...."

No doubt that this was an unprecedented mess, but I have been reading that large amounts of oil have been flowing into the Gulf from natural vents on the bottom for millions of years, and that bacteria that can break down the oil have evolved accordingly.
Just my two cents worth.
 
I'm not sure if it is bacteria or what but I do know it was over hyped by both sides. I agree that Obama should have been their sooner and longer but I never thought it would be the Exxon Valdez II. It was light oil that is easily dispersed and evaporated. Some "right wing" talk shows went way over the top and it bothered me... and there isn't much room left to the right of me on my wing. :)

We all like to be appalled by things the BP CEO said but he was only guilty of honesty, something we don't hear much of. It was a drop in the bucket because it wasn't heavy oil. I like when the white house spokesman said the dispersant was like a can of coke that was OK but when the CEO said something like that he needed to be sent to Siberia.

The only thing I learned from this is that if the USA and a British company can't handle a leak like that at 5000 feet quicker then we shouldn't be going that deep right now. And if we can't handle it I especially don't want a country like China drilling nearby.

By November there are going to be numerous politicians who will be claiming credit for their part in the "clean up".

Tim
 
When all the waterman in the golf can go back to what they were doing before this happened than we can call this thing fixed.
 
When all the waterman in the golf can go back to what they were doing before this happened than we can call this thing fixed.
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I keep hearing this but then I also see 1000 boats being used by BP and the EPA. Aren't they being paid to skim? to move booms? Aren't there a bunch of jobs cleaning up that weren't there before? Aren't the restaurants and hotels filled with media and cleanup people? Haven't their already been millions paid out?
Not all...but some fishermen are way over exaggerating their lost wages. Fishing is no guarantee. They could have gone out and caught nothing and no one would have said anything. I think we do owe them a return of whatever fees and licensing that they paid for the privilege of fishing public waters. They took a business risk as independent business men. Imagine if the road outside your business gets rerouted or closed temporarily. You could seek justice in courts but that would be your course of action.
Guess I was getting tired of hearing the poor fisherman stories on the news and many of them sounding like they "owned" the fish. It's not their land, water or shrimp. It's a resource that they are licensed to harvest.
 
"I keep hearing this but then I also see 1000 boats being used by BP and the EPA. Aren't they being paid to skim? to move booms?"
Short answer, NO

"Aren't there a bunch of jobs cleaning up that weren't there before?"
NO

"Aren't the restaurants and hotels filled with media and cleanup people?"
NO

"Haven't their already been millions paid out?"
Yes and no.

"Not all...but some fishermen are way over exaggerating their lost wages."
if by some, you mean <5%, then yes.

Fishing is no guarantee.
Breathing is no guarantee either but without air, it is impossible. If the water is closed, there is no fishing.

"They could have gone out and caught nothing and no one would have said anything."
With this straw man, their failure to earn a living is their fault. When banned from attempting to make a living for which you have paid for the priviledge, it is not their fault.

I think we do owe them a return of whatever fees and licensing that they paid for the privilege of fishing public waters. They took a business risk as independent business men. Imagine if the road outside your business gets rerouted or closed temporarily.
Let's paint a little more accurate scenario.
You buy a car just like everyone else. You use it to go to work where it is up to you to earn a living or fail. The government tells you that you can't drive. Not just you but nobody in your area even though you live 30 miles from your job and your customers can't get to you either. Now in reality, were the fish safe? who knows. should they have been catching fish and selling them, probably not until it was determined that it was safe.

You could seek justice in courts but that would be your course of action.

"Guess I was getting tired of hearing the poor fisherman stories on the news and many of them sounding like they "owned" the fish. It's not their land, water or shrimp. It's a resource that they are licensed to harvest."
do without your vehicle for a couple of months. You don't own the roads so you can't complain it you and all of your neighbors are not allowed to use them...they are a priviledge and its just a resource.
 
No doubt that this was an unprecedented mess, but I have been reading that large amounts of oil have been flowing into the Gulf from natural vents on the bottom for millions of years, and that bacteria that can break down the oil have evolved accordingly.
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I would say that "large" is a relative term. If you mean Large as in a couple of thousand gallons a year, then maybe. Most of what seeps into the Gulf is gas hydrates, with are nothing like oil. California has some big natural oil seeps that leak crude right into the Pacific as well.

But yes, the bacteria is breaking down the oil quickly but the damage is probably already done to our offshore fisheries and we really dont know yet how much damage has been done. I have 9 years before I can retire from the state and I will probably be dealing with this shit the day I turn in my keys.

And no, there are longer thousands of boats being used to cleanup & deploy boom. Since there is no more floating oil to clean up, all the booms is being retrieved, the skimmers have been released and all those guys are once again un-employed. Some state waters have been opened to fishing & shrimping but they are having a hard time finding dealers (other than locals) willing to buy Gulf shrimp & fish. Its an economic nightmare down here, our tourist season was probably off by over 50% and the clean up crews & govt workers did not put a dent in the losses.
 
"Not all...but some fishermen are way over exaggerating their lost wages."
if by some, you mean <5%, then yes.
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Dutch

Simple solution to that problem is base compensation on last years reported W2 earnings. hmmmmmm. Bet that idea wouldn't go over well.
 

Imagine if the road outside your business gets rerouted or closed temporarily. Guess I was getting tired of hearing the poor fisherman stories on the news and many of them sounding like they "owned" the fish. It's not their land, water or shrimp. It's a resource that they are licensed to harvest.
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I kind of 'get' what you are saying but then also not.
Imagine the road is rerouted because of a large commercial truck turning over and dumping hazardous chemicals. Then your business should be able to recover the amount the closure cost them. This is not like a construction detour. Now if it is a long term closure then after some amount of time I believe it is up to the business to move but also with the help from the trucks owner. This can't just keep going on, it would be like paying farmers not to grow certain crops.

While they are public waters these are businesses and not recreational fishermen. They pay for a portion of the resource that they can then make money on. It is not like you or me going and buying a fishing license. Even with that if you tell recreational fishermen that 'their' lake has been damaged and they will sound very possessive of the fish, and they have far less of their lives invested in it. These people have hundreds of thousands if not millions invested into equipment to do one kind of job and another business caused damages to an area that made the others business hard or impossible to do. It doesn't matter what or where it is.

Say you own a delivery company with one truck, it's a small delivery company.
This is not like a storm crashing a tree onto your delivery van, it is like your neighbor cutting down a tree in their backyard and it hitting your delivery van because they didn't top it off first. One you pay the other they should pay.

Tim
 
I agree! BP should pay for business losses. But this should be done just as it would be for any other business. If a truck spilled haz materials then I would recoup from their insurance and I would expect that it would be mediated by a judge if need be. The difference is that much of the media is expressing this as though they are poor fisherman and BP is somehow screwing them.
I just don't like the victimization of anyone and thats how it's coming off to me.
As far as the media and clean up efforts not having an economic effect I just don't buy it. I'll see if I can find some facts to back this up, and I'm not saying it completely offsets the industries affected but having Katie Courek fly around in a helicopter must have brought some money to the region.
 
http://www.natchezdemocrat.com/news/2010/jul/02/volunteers-left-out-gulf-oil-spill-cleanup/


Here is an article from the Natchez Democrat. So Dutch please don't simply say that "no" boats are being used in the clean up.
BP took a risk and lost and is paying for it. The fishermen took a risk and they lost because of BP so BP should pay for their losses.


NEW ORLEANS (AP) — Many fishing boats signed up to skim oil sit idle in marinas. Some captains and deckhands say they have been just waiting around for instructions while drawing checks from BP of more than $1,000 a day per vessel. Thousands of offers to clean beaches and wetlands have gone unanswered.
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More than 2,000 boats have signed up for oil-spill duty under BP’s Vessel of Opportunity program. The company pays boat captains and their crews a flat fee based on the size of the vessel, ranging from $1,200 to $3,000 a day, plus a $200 fee for each crew member who works an eight-hour day.

Rocky Ditcharo, a shrimp dock owner in Buras, La., said many fishermen hired by BP have told him that they often park their boats on the shore while they wait for word on where to go.

‘‘They just wait because there’s no direction,’’ Ditcharo said. He said he believes BP has hired many boat captains ‘‘to show numbers.’’

‘‘But they’re really not doing anything,’’ he added. He also said he suspects the company is hiring out-of-work fishermen to placate them with paychecks.
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The difference is that much of the media is expressing this as though they are poor fisherman and BP is somehow screwing them.
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But BP did & is screwing them by shutting down their businesses.
Sure, some of them were/are working on response. But many did not get that chance and most are waiting on claims to get paid. Many of these guys lived on the money they make during the spring and summer fishing season and now they have lost that income.
And its not just guys who own the boats. The women that worked in the shrimp & oyster shops are out of work, the guys that drove the truck is out of work. The family who owned the processing plant has lost their income. The ship supply stores, electonics, diesel repair & marine refrigeration mechanics are out of work. Sure some of the local hotels, restaurants & gas stations are profitting from the response workers, but overall, this spill has devastated a lot of our economy down here at what should have been our peak season.
 
Sorry guys...guess I'm just tired. Been unemployed as a Director of Retail planning for a year now. Folks just stopped going to the mall so there are less of us needed. It paid very well and was what I have been doing for 15 years.

So now I need to figure out something new to do. I'm not complaining and I haven't expected a Gov't handout so I'm a little short with those that appear to be asking for something.
Life's not fair and for sure if you are wronged by another than seek your justice and compensation from the court system. But give them a chance to make good before you bitch about BP to the media.
And for the guys that were living hand to mouth and can't wait for a settlement, they were probably not in the right business. Fishing, farming, spec house building, real Estate,...these are not business you should be in if you can't live for a season without pay.
 
My bottom line is this:
BP's lack of adherance to industry standards (that most if not all of the other drilling companies abide by) is BP's downfall.

You cut corners, you may get away with it. BP didn't on this drill. Obama cut 'em all off.
South Louisiana is not an oil economy!!!
you read correctly, we aren't an oil economy, we are an oil field service economy. Those guys rather than the fishermen are working on clean-up. (yeah its a generalization) The relationships are already there and that is how business is done.

The spill, IMHO, is not nearly as bad as the cluster _____ of the aftermath. BP appears to have covered up the extent of the leak. and then the 24 hour idiots showed up with nothing else to report, they wanted destroyed lives to show. They found some, heck they were easy to find and they exploited those stories. They paid their anchor of reporter to go find oil and stories. They can't find a big blob anymore so you don't hear anything much anymore on the 24 hour channels. They found something more interesting. I suppose the congressional oil spill of Charlie Rangel and whoever the gal is from CA.

Maybe I'm a bit sensitive here.
I have family in New Orleans that are directly tied to the marine industry. Katrina hit them hard and they have not come back up to speed anywhere down there. BP hit one of the remaining legs out, both of those kicked out another leg by killing tourism and Obama's moratorium kicked out another leg, and then Avondale announced they are closing their New Orleans facility that employees 15,000 people.

I've been helping relocate some families to new jobs in the northern part of the state but the whole state is on the ropes. BP is part of it but aftermath...
 
And for the guys that were living hand to mouth and can't wait for a settlement, they were probably not in the right business. Fishing, farming, spec house building, real Estate,...these are not business you should be in if you can't live for a season without pay.
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This statement truely shows that you have no understanding what so ever of lives of the individuals, businesses and fishing communities impacted by the disaster caused by BP.
 
And for the guys that were living hand to mouth and can't wait for a settlement, they were probably not in the right business. Fishing, farming, spec house building, real Estate,...these are not business you should be in if you can't live for a season without pay.
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This statement truely shows that you have no understanding what so ever of lives of the individuals, businesses and fishing communities impacted by the disaster caused by BP.
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You are correct. I don't know the lives of the individuals in Alabama. Just as you have no idea how watching James Carville yell that people are dying down there affects unemployed workers in Michigan or here in New Hampshire. This is my opinion thats all... This is the last I will post on this.
 
Well, I'll defer to the locals with regard to local environmental and economic impacts, but given the scale of the spill, it's hard to believe the impacts are not going to be significant.

Maybe this is a bad analogy, but my guess is that the current situation, in terms of the health of the Gulf, is about where a victim of a serious car accident would be at the point where they've been pulled out the wreck, transported to the hospital, and the emergency and trauma folks have stopped the bleeding, stitched them up, and set the broken bones. But we don't know yet how well everything will heal, and there may very well be complications during the recovery process.

Chances are there is a long road to recovery ahead, and it may well be years before we have any idea how significant the short and long term impacts will turn out to be.

However, at close to 200 million gallons of oil (either the largest or the second largest spill ever into marine waters, from the sources I consider reliable) spilled into one of the most productive, ecologically and economically important ocean areas in the world, it's likely that the impacts will turn out to be substantial.

It's depressing to me to see this turning so quickly into a Fox News vs MSNBC set of talking points.

DU has some good information available on its website.

http://www.ducks.org/conservation/oilspill/
 
these are not business you should be in if you can't live for a season without pay.
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That is why all those fishing boats were out there right up until they closed the water and are ready to go as soon as they open it back up. Another business caused them harm and is stopping them from working and making money. These kind of people do not take seasons off. If something happened to them they would sell their business, unfortunately nobody is going to buy when all of them can't fish.

I know of very few farmers who could take a season without bringing in any money and still having to pay insurance and upkeep. They still have a lot of expenses with everything just sitting there. Most of the food producers in this part of the country are that way.
I bet 50%, heck maybe 75% of small businesses in this country can not go more then a few months without money coming in. I'm not talking about making money but having no cash flow in at all.

BP isn't going the court route right now for a couple reasons in my opinion. First it is not up to them it are those effected who are not taking it to court in large numbers yet. They likely are hoping things will work out and they won't have to hire lawyers. Also BP knows they would lose so it is better for them to try to manage it themselves, even if it is badly run. You never know what a judge would rule. BP is basically settling claims out of court.

Second there is no insurance for something this big. The claims are going to be paid for from the profits and selling off assets of the company. BP would rather decide what to sell then have a court order it.

Tim
 
you have no idea how watching James Carville yell that people are dying down there affects unemployed workers in Michigan or here in New Hampshire.
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Can I think that James Carville is an idiot AND that there are probably substantial impacts from this spill?

I'll take DU's experts over Carville's opinions any day.
 
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