Old boat restoration advice needed

Rick Kyte

Rick Kyte

Well-known member
I've got a buddy who is restoring an old cedar strip and canvas boat. He's removing the paint and canvas from the hull and is planning to replace it with glass cloth and epoxy. Somebody who claims to know about boats told him not to epoxy the interior wood, so that the moisture will be able to able to escape. He's thinking of coating the interior with tung oil.

I told him to epoxy the interior and then coat with spar varnish.

To encapsulate or not to encapsulate. That is the question.

Rick
 
I've had the same question about the Merrymeeting Scull I am restoring. It is currently glassed on the outside but not the inside. There seem to be two camps here. If you ask that question on one of the canoe forums, most of the canoe builders seem to suggest glassing only the outside, and leaving the inside uncoated to allow any moisture to escape. They fear getting water caught between two layers of glass, and this leading to rapid rot of the wood in between.

It's also the case that wood/canvas canoes were intended to have a waterproof coating on the outside, and were painted or varnished on the inside. Finally, I suspect that if he asked that question on a canoe forum, the first response would be: "Don't glass the outside either. The boat should stay canvased."

The duck boat camp over here does not have this prejudice against glass, and seems to suggest glassing the outside and sealing the inside.

My concern is that the interior of a wood canvas canoe, or of my scull, which is strip built, is difficult to seal completely.

I still haven't decided what to do with my interior, and am interested in the responses here.
 
I would go far enough out on a limb to state...it is impossible to completely encapsulate wood in a boat. The movement of the wood with temperature changes will most definitely crack the encapsulation and allow water in and it will never get out. Even if there are no breaks, water will move through the encapsulation anyhow...it is slightly porous and the vapor passes through.

If you want to cover the outside with glass, paint the inside or treat with Cuprinol to prevent rot as long as it's not in "touchable" areas.

I once "surveyed" a 60 footer for a fella. This boat had a hull thickness of 1.5" and was encapsulated but I don't recall the manufacturer. After checking the boat out, I recommended that he not buy the boat. In fact, I told him not to get it even if it was free. When I poked any place on the boat with an awl...water flowed out. The water got into the layers, couldn't get out and rotted the entire hull...and the super structure. The only thing holding the boat together was the water it was sitting in.

Another buddy of mine (worked part time for me) who worked full time in the boat repair shop at one of our local marinas had one of those boats come in for work. When they lifted the boat out of the water, the entire boat collapsed on itself. It was a total loss due to rot from water trapped by the encapsulation process.
Lou
 
Ok, Lou's over in the "canoe camp". LOL!

Lou--My concern with NOT sealing the interior is that as the wood swells with temperature and moisture changes, it may crack the glass on the exterior. Indeed, cracks that may have been caused by this are precisely why I'm spending my weekend stripping glass right now instead of testing out my new boat.

Would I be better off to not use epoxy and glass on the exterior, and try canvas instead? I'm concerned about durability, of course, but most of the places I'll use this boat have sand or mud bottom, and good canvas can take a considerable amount of abuse.
 
I would go far enough out on a limb to state...it is impossible to completely encapsulate wood in a boat. The movement of the wood with temperature changes will most definitely crack the encapsulation and allow water in and it will never get out. Even if there are no breaks, water will move through the encapsulation anyhow...it is slightly porous and the vapor passes through.

If you want to cover the outside with glass, paint the inside or treat with Cuprinol to prevent rot as long as it's not in "touchable" areas.

I once "surveyed" a 60 footer for a fella. This boat had a hull thickness of 1.5" and was encapsulated but I don't recall the manufacturer. After checking the boat out, I recommended that he not buy the boat. In fact, I told him not to get it even if it was free. When I poked any place on the boat with an awl...water flowed out. The water got into the layers, couldn't get out and rotted the entire hull...and the super structure. The only thing holding the boat together was the water it was sitting in.

Another buddy of mine (worked part time for me) who worked full time in the boat repair shop at one of our local marinas had one of those boats come in for work. When they lifted the boat out of the water, the entire boat collapsed on itself. It was a total loss due to rot from water trapped by the encapsulation process.
Lou
Click to expand...


I agree 100% with Lou. On a stitch and glue boat we get them encapsulated pretty good because of the mimimum number of joints and the tape on every joint and "rib", but on a boat with lots of ribs strip built, forget it. The boat is giogn to get wet and it needs to be able to dry.

T
 
I don't like the way this thread is going. You guys are going to cost me a fine bottle of single-malt.

Aren't there any experts out there who will back up my bad advice?

Rick
 
I am going out on a limb also, maybe even with a noose around my neck,,,so here goes....

Coat the inside of the boat with CPES (1-2) coats then varnish or paint. The CPES will not completely encapsulate the wood but it is a very thin, 2 part epoxy that soaks into the wood. One-two coat gives an appearance similar to a single coat of varnish on unsealed wood---it soaks in. CPES helps prevent further water damage, stabilizes rot, and provides an excellent surface for paint or varnish. I use it on most old boat repairs, old wood windows being restored, old doors, anything exterior that needs restoration and I want to last...so far so good...

For varnish I would use Epifanes gloss clear varnish, or ZSpar Flagship,, both traditional marine spar
 
Hello everyone. I am new to this forum and hail from the Eastern Shore of Maryland with my waterfowling origins on Cape Cod many years ago. I have enjoyed reading the posts here and appreciate the "attitude" on this forum vs the "waterfowl smackdown" attitudes on other forums that I have visited.

I am responding to Rick's question because I am also interested in wood canvas canoes and have done some restoration work.

If your buddy's boat has any historical value and is restorable, I would not glass it. Fiberglass is a quick fix, but if the boat requires repair such as plank or rib replacement down the road, the sheathing must be removed........a major problem with fiberglass.

Replacing canvas is not very difficult. If he is interested in more information, I would recommend getting involved with the forums at The Wooden Canoe Heritage Assoc. www.wcha.org. There is a wealth of knowledge there and folks are very willing to share information. There are also a couple of good books on wooden canoe construction/restoration by Jerry Stelmok and Rollin Thurlow.

Hope this helps.

Matt
 
Oh for the love of God, it finally hit here.....CPES....Now let the whole debate hit.

Rick, if you have lots of money, want to pour it down a drain and smell horrible chemicals and need for real respirators, use that stuff. Arguements made for it
1. Thinned down epoxy so it should flow into the wood fibers through capilary action better, thus sealing the wood better. Ask Mr. Smith the proprietor of it, he will sell you as much as you want.

Cons:
1. Just thinned epoxy with lots of solvents. Once the solvents evaporate, what is left in the matrix of the epoxy? small microscopic channels that actually hold water.
2. cost
3. West system and others have denounced it/thinning their epoxies for this vary reason. (see number 1) along with the fact that you loose any strength because the matrix is now more brittle, thus if there are any movements of the wood (say paddling in a river or heck, seasonal wood movements) they will break as well.
4. cost
5. Use regular epoxy on wood, Let it cure, cut it, see how far it penetrated. Now try thinning some, heck, 10%, then 20% even up to 50%, you will be shocked at how little it "penetrated"
6. Cost
7. Smells (secondary to the high solvent load)

Some will purpose it is a good sealant or primer to use prior to paint. There is some validity to that secondary to the matrix issue mentioned above.

Want some other fun, check out WoodenBoat Forum and search CPES and see some truly epic battles that make some of the spats on here look tame.

Matt, no attack on you, just on the product.

Rick, if it is an old boat that you are trying to get a few more years, go for it. Pull it out of the water and let it dry between use, understanding it may eventually rot. If you do nothing, it will rot. ( I suppose you could put it into dry storage for years, but then why bother)

good luck either way.
 
Yes Eric I have heard all the wars,,read the wars... I will only say this...I would not thin West...and yes CPES has high solvents....is the product worth the money? I will let you know in 5-25 years when I cut open some of the items I have used it on...Is it the perfect product? No...Do I think the product has been miss used? of course. Is it the end all cure all? No Is it a solution to a problem? maybe....is it worth using? I think I will leave that up to the person restoring the boat or item. I have used it and have had no nightmares over doing so, plus the spar varnishes seem to hold up longer (maybe I am crazy also).. Will I use it again? yes (but remember I am crazy)

Now As far as MR Smith? I will let him defend his product how ever he wishes....
 
Rick,

Time you a run to the liquer store for you. I'm in the "let it breath" camp as well. My grassing rails are treated with linseed oil as a finish just so they will breath and dry out. I figured they will get dinged and then water intrusion so why try to encapsolate with epoxy. They have been fine now going on six years. No paint or anything other than the linseed oil.
 
Not knowing the exact condition of the canoe. That determines what should be done. If is for example a Old town where the wood is in good condition no dry rot. I would canvas it again. Bringing the canoe to the original condition. It would put the value of the canoe much higher. Weight is a consideration too.

If the canoe is rather beat up and cannot be brought to mint condition. Broken wood, some dry rot, sway back. Then fiber glass the outside. Sand and varnish the inside. This will be a usable canoe for many years. Eventually the fiber glass will delaminate from the wood. I base this on two things. One thirty years ago I worked in a shipyard where the were making mine sweepers and talked to a navel engineer and he was explaining the problems of fiber glass delaminating from wood. This was white oak. The fiber glass and the wood did not expand at the same rate. We are talking large surfaces. Also the resin not soaking in to the oak ? Now that was thirty years ago and the chemistry of fiber glassing I am sure has been improved.

Two, I have a old town canoe which should have been canvassed but instead was fiber glassed. After many years it delaminated . At first some cracks above the water line then lager areas. How long will the fiber glassing last. I will guess with reasonable care ten, twenty years. That might be completely acceptable. How long will a good canoe last ? My folks bought the canoe used in 1948 It was used a lot by our family.
 
I've never been able to get epoxy to stick to white oak. Resorcinol glue on the other hand, sticks pretty good and is great for laminating white oak. Just need to use it when it is warm and use clamps.


Nate
 
Okay, I give up. No epoxy on the inside.

I'll convey to my buddy the pros/cons of glass and epoxy on the outside. I'm not sure how (or how much) he intends to use the boat once he completes the restoration. I'm sure that will influence whether he decides to replace the canvas or go with glass on the hull.

By the way, it is an 18' fishing boat, not a canoe. I guess I didn't make that clear at the beginning.

I appreciate all the advice.

Rick
 
I'll add my thanks to Rick's, and a thank you to Rick for my (hopefully not too significant) hijack. I prefer to think of it as a "shared ride", which sounds much nicer than "hijack". A "hitch hike", perhaps?

I'd love to hear more about that boat. Being from Maine, I see a lot of old wood canvas canoes, as well as various adaptations that were more boat-like, like the Rangeley boat, the Grand Laker canoe, and some boats that Old Town made when motors started coming on the market.
 
Rick, contact Alex Nimphius and ask his opinion. The Nimphius family (father and son) have been building wood boats (Nimphius Boats, Inc.) for over 90 years and considered one of the finest wood boats made. They are located in Neshkoro, Wisconsin. Many of their boats cost over$100,000. Ask Alex about epoxy on the interior. Red (deceased father) always said if he encapsulated boats, he would have had to find a different line of work.

It is known by many cottage owners, if you want to shorten your dock's life, seal all sides.
 
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