Rifle accuracy questions

A

Andrew Holley

Well-known member
I have a 223 Howa 1500 with a Tasco varmint scope on it.

At 100 yards with factory ammo, I am getting 1" groups consistantly, at 200 yards I am averaging about 2" groups with an occansional 1 1/4" groups and at 300 yards about 3 1/2" groups.

Is this good, average or poor? I am assuming the rifle is capable of more, and I need to improve my shooting skills.

If I start hand loading, how much improvement would I see?
 
I'd say you are easily doing better then average. Some guns just aren't going to shoot much better then that, I've heard some good things about Howa so you never know. If you are calling coyotes you are all set as 300 yards would be pushing it anyways. For sitting on a prairie dog town you might want to improve it a little. For shooting paper you always want to improve it.
Don't know about reloading. I know there can be a big difference between factory loads so even if you don't reload try several brands and bullet weights.

Tim
 
Hard to say definatively but generally you can expect better accuracy and consistency by hand loading. How many different brands, bullet wts., etc. have you tried. Every barrel is different. You might find better accuracy out of a certain brand of factory ammo. Out of a Howa I'd expect better than 1 moa maybe 1/2 moa or better.
Then again maybe it already is and it's your shooting that is holding you back.
 
"Then again maybe it already is and it's your shooting that is holding you back"

Thanks for the encourgement Pete, LOL. But I think your right, looking at my groups I generally have two shots that are about 1/2" apart and then one out.

I have tried about 8 different types of ammo, with about four different brand names then different weight bullets. I am doing slightly better with Fiocchi 55Grs. FMJ over the Black Hills 55 Grs. FMJ, and the Fiocchi is about 1/2 the cost.

I also took out my Savage 17 HMR, measuring my groups, I got several at 3/4" at 100 yards, for fun I tried one group at 200 yards, but missed the paper completely, assuming too much drop?
 
Rifle accuracy is a combination of many variables.


Here are some:
  1. The shooter
  2. The wind, and weather
  3. Bore condition
  4. Stock configuration and the relationship to the action and barrel----free floated and glass bedding
  5. Barrel length and stiffness
  6. Cartridge (some are inherently are more accurate)
  7. Lighting conditions
  8. Bullet weight
  9. Bullet shape
  10. Powder Selection
  11. Brand of ammunition
  12. Primer selection
  13. Case condition --and is the case concentric with the chamber and bore
  14. Case preperation ---do you only neck size? do you turn the neck? and so forth
  15. Throat length in relation to bullet length and bullet shape
And so on and so forth----

You need to define your objective and what you want to use the rifle for...If you are hunting running jack rabbits 1" accruacy is closer then 99% of shooter/hunters can shoot at such a target...

So can your rifle shoot better? most likely...but you need to only change the variables you can control one at a time so you know what produces the best accuracy in your rifle... I would start with your action and barrel bedding...check to see if the bedding is ok on the action and if the barrel is free floating...Then shoot with the round you get 1" from...did anything change? if not try a difernt ammo..

Relaoding used to be the best way to increase accuracy, but over the last 20 years the manufactuers have been increasing the quality of their product.....so the answer is maybe...Realoading is fun though and can give great satisfaction and is darn addicting if you catch the bug bad..


So you only you can decide what is "good" enough, just keep realistic objectives.

Matt


 
I have a friend who is a excellent competition shooter and all the things Matt wrote I have heard talked about. A couple more, do you have a shooting jacket ? Also can you control your heart beat, slow it down. The devil is in the details. Shooting can be a passion. I think you are doing pretty good now. Too lock down all the variables will cost a lot of time and money.
 
I could have added more variables....I wanted to give the idea that to track down each varible and the impact on accuracy becomes a time consumer and money pig....not that it isn't fun....Pete is correct...you are doing fairly good....

Good luck and enjoy the rifle...

Matt
 
not to hack on your equipment but i have never heard to many praises of the tasco scopes. the howa rifle on the other hand has been quoted as one of the best shooting platforms ever made.

as a few have said it could be a combination of many things but the scope issue had not been brought up.

i once had a bushnell 3-9x40 on a 22mag that would shoot stone cold dead on with the scope turned to 6x but when cranked up to 9x would shoot 2"+ to the left at 50 yards.

are you cleaning between groups?

eddie
 
I clean the gun when i am done shooting and oil lightly. I have seen shooters clean after each group, but that's father then I want to go.

I bought the Tasco years ago, because i wanted a mil dot scope, for $100 I am happy with it. I would like to move up to a Les Bear varmint gun and then get a much better scope, but I think it's going to be awhile before I can do that.
 
I believe you are doing well with factory ammo,and a untuned rifle,with probably a trigger that could be improved.The twist rate is a consideration,as to how accurately it will shoot the heavier bullets.If you intend to shoot varmits,you may want to test some bullets designed for that purpose.Just paper,the FMJ is fine and cheaper.More bench time will get your groups more consistant.First change I would make is a good trigger,or a smith that can work on that one.
 
All of Matt's list are really good points for fine tuning a rifle.

One of the things that reloading will do for the gun and its perceived accuracy is fine tune it to a specific bullet type. There will be a lot of variation in the chamber size, rifling dimensions, and case dimensions. All of these things will cause a small amount of "play" in the behavior of the bullet.

Reloading will allow you to fine tune the last few controllable conditions that affect the bullet. A few grains of power less or more than a published load can really improve accuracy. You don't have to take it to the extremes of bench rest competition or USMC snipers.

Years ago my dad and I bought 788s in 223. I put a Tasco 3x9 on mine and I think dad did the same or found a Burris 3x9. Both rifles shot ball ammo well. Both shot factory varmint ammo well. About as good as your Howa.

A few years later Dad found some bulk 55g boattail softpoints for sale and bought a couple thousand in a few boxes. While I was home on holiday we built up a hand load for my 788. One clover shaped hole at 100 yards. I could hit shotgun cases at 150 consistently. I never really stretched it out past that range. However the same load in Dad's 788 was pretty useless. He had to build a load up that had a few grains more powder in order to get similar performance.
 
Your gun is shooting into 1 minute of angle,(mostly) or 1" at 100 yds, that's 3" at 300 yds, it's doing all it can with the parameters your using now.
To get it better then that, you'll need to get your 100 yd groups under 1".
Then all you got to worry about is the zillion other things that can affect accuracy.
 
I just came in from working up a new rifle to ready it for the range to see what it will do and found your question. I'll tell you what I just did for starts.

clean the barrel
remove stock
adjust trigger to 3#
replace stock without final tightening and leaving the rear action screw loose
tighten some the front screw and bang the butt on the ground to set the recoil lug against the stock
tighten the front screw to 40 inchpounds (65 inchpounds if pillar or glass bedded)
tighten the rear screw to same

That is where I start

Matt n Barb's list is all very well, but most of these are very small influences and are not readily doable. Still, I think your rifle will tighten up by half. You should, with that bore size, strive for 1/2" at 100 yards. Most factory cartridges, especially the premium brands, will shoot as good as reloads, but you will have to find the brand that works best in your gun to get reload performance.

From the MNB list above, the wind and your shooting ability will be the biggest influences on your shooting, but I think your limiting factor currently is the scope. I had a "$100" tasco on my Remington 700 30-06 that would do 1.5 MOA (not bad for a sporter in that caliber) but with flyers in every group. Any adjustment I did was very imprecise and variable as to the POI. I replaced the tasco with a Leupold Vari-X II (not even their top of the line Vari-X III) 3x9. My groups went to 1 MOA and were consistant without flyers. If it is not because of your shooting, and it shouldn't be if you are shooting of sandbags, the irratic shots in your groups are from the reticle not seating consistantly on the erector springs after each shot. Buy, borrow or steal a quality scope (Leupold, Kahles, Swarovski, Zeiss, Nightforce, or Burris Signature line) and see if this helps. I like to move my windage and elevations in only one direction to eliminate any backlash from my adjustments. To be consistant, I move in the direction of the up and right arrows (or whatever arrows are marked on the scope) For example, if I need to move my POI down 1 inch, I move it down eight clicks (1/4" per click) and then up four so that I alway approach the adjustment from one direction. In this case, up.

Give it a try and see what happens. Hopefully, it will put the rest of the list off your priorities. As a rule of thumb, you should spend as much on your scope as you do your rifle. Currently, the consensus among the shooters I lurk with, the Bushnell 3200 and 4200 lines are the mostest for the leastest.
 
Last edited:
My my the variables of rifle accuracy........

Yes some have greater influence than others....and some are an exercise in exacting precision reloading that produce results that maybe only warranted by the most persnickety benchrest shooter...

As for scopes.....I have used cheap to expensive.....the ground squirrels never really knew. But I sure did...some cheaper scopes shot well, and some did not....

I used to spend considerable time building rifles, reloading, and even swagging my own bullets of my own design (Lucky I had a good machinist buddy that traded with me), and then shooting and shooting and shooting.... but alas life changes.

All in all the suggestions given throughout the thread all have merit....just pick a starting point and be consistent, one variable at a time keeping exacting records or you may never know exactly what made said rifle shoot and what didn't....
 
Last edited:
You say the first two shots are about 1/2" and the third is 1"+?
Someone else can probably answer this better than I, but is the
barrell heating and "throwing" the third shot? Is the 3rd shot consistently the
flyer?

P.S. I just wish I could shoot with than accuracy. I am of no help for that.
 
Your Howa is capable of better accuracy than that. A better scope would help. Have you shot the gun with it locked down in somethig like a Caldwell Lead Sled? If not, try one and let the barrell cool completely between shots. If you are going to be serious about smalll groups at long distances you will need to think about a better scope and handloads. By the way, it is possible to buy a GOOD scope, Zeiss, Kahles, etc used and save a LOT of money. I'd also have someone else shoot it and see how they do. Good luck.
 
I didn't keep track of which shot was the flyer. I fired three shots, switched to the 17 HMR, shot three with it and then back to the Howa.

I did put my hand on the barrel (bull barrel) and it was still cold after the three rounds were fired.

I shot the gun from sand bags, but did not have it in a sled or anything like that.

Yes, I need to put a new scope on it. Sounds like a good birthday present
 
Until you shoot from some sort of "lead sled", and perhaps use some sort of remote trigger pull, to take shooter variables out of the picture how do you know what the gun is capable all by itself?
 
A 223 isn't exactly a butt-kicker but I'd agree that taking a look at your three-shot protocol would be worthwhile to see if you have a flinch or are rushing and punching that third shot. Having a gunsmith drop the trigger down to 3-3.5# would be the first on my list of hardware adjustments.
 
Don't be tempted to drop the trigger pull below 3 lbs if you are hunting with it....I have one rifle what is 1.5 lbs....a tad light for general hunting, but oh so nice for the range. Just keep your finger out of the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot..

I used the rifle for hunting rock chucks and ground squirrels. Now don't ask why I used a 308 for that...I will just say that I owned it and had no money for a traditional varminter, so it did the job very well thank you.


Matt
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top