Scary moment down at the lake this afternoon…

Just so I get this straight.....your logic is: If you want a dog to be able to hunt in Cold Water, you have to train in Cold Water?

Scenario #1: You head out to train some water blinds. You set up a 250 yard down the shore water blind in January (Cold Water Conditions). You send your dog and he keeps looking to run the shore. What is your correction to keep him in the water? Is he looking to run the shore because of Lack of effort or is he looking to run the shore because he is cold? At this point, how do you tell the difference? (Since you guys have been training for 30 plus years, I am curious to hear your responses, so I can adjust my training).
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I'm saying if he is going to hunt in cold water, there is no reason NOT to train in cold water. I'm also talking typical hunting retrieves, 50 yards or less. But I also think you have to use a modicum of intelligence and common sense when training. I've run HRC Hunt Tests with my dog; he received his HR "Seasoned" title in straight passes with a rank amateur handler, (me). Would I ever train for a 250 yard blind, as you described? Absolutely not. By the same token I wouldn't even consider sending him on a 250 yard water blind in typical winter conditions of January either; I would be smart enough to use the boat. But that's just me.
 
Just so I get this straight.....your logic is: If you want a dog to be able to hunt in Cold Water, you have to train in Cold Water?

Scenario #1: You head out to train some water blinds. You set up a 250 yard down the shore water blind in January (Cold Water Conditions). You send your dog and he keeps looking to run the shore. What is your correction to keep him in the water? Is he looking to run the shore because of Lack of effort or is he looking to run the shore because he is cold? At this point, how do you tell the difference? (Since you guys have been training for 30 plus years, I am curious to hear your responses, so I can adjust my training).
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Andrew in your nightmare training scenario are we hunting or at a trial? Don't confuse the two. Is he running the bank because he knows he can get it done,or his he swimming because you've corrected him sooo many times he won't even look at the bank. I hear terms like ;pressure,correction,refusal,bad taste and it sounds like you don't consider it training if he doesn't get adose of e-collar. Cold water training is as much about conditioning as it is anything else. Throwing bumpers for 4 dogs on an honoring drill is quite different from your example. You were concerned about the novice trainer yet you set up a training example that would put both dog and handler in danger. Way to go. Lastly your swipe at Jon and Howard's years of training I found rather rude. After all this thread was about how thankful Jon was to have his dog back safe. Please ,don't piss down my leg and tell me it's raining:)))
 
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Guy's I must admit I thought the exact same thing as Andrew when I read this post. I would never train in cold water. Throwing some fun bumpers off a point O.k. But why would I not do this on dry land. After reading some of the dog threads on here I smell alot of B.S.
 
Sorry guys, I am having a hard time letting this go. So, just in case...

In most cases, there is a big difference between playful frolicking, (we do that in the yard), training for Field Trials and Hunting. That's why I stated earlier something like "occasionally on a Sunday I'll train with the boys". I've trained with field trial guys for 200-300 yard retrieves. In my hunting scenarios, I don't have the patience for that. Anything near that far and I fire up the motor. I would much rather be hunting than watching my dog swim for half an hour.

I can't imagine when I would ever send my companion on a 250 yard retrieve in that kind of weather either. That's why I have a boat. It’s much safer and faster for that matter. I know guys who do it. I've hunted with well-known guides who have sent their dogs on cripples that far, in fair weather, BUT they never took their eyes off of the dog either. A lot of that is conditioning. These same guides hunt most every day. The dogs are used to it.

As far as running the shore, this is where my opinion may differ from others. In a "Hunting" situation, I want my dog to make the retrieve as fast as possible and with as little effort as necessary. If I drop a duck that lands a long ways down the shoreline, I would want her to run the shore as far as she can to cut the angle. Even though she is a fast swimmer, she runs about ten times faster than she swims. In field trials, however, that's a definite NO-NO. The dog is supposed to take a direct, straight line to the fall. I am not real familiar with HRC Hunt Tests.

And just for the record, I never have, nor will I ever use a shock or electronic training collar of any type and my dogs have all turned out OK. While I don’t have a problem with raising my voice once in a while, my training and our work outs have always been more of a positive nature. Old school requires a little more patience, but that’s OK with me. My dogs sleep on the floor next to my bed.

Everybody has opinions. My dogs are far from perfect, but we enjoy each other’s company. They are great family members and companions. Occasionally they even get to earn their keep by retrieving a duck or two.

Thanks for the replies and opinions.

This redundancy is getting boring…

Jon
 
Jon,
Had two dogs out same day same,same conditions. One is 12yrs and the other is 3yrs. It was a beautiful day for a walk
as you know and the storm came out of nowhere. I was walking the lake shore and yes I had a couple bumpers. The dogs
don't know how to act if they don't have something to retrieve. We're not training concepts here just exercising dogs
that lay around all too often.
Enjoy whatever season this is!! John
 
Kevin B - You have clearly not read my post very well. Your response makes absoultely no sense! But I will humor you and answer your questions:

Andrew in your nightmare training scenario are we hunting or at a trial?
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Neither, if you read my post, I said it was a training setup!


Is he running the bank because he knows he can get it done,
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In my senario, I clearly said we are running a BLIND. How does he know he can get it done by running the bank if he doesn't know where it is? The dog is clearly disobeying what he's been asked!

or his he swimming because you've corrected him sooo many times he won't even look at the bank.
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Ummm.....in my senario I state that he is looking for shore.......not sure why you would write that.

You were concerned about the novice trainer yet you set up a training example that would put both dog and handler in danger. Way to go
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I need clarification on this............how is this dangerous? I am just going by what you guys stated in your previous posts. You say you train all hunting senarios and all kinds of weather for conditioning, so there are no surprises. Replace the 250 yard blind with a 90 yard blind and I guarantee you get the same results.

Lastly your swipe at Jon and Howard's years of training I found rather rude
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How was my response rude? I think you are way off key here! I was asking for their advice. I always keep an open mind when it comes to dog training.
 
Really?


If you all had Chesapeake Bay Retrievers this discussion would not be taking place they can handle white caps, wind, cold water, and snow with out getting there panties all bunched up!
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:) Sorry Jon I couldn't take any more.
 
I can’t believe the responses of here by some people that obviously haven’t read thru the threads.

Unless this is all a bunch of BS, as some suggest, there definitely seems to be two different schools of thought on the subject. It seems, the difference in the two schools of thought, appear to be between “field trialers” and “hunters”.

I’ve been around a few retriever Hunt Tests and Retriever Field Trials. I’ve even worked at a few. All of the retriever trials I have been to, were run in fair weather. If you’re going to run only in fair weather, I see no reason to condition or train for cold water. Rich, I read over the posts from the link you posted. It appears, from what I’ve read there, that everyone was conversing about “get dogs out yet?” and the like. In my “Duck Hunting world”, I never put my dogs away to be able to consider ”getting them out”. Here in Ohio, our (Goose) season runs pretty much thru January.

So, if there are some rookies out there following this post-

I am not talking about highly regimented training here. I am working with a well-started, experienced dog getting in a little positive field work.

I mistyped my terminology for the word or phrase “training”. I may “train” my dogs from dark to dark 365 days a year in all kinds of weather, or any room of the house for that matter. Sometimes just once a day, perhaps to just have them “stay” as I walk across the living room. Sometimes we’ll go out in the yard and work on a blind retrieve or two. Sometimes we’ll work with “down” when I am having an evening snack in the living room. (once in a while I may even reward them with a little snippet of what I am snacking on). I may work with “heel” before their dinner time. And even sometimes to swim in cold water because we happen to take a drive down to the lake for a little walk.

At the present time, I have an experienced, young adult dog. NOT A NEW PUP. She was born in late October. We picked her up in early December. It was a long time until she was able to swim for the FIRST TIME. Like maybe June. My rule when starting a young pup for their first swim is-it has to be warm enough for me to get in before I introduce her. I like to get in and bond with them in the water. There is NO WAY IN HELL I would introduce a pup to water I am not willing to stand in. And if and when we work out in a nasty environment, I would certainly quit at the first, remote sign of any chill or tiring.

All of this, of course, is the way I do it. It’s worked for me. I get a tremendous amount of enjoyment in hunting with my mutts, whether we’re hunting alone or in a group.

Jon

PS. Tomorrow evening I am going to see “Cesar-The Dog Whisperer-Milan”. I wonder what he would think about all of this?
 
Wow....Seems to me this post got misdirected some how. We're talking about a seasoned dog and a freak situation. I'm sure if Jon could foresee a whiteout snow was about to fall upon them he wouldn't be having his dog making retrieves. Also, with the seasoned relationship with his dog, I'm sure he had enough common sense not to put his dog in a situation that might have discouraged his past training/experience. I see nothing wrong with letting a seasoned dog make these kind of retrieves but not a beginner.
 
I almost did that Craig, but Six said that if ya can't say muthin nice don't say nuthin at all. lol Nice pic
 
After my last post to Craig, i got into the way back machine and recalled a time with my first duck dog. Her name was luv and she never weighted over 54 lbs and didn't reach minimum breed standard untill she was 3. I was working her in the Miami River in Troy, Ohio. we had been working for about 30 min when I sent her on a marked retreive. She lost the mark and was circeling to locat the dummy when the current caught it about the same time she spotted it. I let her go aftter it but it became qiickly became apperaent the dummy would go over the damn befor she got ot it. she wasn't whistle broke at the time (yet) and ended up going over the damn and scaring the living crap out of me. The drop was 8-10 feet and when she surfaced some 10to15 seconds later I thanked every Deiety I could think of for her survival. She shook her head to clear her ears and completed the retrieve.
My point here is not to brag up the dog but to illistrated that most of the time our dogs are a LOT tougher than we give them credit for.

Didn't mean to highjack the thread Jon.
 
Wow....Seems to me this post got misdirected some how. We're talking about a seasoned dog and a freak situation. I'm sure if Jon could foresee a whiteout snow was about to fall upon them he wouldn't be having his dog making retrieves. Also, with the seasoned relationship with his dog, I'm sure he had enough common sense not to put his dog in a situation that might have discouraged his past training/experience. I see nothing wrong with letting a seasoned dog make these kind of retrieves but not a beginner.
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Exactly
 
I almost did that Craig, but Six said that if ya can't say muthin nice don't say nuthin at all. lol Nice pic
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It was a nice statement coming from a Chesapeake type person.
Only stating Facts, nothin deougatory toward anyone, :)
 
Wow.. Scary. I like the fact your training in all conditions. But I think I'm a over protective Dad with my Lab (sometimes). Glad all is ok..
 
Hello everyone.
This is my first post here, but I have plenty of other posts on other forums.
I'm a retriever enthusiast and I've been training for hunting & field trials for 21 years.
Part of my motivation for signing on, is my genuine concern about what I'm reading on this thread.
I'm not here to bash anyone, only to express an opinion.
My first retriever was a golden, when I was 16.
Since then I've trained or helped to train labs goldens flatcoats Tollers and to a lesser extent, Chessies.
The notion that Chessies are tougher, is simply not true. They are just their own dog, like goldens & flats.
When you put a dog in cold water, you begin lowering their body temps. The risk, is the unknown, combined with hypothermia. Dogs won't do much better than you & I in cold water or cold air when wet. By the time you see the dog in trouble, you are probably too late. Hypothermia kills & injures. It shuts down organs slowly.
You won't see too many guys come here & admit that their dog drowned because of their poor judgement, or bad luck, but you can bet it happens every year.
Would you train your dog in gator infested water?
If your training is sound, and the dog understands its job, the weather & water temperature will not matter in the fall & winter. The dog will do the job as well as you taught it in the summer. The dog should not have environmental issues on its mind. That's OUR job as a caring partner. I work my dog in freezing temps, sometimes all day. ut you can bet that there isn't a duck or goose in the water that is worth the risk involved with putting them in cold water unnecessarily.

Lastly, answer this:
What benefit are you realizing in training in the conditions of a cold hunt?
 
Hello everyone.
This is my first post here, but I have plenty of other posts on other forums.
I'm a retriever enthusiast and I've been training for hunting & field trials for 21 years.
Part of my motivation for signing on, is my genuine concern about what I'm reading on this thread.
I'm not here to bash anyone, only to express an opinion.
My first retriever was a golden, when I was 16.
Since then I've trained or helped to train labs goldens flatcoats Tollers and to a lesser extent, Chessies.
The notion that Chessies are tougher, is simply not true. They are just their own dog, like goldens & flats.
When you put a dog in cold water, you begin lowering their body temps. The risk, is the unknown, combined with hypothermia. Dogs won't do much better than you & I in cold water or cold air when wet. By the time you see the dog in trouble, you are probably too late. Hypothermia kills & injures. It shuts down organs slowly.
You won't see too many guys come here & admit that their dog drowned because of their poor judgement, or bad luck, but you can bet it happens every year.
Would you train your dog in gator infested water?
If your training is sound, and the dog understands its job, the weather & water temperature will not matter in the fall & winter. The dog will do the job as well as you taught it in the summer. The dog should not have environmental issues on its mind. That's OUR job as a caring partner. I work my dog in freezing temps, sometimes all day. ut you can bet that there isn't a duck or goose in the water that is worth the risk involved with putting them in cold water unnecessarily.

Lastly, answer this:
What benefit are you realizing in training in the conditions of a cold hunt?
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Scott, I understand that you have a concern. The point that you entered a thread the guys were joking about Chessies. If you can't tell that they were joking, why would anyone trust you to judge anything else?

You are more than welcome to join the community, but take a step back from the keyboard, read what is written carefully and relax.

T
 
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Tod, I know some guys are joking about the toughness of Chessies. Nothing wrong with that.
There are enough references in this thread that indicate people are not joking about training in cold water. The conversation indicates that we should expose them to the conditions in training, that they will have while hunting.
This is not the message that should be sent to new trainers. Even fun bumpers in cold water cannot be justified.
The fact is, high drive retrievers are known for concealing pain & discomfort, in their desire to work. By the time you notice that something is wrong, you may be too late. I have read thoroughly this thread, and I am not upset or uptight, but I appreciate that your advice is well intended. Like mine. Thanks Tod.
I am still seeking an answer to the question.......
What benefit are you realizing in training in the conditions of a cold hunt?

Anyone?
 
Tod, I know some guys are joking about the toughness of Chessies. Nothing wrong with that.
There are enough references in this thread that indicate people are not joking about training in cold water. The conversation indicates that we should expose them to the conditions in training, that they will have while hunting.
This is not the message that should be sent to new trainers. Even fun bumpers in cold water cannot be justified.
The fact is, high drive retrievers are known for concealing pain & discomfort, in their desire to work. By the time you notice that something is wrong, you may be too late. I have read thoroughly this thread, and I am not upset or uptight, but I appreciate that your advice is well intended. Like mine. Thanks Tod.
I am still seeking an answer to the question.......
What benefit are you realizing in training in the conditions of a cold hunt?

Anyone?
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I was attempting to be polite, not my strong suite.

Let me try again... You are an unknown here, jumping into a discussion that has been hashed through sufficiently. You advice was not asked for and I'm sure not wanted or needed by the origional poster. Take your years of experience, overwhelming concern for the "new trainer", and rhetorical bold and italics somewhere else.

T
 
Jeez Tod,
Not much of a welcome for a new guy. Who decided that the discussion has been hashed through sufficiently?
The fact that the discussion is public, invites responses, don't you think? I am not being critical of the origional poster at all. He was good enough to post his experience, for the benefit of others. He shows the same concern that myself & others share for the well being of our dogs. The fact is, this is a waterfowlers site of sorts. People who are new to retrievers are here and can benefit from the experience of others. You may not want my opinion, but I hope you aren't speaking for everyone. Your demeanor seems to say otherwise.
Tod, you haven't offered a response to my bold italisized question. Give it a shot..........
What benefit are you realizing in training in the conditions of a cold hunt?

 
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