Scary moment down at the lake this afternoon…

Jeez Tod,
Not much of a welcome for a new guy. Who decided that the discussion has been hashed through sufficiently?
The fact that the discussion is public, invites responses, don't you think? I am not being critical of the origional poster at all. He was good enough to post his experience, for the benefit of others. He shows the same concern that myself & others share for the well being of our dogs. The fact is, this is a waterfowlers site of sorts. People who are new to retrievers are here and can benefit from the experience of others. You may not want my opinion, but I hope you aren't speaking for everyone. Your demeanor seems to say otherwise.
Tod, you haven't offered a response to my bold italisized question. Give it a shot..........
What benefit are you realizing in training in the conditions of a cold hunt?
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Don't expect a warm fuzzy reception with you come to stir shit in a dead thread with a bold and italics challenge.
 
Tod, is that how you greet all new comers? You have offered zero input on this discussion!

I thnk Scott has a legit question and I am curious to hear the responses.
 
Don't expect a warm fuzzy reception with you come to stir shit in a dead thread with a bold and italics challenge.




Sorry you feel that way Tod, but I'm willing to bet others can see the value in this topic.
What sh!t am I stirring up? If you have nothing but rage to contribute here, maybe you should move along.
If you have something to say related to your cold water training program, I'm interested.

Neoprene Vests:
My dogs were vests while hunting the great lakes from mid October until seasons end.
You still have to watch for signs of them slowing down etc. but vests help prolong a dogs resistance to cold in a big way.
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Tod, I know some guys are joking about the toughness of Chessies. Nothing wrong with that.
There are enough references in this thread that indicate people are not joking about training in cold water. The conversation indicates that we should expose them to the conditions in training, that they will have while hunting.
This is not the message that should be sent to new trainers. Even fun bumpers in cold water cannot be justified.
The fact is, high drive retrievers are known for concealing pain & discomfort, in their desire to work. By the time you notice that something is wrong, you may be too late. I have read thoroughly this thread, and I am not upset or uptight, but I appreciate that your advice is well intended. Like mine. Thanks Tod.
I am still seeking an answer to the question.......
What benefit are you realizing in training in the conditions of a cold hunt?

Anyone?
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I was attempting to be polite, not my strong suite.

Let me try again... You are an unknown here, jumping into a discussion that has been hashed through sufficiently. You advice was not asked for and I'm sure not wanted or needed by the origional poster. Take your years of experience, overwhelming concern for the "new trainer", and rhetorical bold and italics somewhere else.

T
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As being polite is not your strong suite, keeping my mouth shut isn't mine. I'm curious Tod, who ordained you with the right to tell a new member to "go somewhere else"? Every member here was a "newbie" once without an extended track record of posts. We all started out that way. Who are you to judge whether someone should be able to offer their opinion on a subject?
 
Cold water training.

A lot of hard core waterfowlers here. I am more hard core than some, and not nearly as much as others. It’s tough to make more than one or two things a huge priority and do well at all of them. My duck boat is pretty basic. I spend my time training dogs because that’s what I like. When I was more of a duck hunter than a dog trainer I was of the opinion that you should train in the conditions you will see in a hunt.
Some experienced duck hunters will say I’m over the top, and this is all elitist BS.
Fine, do what works for you.
For those new to dogs, I hope you consider my opinion.
Training in cold water:
Andrew K is dead nuts on.
If you train in cold water, you are more likely to get refusal of casts or refusals to go, because the dog knows what it is in for. If you enforce your command,(especially with an e collar) you have just confirmed to the dog that cold water is bad news. If you make something so simple that you will not need to cast or help, then all you have taught the dog is……water can be uncomfortable.
Despite this, the dog goes, does it’s job, and you walk away confident that your dog now appreciates cold water work. Next time out, you need to send him out to open water to a crippled bluebill that he didn’t see fall. Will he go? Will he cast out beyond the decoys? Maybe. But when the tough retrieves are needed and your dog is spinning in the water instead of casting out, because he’s learned that you can’t get him and he’s cold enough, you can blame the heads up that you gave him in the cold water training sessions. He will definitely have it on his mind.

What makes a dog competent in the field or boat?
The thing that gets those birds that other hunters & dogs won’t, is training.
It is training in the off season for elements of a retrieve that would cause a dog to otherwise fail.
Factors-
Obstacles - to go through rather than around (lining)
Going straight helps dogs keep the picture, that their eye took, when they mark a fall.
Elements- Wind (#1) Waves, Hills, cover, Current etc
Behavior- Steadiness, honouring, Casting, PERSEVERENCE,
Other stuff: Gunfire, decoys, Boat behavior
You can & should train for all this stuff when the dogs won’t have the excuse of physical discomfort. Lots of this stuff is something that can & should be introduced well before hunting season. The dog gets good at it through hunting season as it gets experience.
Dogs do not get good at hypothermia! They get acclimated to cold gradually as hunting season gets gradually colder.
Preparation (knowledge) and experience help keep a dog safe when conditions become risky. Changing conditions such as high and/or unexpected gusts of wind, river current, getting tangled in decoy lines, are experienced well before the added challenge of cold water. Dogs will go until they are dead. They can’t possibly know they are in trouble, until it’s too late. Their desire for birds often overwhelms any common sense that we might expect from them.
Only 3 things will save a dogs life under those conditions.
1) Physical conditioning acquired through training (Simply hunting- even every day, doesn’t get them there)
2) Obedience – Will the dog come when called while chasing a cripple or a drifter, into danger.
3) Experience & training.
Exposing dogs to these conditions unnecessarily is a risk that is not worth taking. If you have prepared your dog, (when the dogs won’t have the excuse of physical discomfort) you will likely get to enjoy the work that others can only hope for, and you will have done what you can to ensure their safety.
This is a pretty cool site. I hope my effort is a contribution.
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I think again what was initially stated is that Jon took his dog down to the water to "blow off some steam" Is the fact that he had a bumper that made it a training session? I have taken my dog out for walks in the winter that ended up as swims because he LOVES the water no matter how COLD it is outside. All you guys who think that if it is below 60 than you shouldn't train then you shouldn't be hunting either becasue each time we hunt, we are in fact training. If the dog likes the water and is willing to swim in it what harm is done? Just keep an eye on them and make sure that they are OK.

I think that the big difference here is that there are hunting dogs and there are hunt test/field trialer dogs. A hunting dog will hunt in the snotty stuff but the field trialer will cringe at the fact that his "prized" blue ribbon dog should go out in water if it is below 60 degrees.
 
Mike, I think you have failed to read or understand this thread entirely, but I am thrilled that you tried.
My panties are officially bunched up.
 
With our seasons closed as of now, I decided to take my mutt down to the local State Park Reservoir to blow off a little steam.

Lake was quite choppy. Angry NW wind blowing, white caps, the works.

Perfect for a little “rough water” work, I thought. The NW wind was blowing pretty much from my left to right so I walked to a point where I could angle my throws to take advantage of the breeze and throw a little farther. From where I was standing on the shoreline, I could heave the plastic ducks about fifty to sixty yards. Couple that with the chop induced drifting and Suzy was in for a few pretty long retrieves. I threw a couple dummies. Suzy had a difficult time finding them in the chop, especially the first couple, but managed to find all that I threw.

As we worked, I could see a pretty nasty front blowing from across the lake. All of a sudden WHAM! The snow was blowing so hard I couldn’t see fifty feet. At this moment, Sue was about seventy-five yards out, and about twenty feet from the dummy. SHE IS GONE! NOT TO BE SEEN! Oh crap. Now what do I do. Can’t see her, I don’t think she can see me. It’s snowing and blowing so hard, I don’t know if she can even hear me. No panic yet. I’m thinking I’ll let her do her stuff and rely on her own, God given instincts. Hope I’m right… I start down along the shore to shorten the distance between us as much as possible. After about forty seconds, I start to wail on the whistle. Cup my hands and blow like hell. Finally, after what seemed like an hour, I begin to make out a little gray figure bobbing in the water, heading my way. WHEW! She fought the chop in, heeled at my side, gave up the toy duck all the while wagging her tail ready for more. No more. I like to keep her in my sight. I threw a couple short ones in the grass just to give her a little more work.

After was all said and done, I guess she never really was in any danger, but she just COULD HAVE BEEN!

All home and warm now, none the worse for wear.

Jon
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Think that I read the post just fine from what Jon intended. Not his fault or mine that it got hijacked and blown out of proportion.
 
On what planet does it make any sense to not expose a dog to cold water? That makes no more sense than not exposing them to ducks! Jesus Christ!
 
Cold water training.
If you train in cold water, you are more likely to get refusal of casts or refusals to go, because the dog knows what it is in for.
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Would you rather "surprise" the dog by making his first experience into cold water an actual hunting retrieve? What will you do if the dog says F**K YOU and refuses?
 
Cold water training.
If you train in cold water, you are more likely to get refusal of casts or refusals to go, because the dog knows what it is in for.
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I agree DeWayne. Why would you want your dog to be surprised. If you don't train your dog for scenarios that may arise then THAT WOULD BE TROUBLE.

This is why I don't feel that hunt test are truly accurate to see if a dog "will hunt". There is a big difference. In a hunt test/field trial, the dog is "seeing" action 99.99% of the time on his run. Whereas a hunting dog may be sitting in the boat/blind 99.99% of the time (hopefully not though). The worst part for me is hunting with these high strung "trial dogs" that constantly whine and bark and pace the boat. The dogs turn out to be bigger A-holes than their owners. The hunt test dogs are trained to put on a show, wow the judges, make a big splash into the water and go with blazing speed. These dogs usually end up being a huge PITA to hunt with.

Who cares if your dog will dog a 250 yard blind. That has no place in hunting and that puts your dog in a BIGGER danger because you can't see potential hazards that far. If your dog has to go that far, start the damn motor and get it yourself.
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The problems with reading and following these threads is often in the perception, whether intentional or unintentional. Sometimes important details get missed when quickly reading over. I have been guilty of that myself.

While I do agree with a lot of what has been written, I don’t necessarily disagree with a lot of it either.

There are a LOT of exaggerations and assumptions. Some of which are rather humorous, albeit ridiculous. “Would you train your dog in gator infested water?” Sorry, but I can’t find any similarities here, whatsoever.

And for all of you novices out there, be careful. Again, I am working with an experienced dog, not a beginner pup. You have to make sure you covered ALL of the basics and can handle your dog 100% first.

I do not, for one minute want to give the impression that we train for hours and hours, every day, in freezing temperatures, snow sleet wind and whitecaps. Hardly. The vast majority of our training is on dry land, in decent weather. Only makes sense. After all, that’s what we have here, where I live, for eight to nine months a year. I agree with the thought of discomfort. Since I state earlier, I never have, do not, nor ever will use any type of shock collar, I have to make sure most of my training revolves around repetition and fun. Pure hard core regimented training in cold water would eventually become torture for them. I train for my hunting situations. And once again, I am not into half hour retrieves, even in warm water.

Andrew K wrote ” Sounds like he has lots of drive, but what happens when he gives you a no go? Do you add pressure on him to go? Or do you quit and walk away?” I cannot honestly say, this dog has ever given me a “no-go”. That’s taught and reinforced in basic training. There have been times when she has failed to find the bird, but never a “no-go”. There is a big difference. When there is a failure to find, I will call her off. That puts ME in control. There are times when I will call her off. We even work on it. You will sometimes have that in a hunting situation. I have never heard of that in a field trial. If your dog is giving you a no-go, you need to go back to the basics.

Scott Adams-you are totally correct in stating the dog will lose body temperature in cold water. You and I would too! And how about “The dog should not have environmental issues on its mind. That's OUR job as a caring partner.” or- ” (b)ut you can bet that there isn't a duck or goose in the water that is worth the risk involved with putting them in cold water unnecessarily. Spot On! As far as “What benefit are you realizing in training in the conditions of a cold hunt? “ or ”Exposing dogs to these conditions unnecessarily is a risk that is not worth taking. If you have prepared your dog, (when the dogs won’t have the excuse of physical discomfort) you will likely get to enjoy the work that others can only hope for, and you will have done what you can to ensure their safety.” I believe that has been answered, or at least, attempted to answer, many times. Go back and re-read some of the pertinent replies. That is exactly why we will work a little in nasty weather. So they won’t have environmental issues on their mind when they are exposed to it. (And, by the way, I do appreciate your effort in replying).

Mike Braden “I think that the big difference here is that there are hunting dogs and there are hunt test/field trialer dogs. A hunting dog will hunt in the snotty stuff but the field trialer will cringe at the fact that his "prized" blue ribbon dog should go out in water if it is below 60 degrees.” “There is a big difference. In a hunt test/field trial, the dog is "seeing" action 99.99% of the time on his run. Whereas a hunting dog may be sitting in the boat/blind 99.99% of the time (hopefully not though). “That has been my personal experience.

And “Who cares if your dog will dog a 250 yard blind. That has no place in hunting and that puts your dog in a BIGGER danger because you can't see potential hazards that far. If your dog has to go that far, start the damn motor and get it yourself.” Bingo! In field trials, the whole situation is controlled, not so while hunting.

Anyone who has ever hunted with me knows I am an absolute wimp when it comes to taking care of my dogs. I will often, depending on the conditions, use a towel to dry them off after a retrieve and carry an old coat to throw over them if they get chilled. There are times when I would not even think about sending them on a retrieve. But I sure enjoy her company!

Thanks for all of the replies.

Jon
 
Cold water is not a factor that you can expose the dog to, and expect better performance because of it.
Think about it people!
You start hunting in Sept or Oct, when the water is in the 50's or 60's. With any luck, you've done some training when the water was in the 60's. I don't know about you guys, but come sept. my dogs are getting gradually acclimated to cold water 3 or 4 times a week or more BY HUNTING WITH THEM! My training season is OVER!
Now you take them out to the lake, a month after their last cold hunt, and shock their system worse than any ecollar ever could, by throwing white bumpers in rough seas? You are teaching them that water sucks.
It's the last experience they will have until next march when you have them breaking ice on the first warm day.
Nobody has said don't hunt in cold water.
If you want to turn this into an anti competition argument, why not start another thread. I'm talking about my hunting dogs!
 
Scott, how about direct, no bullshit replies to two direct, no bullshit questions:

Would you rather "surprise" the dog by making his first experience into cold water an actual hunting retrieve? What will you do if the dog says F**K YOU and refuses?
 
I really find this "discussion" quite disturbing and have to jump in here.
Jon took his well trained, experienced dog down to the local lake to have some off-season fun, had a scary moment and related that too us.
All folks needed to say was "glad your 4-legged buddy is ok".
Instead its turned into this two week long shit storm.

After all the shit Jon has gotten, I just wonder why the hell no one jumped on me for taking my rookie dog on her first boat ride, first exposure to cold water, first exposure to gun-fire and first duck hunting trip all in one day?????????????????????
 
I really find this "discussion" quite disturbing and have to jump in here.
Jon took his well trained, experienced dog down to the local lake to have some off-season fun, had a scary moment and related that too us.
All folks needed to say was "glad your 4-legged buddy is ok".
Instead its turned into this two week long shit storm.

After all the shit Jon has gotten, I just wonder why the hell no one jumped on me for taking my rookie dog on her first boat ride, first exposure to cold water, first exposure to gun-fire and first duck hunting trip all in one day?????????????????????
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Carl, I think the discussion and debate of the subject at hand is healthy. When debate turns to personal attacks is when it becomes "unhealthy".

As for what you did to your pup, you should probably be drawn and quartered for that, then your remains burned at the stake...
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I really find this "discussion" quite disturbing and have to jump in here.
Jon took his well trained, experienced dog down to the local lake to have some off-season fun, had a scary moment and related that too us.
All folks needed to say was "glad your 4-legged buddy is ok".
Instead its turned into this two week long shit storm.

After all the shit Jon has gotten, I just wonder why the hell no one jumped on me for taking my rookie dog on her first boat ride, first exposure to cold water, first exposure to gun-fire and first duck hunting trip all in one day?????????????????????
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Carl, you know it, we all know it, your wife has to know by now...you're an idiot...no point in overstating the obvious. (check my signature line if you think I'm mean)

Seriously, Scott, you're just a pot stirrer, if you want to answer Dewaye's questions directly, do so, but stop giving Jon grief. Move on to another thread/topic or JUST MOVE ON. The weather in the midwest has been WAY MILD this winter, way milder than typical hunting season weather. If Jon took his dog to the mouth of a river, 33degree water and 10 degree air temp and 40mph wind, then he'd deserve the grief you've been dishing out, but given the weather, get off it!

Chuck

PS go take a another poop, you'll feel better...
 
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