Scary moment down at the lake this afternoon…
- Thread starter Jon Yenulonis
- Start date
Scott Adams
New member
Sure, No problem. Fair question.
No dogs exposure to cold water should be out of the blue, and most probably are not.
As I said earlier, dogs get used to cold water just fine, if they are hunted as the season progresses.
My dogs hunt the great lakes, right into late December. Like most, I'm cautious later in the season that they are not over exposed. If my dog left the boat early in the AM to retrieve, then sat for a few hrs before the next retrieve, I would be careful about the retrieves I allow. ie a diving cripple that is not likely to be gotten soon, I would not let him swim for it.
Since my dogs are trained through the season, and we have already taught that refusal comes with consequences, refusal is unlikely, and if it happens, we are prepared to deal with it. It HAS happened and the dog understood from past experience that it had to go, and it did. I also recognized that the dog was probably refusing because HE was cold, not because the water was cold. I recognized this and when he was done on this simple retrieve, I took steps to avoid hypothermia.
Would you really take a dog that has not been in cool water and expect it to do it's job in Cold water?
If you would, then you are thinking about what you believe a dog SHOULD be, instead of trying to understand what they ARE. That is just pure selfishness.
If I acquired a young dog in November, that had no exposure to training in water, I would wait until late spring to train that dog in water!
DeWayne Knight
Active member
Scott, I'm sensing a little backpedaling from "never, ever train your dog in cold water." Would it be fair to say you do train in cold water, but are careful about the dog's exposure and hypothermia?
Tom Roberts
Well-known member
This is what happens when the season ends and we all are suffering withdrawl symptoms. Let's all clean the duck blood out of our boats, dust off our fishing rods, meet on the river bank, sing a chorus of koombahyah, and pat our pooches on the head. LOL.
Carl, to be honest, when I read your post, I was afraid you were playing with matches.... to introduce a pup to shot like that could have gone very bad. Perhaps you had done some conditioning already, but if not you did run the risk of making a problem.
Now, I personally have not had a gun shy issue, but have always taken steps to ensure I did not. Starting with the whelping box.... when the eyes are still closed (and ears too) I am smashing pans off the floor next to the whelping box. When they start on moist food, the pan is crashed before the food is delivered... when the pups are weened same routine. Then once fun bumpers are introduced, a starter pistol far way while they are chasing the fun bumper.... and slowly the shot with a starter pistol is moved to the throw of the bumper. Then a similar routine with the shotgun poppers. Does not take long, but never a gun shy or thunder stressed pup in my house!
You are fortunate it went well, I have seen gun shy dogs and those that need meds during thunderstorms, and I would not keep either dog in my kennel/house, just too much work to deal with. Prevention is far easier.
Now, I personally have not had a gun shy issue, but have always taken steps to ensure I did not. Starting with the whelping box.... when the eyes are still closed (and ears too) I am smashing pans off the floor next to the whelping box. When they start on moist food, the pan is crashed before the food is delivered... when the pups are weened same routine. Then once fun bumpers are introduced, a starter pistol far way while they are chasing the fun bumper.... and slowly the shot with a starter pistol is moved to the throw of the bumper. Then a similar routine with the shotgun poppers. Does not take long, but never a gun shy or thunder stressed pup in my house!
You are fortunate it went well, I have seen gun shy dogs and those that need meds during thunderstorms, and I would not keep either dog in my kennel/house, just too much work to deal with. Prevention is far easier.
Dave Hughes
Active member
Dave, I once took a friend upland hunting to a semi wild game preserve. He brought along his german short hair pointer for its first hunt...the dog was trained for two years prior to this for hunting upland game. They used live pheasants and quail..etc...But un beknownst to me the dog was never introduced to a shotgun fire.....well the dogs points out a rooster...my friend jumps it and shoots and off Schultz goes full speed towards the truck about 400 yards away...we walk back to the truck and the dog is under my truck crying and would not come out....dog was ruined to hunting...we had to drag him from under the truck and put him inside where he stayed until we left...Schultz was scared to death when ever they brought guns out at home after that he would hide and cry...unbelieveable what happened to that dog.....Dave
Scott Adams
New member
DeWayne:
No backpeddling whatsoever.
There is a huge difference between, hunting & training when it comes to water attitude.
I use the skills taught to my dog, in warm water, to do the work I want while hunting in Cold water. Cold water that is only a little colder than what he was in earlier in the week! This way, when times get tough during the hunt, chasing a cripple, having to cast out to sea, or chasing geese that have sailed into the next marsh, the dogs attitude in the water is not an issue, because he has not had to suffer the unexpected shock of cold water, combined with expectations to be obedient & handle to boring old bumpers.
Attitude is everything in young dogs & old. Cold water can kill it like nothing else, if you are not careful.
While hunting I try to be careful about exposure, as most of us do here.
Train/teach in comfortable water. Use your dog carefully in the extremes of late season hunting. Don't put them at risk unneccessarily. That is it in a nutshell.
FWIW I have & always will, trained my own dogs without using a pro.
All my dogs get hunted. And I like beer. Alot
DeWayne Knight
Active member
First of all, I will address some of the other posts regarding a "first time experience". I too agree Carl may have ended up with a bad experience and a gun/water/boat/hunting shy dog. I'd be counting my blessings that everything turned out well.
Scott, do you cease to train once duck season starts?
Scott, do you cease to train once duck season starts?
Scott Adams
New member
I stop training and only hunt in the fall. The only exception is a young dog under 2yrs old, if I have one.
No fall water training for this dog, only carefully controlled hunting experience, on both land & water.
Hunting experience is NOT training! I consider training to be an environment that seeks to teach skills, where the actions of the dog can be anticipated & responded to. Hunting time is the reward for all their efforts in the previous 8 months. I'm not saying it always goes great, or that I don't have a forehead slapping moment, but what they learn as youngsters often stays with them for life, so I'm careful about the hunting situations that I chose for them. eg. If my sons are hunting with me, they shoot. I put my gun down & mind the dog. When they've shot they're birds, we switch up.
You own what you condone.
No fall water training for this dog, only carefully controlled hunting experience, on both land & water.
Hunting experience is NOT training! I consider training to be an environment that seeks to teach skills, where the actions of the dog can be anticipated & responded to. Hunting time is the reward for all their efforts in the previous 8 months. I'm not saying it always goes great, or that I don't have a forehead slapping moment, but what they learn as youngsters often stays with them for life, so I'm careful about the hunting situations that I chose for them. eg. If my sons are hunting with me, they shoot. I put my gun down & mind the dog. When they've shot they're birds, we switch up.
You own what you condone.
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Scott Adams
New member
I'm not sure what you mean?
I updated my user cp with more info than anyone needs to know about me.
Anything else?
Am I getting enough posts yet to use the classifieds?
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There are some viewpoints here that run against what I learned from professional trainers.
I've been out of retriever training circles for a few years now but in every instance the topic came up I was informed by pros and hard core amateurs water training in the winter was counterproductive. It was explained to me that REPEATED training in cold water can cause dogs to become averse to cold water retrieves and begin refusing, which is something no handler wants. Further training, in many instances, is like WORK to a dog and when WORK becomes too unpleasant some quit. Hunting on the other hand is like play as dogs know the difference between bumpers and live birds, contrived and live. I know from my own experiences live bird retrieves were usually more energetic with more output which I equate to more fun for the dog.
Lastly, Jon's story wasn't advocating cold water training but since the topic came up I'm fine with folks hashing it out. One day I'll own a retriever again and when I do cold water training won't be part of conditioning. Train 3/4s of the year, hunt the other.
Eric
I've been out of retriever training circles for a few years now but in every instance the topic came up I was informed by pros and hard core amateurs water training in the winter was counterproductive. It was explained to me that REPEATED training in cold water can cause dogs to become averse to cold water retrieves and begin refusing, which is something no handler wants. Further training, in many instances, is like WORK to a dog and when WORK becomes too unpleasant some quit. Hunting on the other hand is like play as dogs know the difference between bumpers and live birds, contrived and live. I know from my own experiences live bird retrieves were usually more energetic with more output which I equate to more fun for the dog.
Lastly, Jon's story wasn't advocating cold water training but since the topic came up I'm fine with folks hashing it out. One day I'll own a retriever again and when I do cold water training won't be part of conditioning. Train 3/4s of the year, hunt the other.
Eric
Scott Adams
New member
Hey Carl, Nice Redheads!
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DeWayne Knight
Active member
At least you haven't lost your sense of humor through the beatings...lol.
In reading through Eric's post, and sorting through the things that you have said, I would tend to agree that in spirit we all put the safety of our dogs first. Beyond that, I think a lot of the disagreement may come from differences in semantics. Eric referred to "REPEATED training in cold water" as being detrimental in his understanding. I would agree with that, as well as much of the rest of his post. Do I try to teach my dog new concepts via repeated training sessions in cold water? No. When I refer to "training in cold water", I am referring to drills, training, whatever you want to call it, of things the dog already knows, basically just to keep him sharp and in shape. I'm not talking 30 straight minutes of water work in icy cold water. I'm fortunate in that I can be at one of a half dozen training spots with water less than a 10 minute drive from my house. I'm also pretty fortunate in that I'm able to hunt A LOT. 3, 4, 5 times a week is the norm. I once went waterfowl hunting 12 straight days in a row. The dog gets a lot of work; between doves, pigeons, pheasants, ducks, and geese, as shitty as this past hunting season was, he had over 400 working retrieves. This was his 4th full season. But during our splits, when he isn't hunting, he gets some training, exercise, whatever you want to call it. It might be 4-6 bumpers total, and 50-75 yards being the max on a couple. One day it might be water, one day it might be dry land. What I don't do, as Eric referred to it, is to try teaching new concepts by "REPEATED training in cold water", day after day after day. That is warmer weather/water work.
In my own defense, I had a pretty good idea that loud noises would not bother her. When I use the power saw, and other loud tools, in the back yard, I would always have to push her away: As soon as she heard the noises, she would be over right by my side staring at whatever made the noise. Also, she has never been afraid of thunder. So I was taking a calculated gamble with her on the gun shy part.
Bob B
Well-known member
We are lucky to have a dog that loves to be in the water no matter what. He just gets cranked up every time he is close to it. Aug or Jan.
Sure dont look to advance his learning in the late season on an off day but he is in the ocean all the time at work and that is his choice.
A huge part of it, is that he is on lock down during the day in a "sit\down stay" while I work. So he is totally fired up to get a release and have a few fun bumpers.
BUT having a boat around is a big part of it.
Travis once wrote it about a cripple and a dog off on it. I am remembering him saying he would be gone for the boat right away to be able to get the dog out of trouble.
Each owner has a line and some have seen enough to have moved theirs due to bad things that have happened.
It is hard to admit some times that the dog has more drive and motivation than self protection instinct and we are, in the end, going to be the one who deals with the outcome.
Sure dont look to advance his learning in the late season on an off day but he is in the ocean all the time at work and that is his choice.
A huge part of it, is that he is on lock down during the day in a "sit\down stay" while I work. So he is totally fired up to get a release and have a few fun bumpers.
BUT having a boat around is a big part of it.
Travis once wrote it about a cripple and a dog off on it. I am remembering him saying he would be gone for the boat right away to be able to get the dog out of trouble.
Each owner has a line and some have seen enough to have moved theirs due to bad things that have happened.
It is hard to admit some times that the dog has more drive and motivation than self protection instinct and we are, in the end, going to be the one who deals with the outcome.
Ed Askew
Well-known member
It used to amaze me, but not anymore of course, the passion that can stirred up on the internet when the subject turns to hunting dogs (esp. when related to training issues). I don't think there is any other topic that can get folks going like a dog related dispute. I love my dogs every one of them and can understand it to a degree. Sometimes I think if we were in Dodge City circa 1875 and one of these topics came up there'd either be a shootin' or a hangin'.
Ed.
Ed.