Scaup, Last Question before sea trials

R

Robert Kelleher

New member
Went motor shopping, I think the best all around fit I found was a Yamaha 4 stroke 25 hp electric start. The advice has been on target so far so I am hoping for some sound feedback. What do you think?
 
Robert,

I am pretty sure everyone who has had a Scaup will tell you that a 25 is too small for that boat. You won't achieve the performance that it is capable of. If you have the funds available, I'd suggest a 40.
 
Bob,
I am of the slower is OK school. I love ringing out a fast boat but I dont prescribe to the more HP equals safety thought. Boats that go to work every day are mostly displacement speed and are out in weather that most would stay home.
The conditions that you hunt will play a big part in your choice and if distance matters a lot to you, going faster may help with your schedule but you will be safe with less, just a bit late for work if you have a big run to make.

I dont own a Scaup, but considered building one. I do know the 2 stroke 40 pushed it plenty fast. But a 4 stroke is going to be a heavy motor on a 16 foot boat.
 
Hunting from this boat will almost exclusively be inside of the many south side bays on Cape Cod East of Falmouth or around and outside of the Hyannis Breakwater. Speed is not an issue, can't be late for something you do want to do any more, hahahaha. I may want to drag a scull but that would be it.
 
Well, since you are bound and determined to put a 25 on it, please slap it on and test the boat loaded down with all your duck hunting stuff including your buddy, dog etc - BEFORE you buy the motor. If you are happy with the perfomance great. Heck, I have a BB3 with a 30 hp on it and feel that at times I want a bigger motor. It's not about speed, it's about performance - when you need it. I could care less how fast my BB3 might go with a 25 in dead flat water in the middle of the summer - I want to know if I am going to make it back to the landing with 1/2 inch of ice on everything and loaded down with 350 lbs of people, 100 lbs of dog and 4-5 dozen non-plastic decoys.
 
Im with Pete,the 25 hp is not enough,it barely makes it on my bb3, load your scaup up and try it with the 25hp,but Ill bet it wont be enough motor, hope this helps, Brian
 
Based on the advice of others, and my general dislike the additional weight the smaller 4-strokes add to the stern, I would be looking for a used Yamaha or Nissan/Tohatsu 2 stroke 40hp.
Both are very popular engines with the commercial guys down here, and they put them through the ringer every day. Well, at least before the oil spill they did.
 
Bob,
the salt ice in the spots you hunt is soft and not glass hard like the fresh stuff.

How about a few pictures?

Are you taking any?


Someone here can help you get them posted.
 
Went motor shopping, I think the best all around fit I found was a Yamaha 4 stroke 25 hp electric start. The advice has been on target so far so I am hoping for some sound feedback. What do you think?
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Go with a 40 or a 50, no way you will be happy with the 25. As Pete said, this isn't talking winning a race, this is about having a boat with reasonible performance. A 25 likely won't plane the boat, I'd be really surprised if it did. These boats are hogs in terms of HP compared to the standard duck boats, that is one of the trade-offs in their hull design - lots of benefits to the hull design, but the downside is that they take some ponies to get on step.

My snowgoose with a yamaha F40 and two guys a dog and gear will do low to mid 20's with a moderately heavy load (2 guys and a dog). I can tell you that it wouldn't plane out with a 25 and a load.

T
 
I'll also say that the F25 is not exactly a hot motor. I love 4 strokes and that is pretty much all I would own. An f40 (or honda 40) was the motor I wanted and the motor my snowgoose was built around and I'm very happy with it. You have to understand where the motor you are thinking about fits in the food chain as well, it is on the low end of 25 hp performance.

People are commonly not completely (as in 100% thrilled it makes me giggle) happy with the performance of these boats even with powered with the max motor. Eventhough I'm happy with my 40, I'd repower with a 50, no question about it.

T
 
Like I said,,,,
two points of view. If you have the cash and want to go 20 or better fine.

But if like many folks right now, duck hunting is a hobby and not your bread and butter,

Going 10 kts will get you to a lot of duck hunting from most ramps and you will be hunting. Not sitting home, because you couldn't spend twice as much on a new motor.

Its perspective, and a choice, but not a reason to keep from hunting.
 
Like I said,,,,
two points of view. If you have the cash and want to go 20 or better fine.

But if like many folks right now, duck hunting is a hobby and not your bread and butter,

Going 10 kts will get you to a lot of duck hunting from most ramps and you will be hunting. Not sitting home, because you couldn't spend twice as much on a new motor.

Its perspective, and a choice, but not a reason to keep from hunting.
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This is a custom, high performance, highly specialized duckboat we are talking about, not a 1964 12' sears gamefisher. To me to underpower it would be like building a hot rod to put a lawn mower engine in it.

T
 
40 or 50 HP 2 Stroke.

Underpowered can also become a safety issue if you get caught in any kind of weather.

Personally I hate the 4 strokes on any duck boat especially late in the season. If you need to get that motor fired up fast in an emergency 2 stroke all the way. Just my opinion.
 
Brian,
I have spent weeks at sea on boats that never went over 9 kts and never felt one bit unsafe.

If you think safe is running before the wind comes, that is your choice.
Good boat handling is not hard with a little time at the tiller and if the bow is into it or quatering you will be just fine.

I have way to many examples of boats and working men from the 1930's on, who lived at sea and made due with just enough speed.

I said above, I love a fast boat, but it isnt required to shoot a whole pile of ducks. And in the dark in cold water "Safe" is not a word I use with that speed..... convenient maybe, but not, "Safe".
 
Brian,
I have spent weeks at sea on boats that never went over 9 kts and never felt one bit unsafe.

If you think safe is running before the wind comes, that is your choice.
Good boat handling is not hard with a little time at the tiller and if the bow is into it or quatering you will be just fine.

I have way to many examples of boats and working men from the 1930's on, who lived at sea and made due with just enough speed.

I said above, I love a fast boat, but it isnt required to shoot a whole pile of ducks. And in the dark in cold water "Safe" is not a word I use with that speed..... convenient maybe, but not, "Safe".
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Bob, you keep pushing and I don't know what dog you have in the show, but for all your experiance on the high seas, I don't think you understand how these boats handle or how they are designed to handle relative to your experiance. You sure haven't asked me or described your experiance in a similar craft.

9 kts in a boat designed to do 9 kts is great and a safe way to go - these boats we are talking about are not designed to do 9 kts. They are modified planing hulls that take a large amount to hp to get the bow up to run with a safe attitude in big weather in my experiance. Maintaining a bow up attitude under power is important in a low freeboard duckboat, unlike your 9 kt tug, trawler or blowboat or a tin can for that matter. They are different beasts and have to be run different. I would suggest you get on the tiller of one in some snot before you tell him to under power his boat. It is a safety issue plain and simple, not a 10 vs. 30 kt issue. I can run 30 knots empty on a calm day, but I need the power I have to manage large seas in the safest way possible, which is a bow up attitude.

T
 
After sitting in on three years worth of seminars at the IBEX show on high speed planning hull design with names like Blount and others as presenters I feel pretty comfortable about the math and tank science behind planning with a v shaped hull and was esp impressed by a small MO builder of bass boats that use a stepped hull. His boats top 80mph easily, and dont chine walk.
So as for my time at 10 kts it was proven over and over that the safe way to get thru was slow ahead and keep the brains at the wheel not the speedometer.
So if there is a horse in a race, it is to offer a guy who asks, a different view to, "You cant expect to use, let alone be safe in that boat" with 1\2 or a 1\3 of the max rated HP.
No Argument at all if you want to clock the thing for a speed run.

But you can push the boat with less than most regularly call for in these type of post's and with a single pin adjustment have all the bow high attitude you could ever want. (If it had Oars and the right seat hight I'll get it home rowing). Second, most are now forced to buy four stroke motors that are "Way" too heavy for the narrow stern of the small planing hull. On the larger go fast center consoles up to a foot more beam is now common to try to get the back side waterline up. How safe is a boat picking up blocks with its well or rail at the water level from a "Fat, Max, HP" motor? No flame here, just facts that have been working for longer than I have been alive. The scaup is decked and has good bouyancy fwd. with a nice upward roll to the forward sections. Side decks add to the ability to keep water out. If a stern well is added, even better to unload water that tries to enter from the stern.
It is not a snow goose or a cackler. But if used in mildly protected bays and any small lake it is a great low profile set up.
I just am strongly convinced that a guy who has one can use it with out the big motor and hunt like heck. He will have to add some time but will not be unsafe in any way, and he has a far greater chance of doing way less damage in a submerged object strike. That is way more likely in the dark than the perceived need for some huge max motor to get the nose up.
So for the guy who wants to build a boat and hunt it without spending a fortune on the big motor right away...... Do it. If the budget allows later, buy a bigger one with the cash from selling the small one.
But Boat Handling is learned, and a good captain can dock a single screw in a tight hole without a bow thruster that every boat has to now have for safety...
And I'm sure monday that there will be a boat in a lift well near me that is hauled because it ran over something going way too fast......
 
After sitting in on three years worth of seminars at the IBEX show on high speed planning hull design with names like Blount and others as presenters I feel pretty comfortable about the math and tank science behind planning with a v shaped hull and was esp impressed by a small MO builder of bass boats that use a stepped hull. His boats top 80mph easily, and dont chine walk.
So as for my time at 10 kts it was proven over and over that the safe way to get thru was slow ahead and keep the brains at the wheel not the speedometer.
So if there is a horse in a race, it is to offer a guy who asks, a different view to, "You cant expect to use, let alone be safe in that boat" with 1\2 or a 1\3 of the max rated HP.
No Argument at all if you want to clock the thing for a speed run.

But you can push the boat with less than most regularly call for in these type of post's and with a single pin adjustment have all the bow high attitude you could ever want. (If it had Oars and the right seat hight I'll get it home rowing). Second, most are now forced to buy four stroke motors that are "Way" too heavy for the narrow stern of the small planing hull. On the larger go fast center consoles up to a foot more beam is now common to try to get the back side waterline up. How safe is a boat picking up blocks with its well or rail at the water level from a "Fat, Max, HP" motor? No flame here, just facts that have been working for longer than I have been alive. The scaup is decked and has good bouyancy fwd. with a nice upward roll to the forward sections. Side decks add to the ability to keep water out. If a stern well is added, even better to unload water that tries to enter from the stern.
It is not a snow goose or a cackler. But if used in mildly protected bays and any small lake it is a great low profile set up.
I just am strongly convinced that a guy who has one can use it with out the big motor and hunt like heck. He will have to add some time but will not be unsafe in any way, and he has a far greater chance of doing way less damage in a submerged object strike. That is way more likely in the dark than the perceived need for some huge max motor to get the nose up.
So for the guy who wants to build a boat and hunt it without spending a fortune on the big motor right away...... Do it. If the budget allows later, buy a bigger one with the cash from selling the small one.
But Boat Handling is learned, and a good captain can dock a single screw in a tight hole without a bow thruster that every boat has to now have for safety...
And I'm sure monday that there will be a boat in a lift well near me that is hauled because it ran over something going way too fast......
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Bob,

I think the fact that everyone in this thread that owns and operates a Devlin boat has the same opinion that contradicts yours speaks volumes. I do, however, like to argue, so I'll keep at it anyway.

I think it is important to clarify several statements you have made.

First the Devlins are extremely wide boats and your analogy to "go fast center consoles" is not valid given the Devlin's width, they are not narrow in the stern - to the contrary they are extremely wide for their length - take a look at the top profiles of any of them. They can easily support the motor they are rated for. I will also say that max motor was suggested by the designer when I asked.

On the "single pin adjustment have all the bow high attitude you could ever want" - I say BS with an underpowered boat. I'd like to see you get the bow on any true planing hull (particularly an underpowered one) as high as mine can. I'll guarantee that you that you can't.

As for the Scaup not being "a snow goose or a cackler. But if used in mildly protected bays and any small lake it is a great low profile set up. ". I'll call you on that too. The designer of the boat ranks the scaup only slightly less seaworthy than the Snowgoose and Cackler in open water (7.5 for the scaup vs, 8 and 9 out of 10 for seaworthyness).

As for your examples citing: "high speed planning hull design ", "small MO builder of bass boats", "submerged object strike", "can dock a single screw in a tight hole without a bow thruster", "hauled because it ran over something going way too fast...... " I don't see where any of those examples apply to the discussion of what motor is right for the boat, but hey I do like to argue too, but I try to stay on topic.

I appreciate your point that a smaller motor is less expensive, but that isn't relevant. We aren't talking about cost and we aren't talking about what he can get away with, we are talking about what is the right range in motor size to take advantage of the design.

T

 
Wow, a lot to think about, Did not realize the difference in two and four stroke were so huge, the weight may be an issue to consider.
Beginning to think maybe I do need to look at a little bigger motor, gonna take a look at that.
I have tried to be open minded and listen to the advice I am given here, I have used it to make my boat a lot better than it might have been.
I intend to finish the project the same way, I am asking questions because I truly do not know the answer and I want to get it right.
I would like to thank each of you for your thoughts all points of view are valuable.
 
Robert,

If you ask you may find someone local that will let you try their outboard on your Scaup. If you were closer I'd say bring her over and try my 25 two stroke on her. I'd even supply you with an extra couple of hundred lbs of ballast by coming along :^)

Scott
 
I've had a Scaup for more than 10 years. I started with a Honda 25 4 stroke. This engine did not have sufficient power to run the Scaup safely. I then went to a 30 hp Yamaha 2 stroke. This engine had better performance but was horrible on fuel. My boat has a 7.5 gal aluminum tank. One of the first trips in the boat had me run out of fuel on a trip around Narragansett Bay. I've been running a 40 HP Yamaha 4 stroke for the past 8 years.

The power issue on the boat has nothing to do with speed. These boats push a significant amount of water as they are coming up on plane due to the wide beam. I had too many trips in the early days with a couple of guys, dog, gear etc where the smaller motors could not pop the boat onto a plane at will. With the low freeboard of a Scaup, safety is having the power to control the running posture of the boat. If you get caught in some of the short, steep chop we often have in RI, you really need sufficient power to have complete control of bow height and to be able to control all aspects of the boat's running attitude.

My 2 cents.
 
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