Scaup, Last Question before sea trials

You would be well served if you can find an offer as nice as Scott's close by. I am pushing a string with Todd but many have done that before.
If you have the money buy a big motor and enjoy. But if you dont and or for any reason you only have a 25 available use it. The boat will get you hunting and back.
I still say the 40\50 four stroke is going to be a heavy motor on a boat with 6 to 12 inches of loaded freeboard and if any one in the industry says they like heavy motors over light they are only expressing the clean and quiet part, not the handling properties. Weight and its location are everything in boat design, esp small boat design where loading on the ends has a large effect. ETech motors are the only new 2 stroke option and some folks love them, others dont. They aren't always light in HP class either due to larger blocks being detuned to a ratting. Used 40 to 50 tiller motors are not that common in good shape.

The statement has ben made here that safety is found with a high bow and a max power motor pushing it up over large waves. I disagree that safety is part of that. If more horsepower is a solution for overloaded running in a very high sea state you are just playing the odds till you find a bigger different shaped hull is what you need for the job.
More safety concerns develop from accidents where higher power was available and used at the wrong time creating an inability to avoid the strike\collision\whatever due to speed.
The idea that you will not be able to hunt because you dont have a 40\50 is a mask for wanting a fast ride and hunting in conditions on the edge of the boats design criteria. Short Period High Waves in an overloaded boat with 6 to 12 inches of freeboard with water at 39 degrees?
But I state again the Scaup is an excellent way to get to a spot and hunt low to the water or bank. I am quite sure that the hunting will be just as good if you leave extra time with a smaller motor or later with a big one.
If they killed ducks out of Barnegat Bay sneak boxes with oars and sails I bet you will too which ever motor you get to use.
 
Wow, a lot to think about, Did not realize the difference in two and four stroke were so huge, the weight may be an issue to consider.
Beginning to think maybe I do need to look at a little bigger motor, gonna take a look at that.
I have tried to be open minded and listen to the advice I am given here, I have used it to make my boat a lot better than it might have been.
I intend to finish the project the same way, I am asking questions because I truly do not know the answer and I want to get it right.
I would like to thank each of you for your thoughts all points of view are valuable.
Click to expand...


I personally wouldn't worry about the 4 stroke 40s on your Scaup. Especially since Eric B ran an F40 and is pleased with the performance. You can't get better than advice from someone who has owned the exact boat. Both the Hondas and Yamahas are excellent motors and would be my choice from anything out there. Would a super light 2 smoker be better in some ways, maybe, but it isn't much of an option for me. With my 4 stroke, my boat drafts to spec or less, if that helps.

Since it hasn't been said in this thread already, the hull designs on these boats is different than what most people have experianced. What I explain ranges across the different designs with the scaup on the less pronounced end. Thse boats are not traditional planing hulls. They have some rocker, which is a curvature along the keel in relation to the waterline. They don't have the typical uniform rocker of a displacement hull, but it is rocker nonetheless. the end result is that the boats have is a relatively short planing surface to the rear, as compared to most planing hulls. This design allows the bow up attitude of a displacement hull at low speeds and allows you to plane at high speeds. A low freeboard boat like yours would be less safe to run if it was a pure planing hull and it couldn't run on plane if it was a displacement hull. This is a unique and a great design for a duckboat - the only downside is that they are power hogs, since they take a lot of power to get the bow up, but that is expected with the displacement component of the hull.

T
 
Bob and Tod - Just wanted to say thanks for having this discussion here - I learned a great deal of useful information reading this thread. Thanks to Robert for posing the question that got all this going too. All of this has helped me understand some things I've wondered about, and I've sent a link to a friend I had been discussing this sort of thing with a bit, I'm sure he'll find it useful too.
 
Todd is right on with the last paragraph of his post and the Black Brant II is an extreme example of the idea. It is a mellon seed type hull on steroids. It does not go fast without a lot of power.
But it will cork thru very short choppy waves and get you there and back, high power or not, esp. with a dodger well built on the bow.

I hope you get to try a motor before you have to commit the bucks if you are not sure. If you do take some pictures and let us know how it works for your hunting situation.
 
I have a Snowgoose as well... and I've been fortunate to have spent a great deal of time with Eric B and Neil B in their Scaup and we have discussed the Scaup power issue on many occasions... they have literally put their money where their mouth is on this argument...

#1 reason to NOT go underpowered with a Scaup is safety... you'll be in some goofy waves and winds on the Cape and having enough power back there is ESSENTIAL for steering around trouble... don't cheapen up on safety...

The Snowgoose/Scaup hulls are very very similar and it is a weird hull... first, if you think a heavy 40/50 4 stroke motor will be a drag on your transom... it won't. You'll be stunned by how high the boat sits on the water... NOT an issue.

4 stroke vs 2 stroke: no fumes, no oil, better gas mileage (maybe the ETEC guys will chime in here... but the 40 ETEC weighs more than my 40 Honda)... 4 Stroke means you can actually have a conversation and if you are fisherman, you'll swear the motor has died because it's so quiet...

Tod's arguments are 100% right on... Bob, I love you, but this hull is goofy... it wants to be a sailboat... take a look at the photos whilst up on your crane last winter...

DO NOT BUY A 25 HORSE MOTOR ON A SCAUP IF YOU ARE HUNTING CAPE COD !!!
 
Lots of good advise here, and I get Bob's argument as it is easy for us not spending the money to say buying the more expensive, bigger four stroke is a no-brainer, but we aren't paying for it. Bob's point is that if all you can afford is the 25hp at this time, and it's either that or park the boat until next year, buy the 25 HP and be careful to avoid bad weather or riskier trips.

I was in your shoes a year ago with my 15'-5" cackler, except I can hunt in much more protected waters on our local river, I just wanted some sort power so I could hunt my boat that fall, then save up for the ultimate motor later. As luck would have it i found a killer deal on Craig's List right here in my backyard, a 50HP Merc with power trim and controls. Actually larger than spec'd for the Cackler but I got Devlin's blessing. That motor has been great and I'm a happy camper. I agree with Todd on the weight issue. Coming from a sailboat racing background, I'm a weight nazi, I hate unnecessary weight, and strive to keep things as light as possible, but these Devlin Designs are duck boats with an incredible ability to carry weight almost without regard to trim. The boats themselves are rather heavy and stable, just make sure to mount your fuel tank forward to balance out the motor a bit.

John
 
John, with all due respect, the water you are hunting and the water he is hunting is a different mission altogether. I'd hate to see the guy slap a 25 on that boat... just to get on the water... better to get a cheap 40 2 stroke and at least have the power behind him to maneuver.
 
Hi Andrew,

Sorry I wasn't more clear, I tried to make the point that I hunt protected waters so a 25 HP would probably get me there and back, but his open water is definitely a different story. Also he should be able to find a less expensive used 40HP on Craigs List or his local classifieds, and he shouldn't worry about the weight, a Devlin design can handle it. But lets say all he had was a 25 HP, is there any kind of fair weather hunting or protected water in his area, or is it all open ocean, dicey weather stuff?

John
 
Andrew,
I think the points you made are all correct in the facts.
My concern is that a hull that needs big power on the throttle to "Keep the Nose Up," to be driven thru the bigger seas, is a very advanced proposition when it comes to boat handling in lousy conditions.
If you for whatever reason dont have that power you were counting on you are,
according to post's here, not going to like it.
This is my point.
A 25 will move the boat back and forth to a spot in protected water without problems.
A 40 or 50 will give a very low profile boat the ability for a very experienced operator to get thru much worse if the handling is superb and the unexpected does not occur. But if you chuck or smash a prop blade or lose a cylinder coil, you are right back at 25 hp or less and are in a situation you need a plan for if you are far from the ramp and its coming on to blow.
This is why I don't believe in telling someone I have never been on the water with, that they are going to be fine in big conditions in this setup.
With experience and practice you will be able to make it work well and hunt some great spots.
But you are far from the "Safety" term so loosely used when talking about motor and handling issues with the small low profile boats in the under 18 foot class.
This is in regards to a scaup type esp. with the lower freeboard, than the higher sides of the cackler/snow goose/honker/banks/TBD/Lund type.
 
Got it John and Bob... sorry John... Bob, I won't argue with your experience in boats... you have more in your little finger than... ; )

Seriously... and maybe my favorite cousin Tod can articulate it better than I... the Scaup hull is extremely well designed... like a sailboat, it's murder to row because of the rocker, which is kinda "middle-front", i.e. it doesn't track well... but the hull pops up on plane quickly and of course it handles shallow water beautifully...

The boat is perfectly matched with a 40 hp... Tod suggested a 50, I buy that too... when the Scaup/Snowgoose hull has enough horses, the boat can maneuver around white water, mogul type waves (Bay waves found around the Cape, etc.) with max weight in the boat... When the throttle kicks in, the boat responds... with thick "Keelsons" installed on the bottom, the boat can turn on a dime and turn well actually in the waves, it doesn't hesitate at all...

John, if you have a true Cackler design, then your hull is totally different than the Scaup's... it takes a lot of horses to get up on plane... once on plane, it handles like a dream, and the Cackler handles as well as the Scaup in our environment...

I like Morton's Cackler a lot, in many ways, it's the perfect duck boat... when we go out in tandem, and if he has another person in his boat, his ability to guide the boat positively around waves, etc... is compromised as getting up to speed is hard... and he has to slog through it... If he had a 40 hp (as opposed to his 30), he'd be able to do that... but the extra weight on his transom is meaningul as the displacement back there is not as positive as the Scaup's (Snowgoose)...

I'm no expert (obviously), but I pay attention and try to pass on what I learn...
 
Based on the advice here I have revised my shopping list, I will let you know where I wind up but I believe it is bigger and maybe 4 stroke. Just finished the FME light grey, looks good, can I get some assistance to post pics?
 
What I have found easiest for posting pictures here.. is to first post them in FaceBook. Then simply open them in FaceBook, then right click on the picture, copy, and paste right into the body of you posting here. They do not have to be sized that way, and display the same size as what you see in FB. Dave
 
Robert ,


This is only my opinion , but i have been out in Eric Baggesens Scaup with a 40 horse 4 stroke Yamaha and it what belongs on that boat , the one thing to keep in mind is "SAFETY" I built a 14 foot Cackler with a 30 Horse Honda 4 stroke and to this day i wish i had the 40 but for the way i hunt and fish the 30 will do , i would recomend looking for a fuel injected motor not carburated the ethanol in todays fuels will run better in the injected O/B. One other thing to consider is how much weight you plan to carry during the season AKA , Dekes, guns , dog etc etc. Whatever choice you make there is nothing like cruising in your own home built boat CONGRATS And GOOD LUCK !!!



Dave M
 
Whatever engine you purchase, if it's a 4 stroke be wise and heed Dave's advice on the fuel injection. My 2000 model year 40 HP Yamaha has carbs. For years this engine ran like a champ. In the past couple of years my son has not been able to run the boat safely due to a constant problem of stalling and stumbling when throttling up. When I was back in RI last fall I rebuilt the carbs to no avail. This spring I dragged the boat here to CA and rebuilt the carbs again. Refilled with fresh gas and still no go. I emptied out the tank and went looking for racing gas with no ethanol. I finally found a supplier here in Sacramento that has Sunoco 260 GTX fuel. This is 94 octane, no ethanol. Put it in the tank and the motor runs like brand new. This is a chronic problem with the older carbed Yamaha 4 strokes. I was at the point of tossing the carbed engine and looking for a fuel injected model as they are much more able to handle the junk fuel we now typically have available. The race gas is wildly expensive at about $8 a gallon. I'll still use it since I'll only go through maybe 20 gallons per year with the great fuel economy of this engine. Another benefit of the race gas is its stability. Our junk ethanol blend can stratify in as little as 2 months. I've spoken with folks using the Sunoco juice that have had 5 year old fuel tested with the result of losing one point in octane, no varnish, no gum, no breakdown.
 
Eric... 1) have you looked at the gas treatments? I was a John Deere dealership over the weekend... and they sell the "Marine" treatment (I forget the brand... $14.00 for 80 gallons)... Morton is that the stuff that you are using???

2) Go to the local airport... the pilots there know which gas stations are selling non-ethanol. Rotax is a very common engine now and it runs on either leaded airplane fuel or non-ethanol car gas...

At $8/gallon... that's a heck of a premium.

Let me know when you are back this way, Morton and I want to go to the new Scaupoliath boat christening...

A>
 
A,

I am not sure what the Deere dealer has but i have tried a few with little results the current one is Seafoam it is hard to tell if it is working i have not been out enough to notice any difference , I was actually considering trading my 30 in for a fuel injected 30 or 40 but we will see how much use it gets this season . I would not mind finding some nonethanol fuel , can you check with the airport where you are flying from ? Call me this week i am meeting Jim T tonight for some reels his motr seized up last week he is not happy , i may need to get him out in the water before he dry up !!!


Dave M
 
http://www.buyrealgas.com/

Guys, this thread is about done, but I thought I would just chime in on the end and say BUY REAL gas is easier than you think. Check out this webpage or several like it on google and they will list stations near you that do NOT, repeat DO NOT add ethanol or at least sell premium gas without ethanol. My own engine runs like crap on the ethanol stuff and since switching back, my motor is back in the game so to speak. I always run 93 octane personally.

Good discussion on this thread, thanks to all.
 
Morton,

The boys drive a kawasaki mule... and we brought it out of the barn and it ran awful... the dealer said that it's ethanol... (and I suspect some dead - ethanol - gas left over this past winter)...

He handed us this bottle of "Marine" anti-ethanol stuff... and it's like $14/bottle... good for 80 gallons...

The Mule runs like a top now... If you are interested, call "Harvest Equipment" in Newport, VT... I'm in London right now, not returning for awhile... and I don't have the number... but I def. recommend this stuff.

Tell Jim T "hey" for me.
A
 
Thanks Andrew !! Have a great time in London get some bussiness done as well while you are there !!!





Dave
 
I can't thank all of you who have given me the many tid bits of advice I have received along the way. JUST GOT BACK WITH THE NEW 40 YAMAHA 4 STROKE. I think its going to be the right choice for me based on much of the discussion here.
I am glad I posted this subject or I would have bought the 25 Evinrude I was eyeing.
I am sure now that would have been a mistake.
 
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