Steven Alexander
Member
Not sure many dogs would find it comfortable. Especially at first. I would assume lots of chaffing. Ever tied a sock around a cat's belly? I loses use of its back legs. Wonder if a dog does the same? Just thinking out loud.
Some thoughts on Neoprene Dog Vests
- Thread starter Pete McMiller
- Start date
Not sure many dogs would find it comfortable. Especially at first. I would assume lots of chaffing. Ever tied a sock around a cat's belly? I loses use of its back legs. Wonder if a dog does the same? Just thinking out loud.
Matt Mahoney
Active member
I believe that the neoprene vests work. I also agree that they should fit snugly. If you stick your hand under a wet dog's vest it is very toastie under there. A hypothermic dog is very bad news.
A funny story regarding fit.....back when the vests first came on the market a friend bought one for his male lab. First time out when he lifted his leg, the result was running out the front leg holes! That's when we realized that sometimes you must use scissors to adapt the fit.
A funny story regarding fit.....back when the vests first came on the market a friend bought one for his male lab. First time out when he lifted his leg, the result was running out the front leg holes! That's when we realized that sometimes you must use scissors to adapt the fit.
Phil Nowack
Well-known member
Sorry.. this really isn't Chessie Bravado... but The proper retriever coat: the dog comes out of the water with the bird... drops the bird... shakes off... due to the oil on its coat.. the dog is essentially dry... WTH is a vest needed for?
Dean Barnes
Member
Never been a big fan of the vests, I always feel it's better to let the dog shake the water off than to trap it underneath a vest all day. Additionally, when it's really cold they up build up with ice and the dog ends up carrying an extra 10lbs by the end of the day. I bought them for both my chessies and stopped using them, the dogs seem happier without them and I've never had a problem with my dogs not performing because they're cold. I think vests are to make the dog owner feel better as opposed to the dogs.
Phil Nowack
Well-known member
If we had a like button on here... I would be liking your post Dean
David Stern
Active member
Bring back an old post. I have some thoughts.
Recently I have been using a wetsuit to go surfcasting. It allows me to wade deeper and get out to rocks I could not get to with traditional waders. Also getting knocked off of your perch is not as big a deal and there is added cushion. Anyway, it is great in the water but when you are standing on that rock in the fall with the wind blowing, it gets cold. The neoprene does not help, but hurts. I actually wear a light raincoat over my wetsuit to cut the wind and keep me warm. It works great. So I think the perfect solution would be to have a neoprene dog vest with a wind blocking material on the outside. Maybe that camo exterior is already a wind blocker. But I just wanted to add to the conversation as I have some practical experience using a wet suit and saw the parallels to what a dog predicament is while sitting on shore wet in his dog vest.
Recently I have been using a wetsuit to go surfcasting. It allows me to wade deeper and get out to rocks I could not get to with traditional waders. Also getting knocked off of your perch is not as big a deal and there is added cushion. Anyway, it is great in the water but when you are standing on that rock in the fall with the wind blowing, it gets cold. The neoprene does not help, but hurts. I actually wear a light raincoat over my wetsuit to cut the wind and keep me warm. It works great. So I think the perfect solution would be to have a neoprene dog vest with a wind blocking material on the outside. Maybe that camo exterior is already a wind blocker. But I just wanted to add to the conversation as I have some practical experience using a wet suit and saw the parallels to what a dog predicament is while sitting on shore wet in his dog vest.
So much for using wolves and coyotes as a model to argue digestibility and utilization of protein, carbs, and fat in domestic dogs. http://www.nature.com/...ull/nature11837.html
The wetsuit example fails to consider several points pertinent to most hunting retriever breeds. Assuming you don't wash your hunting retriever every week with a harsh shampoo, your dog has a decent coating of hydrophobic oil on his skin and pelage, enabling it to trap air near the skin when immersed in water. While his or her coat may be wet, the layer near the skin remains dry. Dogs also possess a counter current veinous/arterial supply apparatus in their legs, made more efficient by their fur coat and thoracic structure, enabling them to maintain their core temperatue well in extreme cold. Dogs will "curl up" in extreme cold, minimizing the exposure of their peritoneal body section to heat loss, as well as tucking their nose under a limb to access inspired air that is warmer than ambient. A wetsuit traps the water against a human's skin, maximizing rate of heat loss when ambient temps. are warmer than the water inside the suit. It does, however, slow rate of heat loss when a body is immersed since it adds another layer of insulation, as well as limiting the volume of water next to the wearer's skin that enables body heat loss rate to increase.
http://users.rcn.com/...H/HeatTransport.html
I would suggest you consider keeping the neoprene suit on the dog, dry its belly, legs, and ears well when it is back in the blind or boat, following a retrieve. Also, you may want to consider feeding it low volume high energy content snacks routinely during a cold weather hunt, as well as Warm, not HOT water in a bowl, which aids in maintaining hydration as well as background metabolic function.
A dog kept in a cold ambient air environment has the innate ability to raise its basal metabolic rate, also enhancing its ability to stay warm, since the number of calories burned per unit time, even at rest, is higher when compared to a like-size and breed animal that has been kept indoors for the same interval at a wamer ambient temperature. For humans, resetting basal metabolic rate usually requires about a month or so...
The wetsuit example fails to consider several points pertinent to most hunting retriever breeds. Assuming you don't wash your hunting retriever every week with a harsh shampoo, your dog has a decent coating of hydrophobic oil on his skin and pelage, enabling it to trap air near the skin when immersed in water. While his or her coat may be wet, the layer near the skin remains dry. Dogs also possess a counter current veinous/arterial supply apparatus in their legs, made more efficient by their fur coat and thoracic structure, enabling them to maintain their core temperatue well in extreme cold. Dogs will "curl up" in extreme cold, minimizing the exposure of their peritoneal body section to heat loss, as well as tucking their nose under a limb to access inspired air that is warmer than ambient. A wetsuit traps the water against a human's skin, maximizing rate of heat loss when ambient temps. are warmer than the water inside the suit. It does, however, slow rate of heat loss when a body is immersed since it adds another layer of insulation, as well as limiting the volume of water next to the wearer's skin that enables body heat loss rate to increase.
http://users.rcn.com/...H/HeatTransport.html
I would suggest you consider keeping the neoprene suit on the dog, dry its belly, legs, and ears well when it is back in the blind or boat, following a retrieve. Also, you may want to consider feeding it low volume high energy content snacks routinely during a cold weather hunt, as well as Warm, not HOT water in a bowl, which aids in maintaining hydration as well as background metabolic function.
A dog kept in a cold ambient air environment has the innate ability to raise its basal metabolic rate, also enhancing its ability to stay warm, since the number of calories burned per unit time, even at rest, is higher when compared to a like-size and breed animal that has been kept indoors for the same interval at a wamer ambient temperature. For humans, resetting basal metabolic rate usually requires about a month or so...
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RLLigman, good post.
Those who say they have seen a dog refuse to go in the water because it is cold, it is very likely the dog was on the edge of Hypothermia. I have a friend, dog trainer at one time, almost lose a dog last year to hypothermia. This guy knows dogs and still almost didnt catch it in time. Said it was a long scary boat ride back to the ramp and the warm truck. He left his whole rig and went back to retrieve it later.
I dont use a vest early season, but once the snow flies I do.
I let him run around and shake off after every retrieve. If he starts looking cold in the blind, we go for a walk, and he runs around. I do use a 3" thick block of styrofoam for a pad in his blind. It keeps him off the ground and out of the water. He loves his blind, and it is amazing how much water ends up in there.
Those who say they have seen a dog refuse to go in the water because it is cold, it is very likely the dog was on the edge of Hypothermia. I have a friend, dog trainer at one time, almost lose a dog last year to hypothermia. This guy knows dogs and still almost didnt catch it in time. Said it was a long scary boat ride back to the ramp and the warm truck. He left his whole rig and went back to retrieve it later.
I dont use a vest early season, but once the snow flies I do.
I let him run around and shake off after every retrieve. If he starts looking cold in the blind, we go for a walk, and he runs around. I do use a 3" thick block of styrofoam for a pad in his blind. It keeps him off the ground and out of the water. He loves his blind, and it is amazing how much water ends up in there.
Phil Nowack
Well-known member
Seriously... you cannot make that statement. My chessies are nearly dry after shaking off... hunted springs in -5 temp... Never an issue of hypothermia...
A properly fed an nourished dog, that was born and bred to retrieve ducks, will have the appropriate coat. Just don't make them stand in water at those temps.
A properly fed an nourished dog, that was born and bred to retrieve ducks, will have the appropriate coat. Just don't make them stand in water at those temps.
Was that the statement I made?
Maybe I should make it more clear? If your normally gungho duck dog uncharacteristically balks, it may be that he is too cold. Hopefully it never happens to any of you. But it only takes once, and it happens quickly. The guy I referenced owns at least 5 labs right now. All good , well bred, well conditioned, properly fed dogs. He and his son hunt nearly ever day of our 107 days season. His dogs get a LOT of work. He was a professional trainer in the past. If it can happen to him, it can happen to anyone. He didnt see it coming either. His dog nearly died before they could get back to the truck.
My dog hunts below zero too, but it doesnt make him invincible or perfect.
Maybe I should make it more clear? If your normally gungho duck dog uncharacteristically balks, it may be that he is too cold. Hopefully it never happens to any of you. But it only takes once, and it happens quickly. The guy I referenced owns at least 5 labs right now. All good , well bred, well conditioned, properly fed dogs. He and his son hunt nearly ever day of our 107 days season. His dogs get a LOT of work. He was a professional trainer in the past. If it can happen to him, it can happen to anyone. He didnt see it coming either. His dog nearly died before they could get back to the truck.
My dog hunts below zero too, but it doesnt make him invincible or perfect.
I obviously didn't see the dog in the example you outline.
The one thing that stands out for me is the command refusal. I suspect it was not a refusal to obey, so much as a clear indicator that the dog was in hypothemia and already was losing neuromuscular control. If the dog can't process the command, it cannot respond correctly. A balky or physically akward retreiver in cold weather hunt situations is not necessarily a "refusal dog".
A friend and I hunted a large bay on the Lake Michigan side of the peninsula duing Super Storm Sandy's passage a couple of years back. The seiche from the storm had dropped the water over a foot when we arrived on the spit to begin setting decoys. There was an additional three hundred feet or more of slimy exposed flat limestone cobble that would normally have been covered in water that was now where we would be setting up. Joe began rigging our decoys from the two sleds and our ponchos and I put some gloves on and started to make some makeshift blinds along shore out of flat limestone cobble upwind of a couple of existing depressions along the water's edge. I brought two closed cell Army surplus sleeping pads for us to lay down on and one smaller pad for my lab, Dugan. Birds were working in while we were still setting decoys...
The mallards weren't very impressed by our spread, but some did commit. The divers loved us-scaup,redheads, and an occasional can. Everything was going well with several short retrieves done by the dog. Once we realized how quickly downed birds would blow away, we only took individuals that were trying to land just off shore a handful of yards. Then I made the mistake of taking a drake goldeneye. I put two more rounds across him while he was still upside down and sent the dog. He righted himself and starting to empty his air sacs and sink his profile. Joe and I "crossed" him with at least three more rounds before Dugan closed in. He dove, popped up, and dove again several times with the dog in pursuit. By that time both of us were also in the water wading to cut him off before he made it out to open water. We failed to recover that bird. The major issue for me, beyond loss of a bird injured, was to get the dog out of the water he had been swimming in for over five minutes. When we got back to shore, I shoved a hand up inside his vest to determine how wet he was;not much water inside the vest. I put him back on his mat and took off my hunting coat,turned it inside-out to use as a blanket and wind barrier and wrapped it over my dog. As I watched him, I would occasionally say "Birds", which always makes him perk-up and look around. Over the next ten minutes or so it became evident that he wasn't responding to my verbal prompts. I unloaded my gun and told my partner we were headed back to the truck. I noticed he was pretty "wobbly" over the first half of the long trip to the truck, but his gait improved as we progressed. I grabbed a couple of dog towels out of the pack in the back and dried him down after I pulled his vest off. After a half-hour of sitting in his dog sling with an couple of fleece fabric scraps wrapped around him and the vehicle heater running full force, he began to come around. I gave him some dog food in warm water and he ate it quickly-good signal that he was recovering! I eventually shut the truck off and headed back down the spit to pull decoys and march them back into that MONSTER wind. We were bone tired when we finally finished, but I had a fully recovered dog, a good hunt with a friend, and several duck dinners in-hand!
I think Dugan was eight or nine at that time, so his age likely did play a role. That is how quickly hypothermia onset can happen. A lethargic or mildly unresponsive retriever in cold weather conditions is a vey clear signal for you to act to protect its health and well being.
The one thing that stands out for me is the command refusal. I suspect it was not a refusal to obey, so much as a clear indicator that the dog was in hypothemia and already was losing neuromuscular control. If the dog can't process the command, it cannot respond correctly. A balky or physically akward retreiver in cold weather hunt situations is not necessarily a "refusal dog".
A friend and I hunted a large bay on the Lake Michigan side of the peninsula duing Super Storm Sandy's passage a couple of years back. The seiche from the storm had dropped the water over a foot when we arrived on the spit to begin setting decoys. There was an additional three hundred feet or more of slimy exposed flat limestone cobble that would normally have been covered in water that was now where we would be setting up. Joe began rigging our decoys from the two sleds and our ponchos and I put some gloves on and started to make some makeshift blinds along shore out of flat limestone cobble upwind of a couple of existing depressions along the water's edge. I brought two closed cell Army surplus sleeping pads for us to lay down on and one smaller pad for my lab, Dugan. Birds were working in while we were still setting decoys...
The mallards weren't very impressed by our spread, but some did commit. The divers loved us-scaup,redheads, and an occasional can. Everything was going well with several short retrieves done by the dog. Once we realized how quickly downed birds would blow away, we only took individuals that were trying to land just off shore a handful of yards. Then I made the mistake of taking a drake goldeneye. I put two more rounds across him while he was still upside down and sent the dog. He righted himself and starting to empty his air sacs and sink his profile. Joe and I "crossed" him with at least three more rounds before Dugan closed in. He dove, popped up, and dove again several times with the dog in pursuit. By that time both of us were also in the water wading to cut him off before he made it out to open water. We failed to recover that bird. The major issue for me, beyond loss of a bird injured, was to get the dog out of the water he had been swimming in for over five minutes. When we got back to shore, I shoved a hand up inside his vest to determine how wet he was;not much water inside the vest. I put him back on his mat and took off my hunting coat,turned it inside-out to use as a blanket and wind barrier and wrapped it over my dog. As I watched him, I would occasionally say "Birds", which always makes him perk-up and look around. Over the next ten minutes or so it became evident that he wasn't responding to my verbal prompts. I unloaded my gun and told my partner we were headed back to the truck. I noticed he was pretty "wobbly" over the first half of the long trip to the truck, but his gait improved as we progressed. I grabbed a couple of dog towels out of the pack in the back and dried him down after I pulled his vest off. After a half-hour of sitting in his dog sling with an couple of fleece fabric scraps wrapped around him and the vehicle heater running full force, he began to come around. I gave him some dog food in warm water and he ate it quickly-good signal that he was recovering! I eventually shut the truck off and headed back down the spit to pull decoys and march them back into that MONSTER wind. We were bone tired when we finally finished, but I had a fully recovered dog, a good hunt with a friend, and several duck dinners in-hand!
I think Dugan was eight or nine at that time, so his age likely did play a role. That is how quickly hypothermia onset can happen. A lethargic or mildly unresponsive retriever in cold weather conditions is a vey clear signal for you to act to protect its health and well being.
David Stern
Active member
Rick:
This is a great conversation and education. I am training my second lab now and always am looking to learn something new. I will use the vest when it gets colder. I am going to take Jet this Saturday for his first real, non-preserve hunt. He will not be wear the vest this weekend. Still too warm. We are going for Woodies and Mallards.
Why do you say to dry his ears off? Is that an area where there is heat loss? Also are there good high energy snacks that one could recommend.
Thanks
Stern
This is a great conversation and education. I am training my second lab now and always am looking to learn something new. I will use the vest when it gets colder. I am going to take Jet this Saturday for his first real, non-preserve hunt. He will not be wear the vest this weekend. Still too warm. We are going for Woodies and Mallards.
Why do you say to dry his ears off? Is that an area where there is heat loss? Also are there good high energy snacks that one could recommend.
Thanks
Stern