sSteel shot, old doubles

Good concept, but you need to take into account a risk premium.

I think we'd need to ask what cost we would associate with the risk that we blow up that gun, lose appendages, eyesight, our life or the lives of a loved one or hunting partner?

For me that risk is too high to take the chance. I would rather use the proper shells, or hunt with a modern firearm that is designed for the pressures.

For others that are more comfortable with risk, the financial cost may be a valid model.

Charlie
 
charlie you won't be loosing any appendages especially if you stick with well made older gun and slower speed steel, which is cheaper anyways. any problem that you may get will be up by the chokes as a buldge. I would bet the risk is higher shooting those high speed steel through many cheaper modern guns or you could always just shoot it out of a damascous gun, they don't fail as violently as regular steel.
 
Worth thanks for the info. THis Greener is a Far-Killer model and I like it a lot. I may consider getting it openned. My season was a very good one and I hope your's was too. Little Hank had his first duck hunt this past fall and that made it a very special season for sure. I'll talk to you soon. Thanks HHG
 
I dont shoot much steel shot through my vintage guns, mostly because I use them more for upland bird shooting. But if and when I do I tend to error on the safe side and shoot steel through the guns with I/C & Mod chokes for two reasons, first I don't think the steel loads will find enough resistance in a Mod choke let alone an I/C barrel. Second, todays loads are tighter patterning than the old loads thus you can get by nicely with I/C & Mod choked guns especially shooting over decoys as I do 90% of the time.

The choke of a gun is more of a concern to me than the steel shot. On the other hand even with modern guns steel can be a problem in full choked barrels. I have seen older (pre-Expess) Remington 870 FULL CHOKE barrels buldged and split by firing steel shot in them. And at the same time a friend of mine has put over 1,000 rounds of 3" mag steel shells through his 1970's ere Remington 870 3" mag with no ill effects to date.

So, to me drawing a line in teh sand as to what can and can't be done if still an unclear area, especially with vintage guns. I have had vintage doubles that were so extra full they nearly shot like a rifle. Steel just does have teh "give" that lead does and that is where the problem starts.

Like BillS says, the problem will not be in the action area (that is the strongest part of the gun) if anything gives it will be at the muzzle. When you see a gun blow at the chamber area it is normally caused by one of 3 things, a smaller ga. shell dropped in by mistake and fired, 2 some form of barrel blockage between the fired shell and the end of the muzzle or just a really BAD reload that has 36 grains of Bullseye in it instead of 36 grains of Blue Dot, etc.

Be safe first and at the end of the day be thankfull.

Dave
 
To my way way of thinking, why take the chance of boogering up a fine, classic, double gun by shooting steel when there are other, safer, potentially better performing options out there??

That being said, has anyone tried the Hevi-Shot Classic Doubles ammunition????
 
Good concept, but you need to take into account a risk premium.

I think we'd need to ask what cost we would associate with the risk that we blow up that gun, lose appendages, eyesight, our life or the lives of a loved one or hunting partner?

For me that risk is too high to take the chance. I would rather use the proper shells, or hunt with a modern firearm that is designed for the pressures.

For others that are more comfortable with risk, the financial cost may be a valid model.

Charlie
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Guns being hurt and guns blowing up are two completely different things. The pressures shotguns can handle hasn't changed since WWII, maybe even WWI. These guns are not going to blow up if they are in good condition just like a new 870 isn't going to blow up if in good condition. Either in bad shape can blow up.
It is true that shotguns could be built to handle more pressure now but I don't think anyone does so except for the 3 1/2" guns, and I wouldn't recommend any old guns be opened up to shoot those. Using better steel they can make them lighter and thinner but most still handle the same pressure.
The warnings about guns being 'ruined' were made to cover the manufacturers butts and make people believe they needed new guns. Like Worth said it can cause a slight bulge near the choke in tight choked guns, that sounds much worse then it is. I shoot a 50+ year old winchester that has a slight bulge if you look at it at the right angle and in the right light. The gun isn't going to hurt anyone that way, it has shot mostly steel for 20 years and still shoots like a full choke. That and scratches in the barrel, they don't effect the function, are all that will happen to any gun in good shape made to handle modern pressures.

Tim
 
Ed Gagne tried it. It took an act of congress for him to locate a box of the stuff last fall, but he finally found some and got it in time for the end of the season

Finding it at that time was virtually impossible up here. Price-wise, I think it was somewhere between "an arm" and "an arm and a leg".
 
Never understood why a non-tox can't fit in the slot between steel at 50 cents and high tech at $3. That is a wide gap and someone could really get market share if they came to market at $1-1.5 per shell (box of 25 shells between $25 and $37)!
 
Mike, why sell for 1.50 when the market will bare 3.00? All hevi shot is is slag waste from manufacuring that they used to have to pay to dispose of. After looking at the 10lbs I bought last year...there are some weird fricken shapes in there. I screened my "#6" and got 1/2 6 and bigger and 1/2 smaller..probably 9-7's and some of it went through the holes cause it was long and skinny. The stuff works but it does knock the hell out of the nice round theory in lead and steel pellets. Anybody have a 28ga slug mold?
 
yea they just had a blurb in shooting times on hevi shot classic double. the load i shot were 1 1/8 oz 5's moving at 1250 fps. i think i payed $30 a box of ten. yea its pricey and im not sure yet how i feel about it. im going to pattern my fox in with it friday night so i can hunt turkeys sat. my chokes are mod and full so i should be all set to 30 yrds.

we shall see......

i'll let you guys know how many bbs make it in the turkeys head at 30yds ;)

eddie
 
Backing up what BillS said the Ambrust study was published in the Double Gun Journal, I believe.

The most pertinent information was pressure transient data comparing smokeless shells (I believe Blue Dot) vs. black powder.

Pressure data was collected at the chamber, down stream (around ones off hand fingers), and near the muzzle, as well as the transient (time) for the pressure to develop.

The traces were almost identical for the tested smokeless and BP, pressures within ±50 or so psig. And, this (in addition to some other evidence) led to a reasonable conclussion that a lot of the ruptured barrels were due to obstructions, not smokeless loads.

There were also some other destructive tests wherein over 30 proof loads were fired in (high grade) damascus barrels. And, those barrels withstood over 30 firings. I think proofs are 1.8 x the max SAMMI pressure.

Now, as for steel I'd like to see pressure transients for steel vs. lead before making my decision.

But, for damascus or fluid steel, in good shape, I'd be rolling some Blue Dot and not looking back.

Regards,

Bob
 
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well i patterned that shotgun, well at least the full choked barrel with that hevi classic shot. in a basket ball sized circle i counted 31 bbs the first shot and 33 the second at 30 yrds. i would love to shoot more but with the price and needing some of the ammo for the rest of turkey season these two shots will do.

at 30 yrds i know i can kill a bird father then that could be another story.

btw my gunsmith did an excellent job re-beding the stock and it shoots beautifully. i'll be taking it to the skeet range tomorrow after i get done chasing big toms.

eddie
 
Ed, I would at least take one shot through the other barrel. I have denser patterns with steel and hevi with imp cyl than I do with mod or full.
 
31 pellets in a circle that big is not all that many. I know you had a bitch of a time getting shells, but hevi #6's or lead would get you a denser pattern and closer to 40 yards.
 
i know it wasent scientific and i may have mess up the shot. i'll try the other barrel and see. i brought the gun to the range today and had the safety kick back on after every shot, so........i will have to bring it back to the smith and have him check it out. i still shot a 21 the first round although i optioned not to shoot doubles. my second round was terrible but the third round was back at 20 so it went well. the gun fits me great and i think once i get the safety thing straightend out i should be back up to the 23-25 range.

next year i will have it refinished and reblued. tomorrow i hope i can get up early enough to hunt some turkeys before work. itd be awesome to shoot one with this gun.

eddie
 
Worth-

As far as using steel shot..... do you think this would apply to old pumps as well, especially Model 12's? I have an old 16 ga, but really have my heart set on a 3" Heavy Duck model 12 some day. If so, should I at least get the choke opened up from full to Mod or Improved?

Thanks,
 
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Kirk, I currently have my father's Model 12 20 bore. I took the full choke out to mod. A couple of years ago I had a 12 bore heavy duck. I did the same thing. I might be wrong, but I think Model 12s were choked very tight in most cases, especially the heavy ducks. I'd take the full choke out of any Model 12 prior to using steel. Some spam: I found a heavy duck over in England, and purchased it. I should have it over here by July, and on the web page. Worth
 
Worth

I just finished inletting a new foreend cap into that Greener last night, it turned out well. I'll try to post some before/after pics soon....

Josh
 
Did anyone see the 4 patterns of #4 shot out of ic,mod,full. and xfull, at 30 yards? It is at, www.niceshotinc.com. I am not promoting nice shot ($1.75 per shell to load 1 1/4 ounce, and that is just the shot!), but if you scroll down and hit on the patterns, it is really amazing how improved cylinder has the tightest pattern. When Michael McIntosh said that choke was not needed with todays modern loads, I thought he was crazy, but the patterning of the nice shot certainly proves his point.

On a side note, I had the Grulla Amera mag opened up to .008 and .018. Looking forward to patterning various steel loads this afternoon or tomorrow. Picked up 2 cases of slower #3 and #4 shot Remington steel for $5 per box
 
Mike,great buy on that Rem ammo.The nice shot at $60 for 2.2lbs,plus shipping would price each 11/4 load, over $2.75,I believe.Do you have a sourse for that shot at a lower price?
 
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