Student Suspened for Drill Team Practice Rifle..NDR

After reading the article several times I don't see where it says she knew the rule and broke it anyway. What I gather is she admits she made a mistake and that the student handbook covers the gun rule, but nowhere did I read she consciously chose to ignore the rule which Steve states she admitted to. Further I never saw where it said she knew the consequences of the rule, as Steve stated. I think Steve made a leap as to the student's knowledge, prior to getting herself in touble, to make his own point. Had she signed a copy of the handbook agreeing to comply then he'd be correct that she's be responsible for the content. Do we even know how widely distributed the handbooks are? The school district needs to make certain the info is distributed and understood by all students, above or below average. They should probably have a policy of no signature, no admittance, to help prevent situations like this. These are kids, not adults. Just tossing some handbook out and saying you should have known isn't the best practice for prevention. One other thing has to be raised. How consistent is the district and school at enforcing the rules? I have witnessed firsthand rules being ignored in my kids school. If they are going to hold her feet to the fire they'd better be prepared to do it everytime regardless of circumstances. I doubt that.

The article does say it's up to the school district to use their discretion as to the punishment. I hope she is not expelled. This isn't a case of her bringing a gun to intimidate or shoot a teacher or fellow student. Clearly she had a bonified intended use for the practice rifle. With no other past incidents on her record this to me is definitely not the person to throw the book at or run over with a bus. Without doubt there are plenty of students that should be expelled before her and if she is expelled I bet her offense is trivial compared to theirs. I certainly feel you shouldn't expell a first-time offendor whose intentions were good and for which no harm came. If I had a voice in the matter I would urge the school board for leniency based upon the students record, intentions, and the actual outcome.

Now if I could find out what punk got in my truck last night, stole my cell phone and binoculars and other items I'd gladly drive the bus all over that SOB.
 
Wait a minute Eric. By your argument we should all have to sign off on the rules and regs for hunting, driving, etc. before we can be held responsible for abiding by them? I certainly don't see that argument be upheld in a court of law. Remember ignorance is no excuse.

As for the article, the girl admits to making a mistake and states that she is willing to be held responsible for it. The district policy is mandatory expulsion for this type of offense. The part I don't get is where the superintendent gets to decide how long the expulsion is for. I thought expulsion meant you were out...gone...period. Since the district's interpretation of "expulsion" is really more of a "suspension" the policy and rule is being followed to the letter, which should make Steve happy, and she will likely have the extenuating circumstances considered in the length of her "expulsion" making the rest of you all happy. Problem solved.
 
Greg

It's not a court of law, it's a school board. In Alabama, before we get a driver's license or a hunting license there is instruction, in the case of a driver's license a one-year period for which we must operate the vehicle with adult supervision, coursework, and a test. Maybe not comprehesive of every law but you have to meet requirements that the state puts forth to maintain a minimum competency level of a driver or hunter. In other words the state makes an effort so that people know the laws about operating a vehicle or shooting a deer.

Part of the point I was making that most here were saying she knew it was wrong and that made it worse on her part. NOWHERE did the article say she knew she was breaking the law having a practice rifle in her car, beforehand. Certainly ignornace of the law isn't an excuse but folks are assuming she did know and basically saying "fry the dumb bitch, she knew."

Like I said before if it were me on the board I'd have to weigh all of the circumstances, and from this vantage point the infraction doesn't warrant expulsion.
 
Part of the point I was making that most here were saying she knew it was wrong and that made it worse on her part. NOWHERE did the article say she knew she was breaking the law having a practice rifle in her car, beforehand. Certainly ignornace of the law isn't an excuse but folks are assuming she did know and basically saying "fry the dumb bitch, she knew."
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Ok, I get what you meant. I just think that whether she signed off on knowing the rules or not she should still be held to them. Like you, I also think that those who stand in judgement of this young lady should consider the intent of the offender and the spirit of the rule in deciding her punishment. Since it appears that a mandatory expulsion is not really an expulsion but a time out for a period to be determined by the superintendent, I'm sure her punishment will be minimal but still within the rules of the district.

BTW At the schools out here the kids and parents are given a form to sign stating they have been given the handbook and agree to abide by the rules within it...most teachers seem to offer "extra credit" for those who actually return the form.
 
the first article clearly states that the issue of guns, or facsimiles of same, is covered int he STUDENT HANDBOOK......

The girl admits it was "her mistake"....if you admit to a mistake" then by definition you are admitting that you knew what was right....

I do admit that I made "an assumption" that this girl goes to a school where during the first week of school there are MANY assemblies where factulty and adminstration go over the "rules" of the school, whats allowed and whats not, and also make sure that the student body UNDERSTANDS that their conduct is goverened by the student handbook, (my mistake there for the assumption but I'd bet that her school does exactly that and I'd also bet that shes' sat throught several of them at this point-----AND I'll also bet that sometime in her career as a GOOD STUDENT that some kid in her school has been taken down for the violating the gun rule so unless she's spent her HighSchool career with her hjead planted firmly in the parade ground sand SHE KNEW that having the guns in her car was wrong)

Back to the student handbook....are they required to read it and sign off on it...no...but then neither will this young lady be ready to sign on having read and comprehended the USMJ but you can bet she'll be held to its standards when she "makes a mistake".......

Bill, help us out here....your son is in the Young Marines....and on the drill team, not in the same school, but I'm sure that the YOUNG MARINES strongly urge their members to follow not only THEIR rules but those of the schools as well.....so what the rules at your sons school about "guns - or facsimiles of same"......just curious.....do they specify where Drill Weapons are to be stored when not in use?....again not the same since its not the same school but, geeeeee, I bet the Young Marines have rules of their own.....

In the end, since as pointed out by the Mr.Folkman, I like to here myself talk, have a kid taken down, by force, in your wifes, or your childs, classroom, because he was packing A LOADED .357 magnum in his waistban, and you'll feel differently about rules that deal with guns, or facsimilies of ANY TYPE being the school yard.....have a kid enter your wifes, or childs, room waving a "facsimile" even a crude one, and you'll look at rules that say IN BLACK AND WHITE your dumb ass is gone in a different light.....

Rules are rules....make em and then enforce em.....if they suck change em.....

Steve
 
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Just to make a point on how ridiculous this can all get. A kid in Minnesota (please remember, this is the State where absolutely nothing is allowed) was suspended from scholl for drawing a picture of a gun. Broke the no gun rules that were in place. The "rule" was challenged and the kid exonerated but it happened because of a poorly written rule that was vague, just like the one refernced in the rule we are discussing here in this thread. Who gets to dtemine what is a close enough facsimili? I know of other instances where squirt guns got kids thrown out. Did it look like a gun? I don't think so, the schools disagreed. I would say the gun was pink, plastic, see through, small and squirted water did not constitute a reasonable facsimili.

Some rules exist to make life easier for someone who is too lazy to do their jobs or doesn't want the expense of a good rule.

Also, what good does the gun rule that is in place at this school do to deter someone who wants to come in a wipe out 50 kids. Is it going to stop them? Is this broken rule going to be the charge that is brought against this kid? Is this what is going to bring him/her down? Make the rule that no guns are allowed on school grounds or in any of the buildings and leave it at that. That is a law that is a good one and enforceable.

Finally, what is gained by expelling the student in question. The school gets to be tough against a liberal law it doens't like. They don't like guns so let's ban them and anything like them from anywhere near a school. It is as much a political statement more than a rule to protect the kids. How are kids really harmed after seeing the gun in question? Did the school need to bring in the counselors to help the kids work through their "pain" and "suffering". If a kid can't handle seeing an obviously fake gun, they won't be able to handle life outside of high school.

Don't mean to be an ass on this. Silly rules and laws make all of us law breakers. Spend the time and money on something that matters, not a white wooden gun made with duct tape.

Mark W
 
Websters definition of "Mistake" transitive verb1: to blunder in the choice of <mistook her way in the dark>2 a: to misunderstand the meaning or intention of : misinterpret <don't mistake me, I mean exactly what I said> b: to make a wrong judgment of the character or ability of3: to identify wrongly : confuse with another <I mistook him for his brother>intransitive verb: to be wrong <you mistook when you thought I laughed at you — Thomas Hardy> — mis·tak·en·ly adverb — mis·tak·er noun
 
Steve, my sons Young Marine unit meets and drills at a school in the same county in which we live. I have looked at his High School student hand book where it clearly states no weapons of any type i.e. guns, knives or items that can bring harm to another are permitted in school or on school property. Now our unit meets on Wednesdays and we enter the same school, the color guard with their American and Marine Corp Flags march in along with two YM's and the same exact rifles that this young lady had in her car. In the 5 years we have been doing this we have never been questioned by the school board, arrested or asked to stop. It may be a mental thing as Quantico MCB is just down the street, the Pentagon is up the road who knows. But it's clearly in our schools rule book...no guns what so ever and yes your child (student) and the parent Must sign the back page of the rule book and turn it in the first week of school every year. I think you guys bring up a lot of great points but I have to stick with no matter how silly she broke the rules. Remember the YM's is a Marine Corp League sponsered outfit, the kids range in age from 8 to HS graduation. There are units that are comprised of possible troubled kids, but most are smart, good homes, good grade kids that want to be successful and possibly a leader someday. This young lady will be ok in the long run, she'll get a slap on the wrist and learn a valuable lesson one that I think she will grow from. She won't be vendictive, she'll enter the Academy as planned where she'll learn their are even more rules not just civilian but military. I've learned from this that yes everyone has their own opinion and interpatation, it sounds like what's the rule one place may not be in the other. Regardless Rules are Rules and the safety of our childern and our teachers must be upheld and rules followed. Remember this is Virginia and the shooting at Virginia Tech a few years back makes everyone tread kightly when a gun is seen on school grounds.

Bill
 
will bust my ass for making it but I'd suspect that some "arrangement" has been made so that the color guard, etc. rifle drill team, is granted an exception to the rule because of who they are AND because of the conditions of the agreement....I know specifically that that is the case at my wife's school where they have an ROTC drill team that drills with what are likely "rifles" that are closely similar to the ones your son, and the young lady use....(and which I might add for people like Mark W. look pretty authentic from a distance and that if I wasn't familiar with real guns would look even more real, both from afar and up close)....

So..the school has rules and I'd bet that the Young Marines also have rules regarding the disposition of these training rifles for the very purpose of keeping problems like this from occuring......just curious what those might be for your son? And if he violated their rule on storage what would there punishment be?

Steve
 
Steve has brought up a very good point about rules in school and I believe his assumption is based upon how his wife's school functions. Really, all of us, reading this should have made the same assumption. If I am correct, his wife is a very fortunate teacher. The administration informs the students what the rules are, they get a student handbook and have to sign a statement they have read it, and the faculty and staff enforce the rules. This is how the military does it. You have classes on the UCMJ, and a failure to follow them ... well you have consequences.

In my 65 years, only once did I have a principal lay done the law. My older daughter started middle school after the school year started and when we signed in, the principal sat down with her and explained the rules. Each year he took each class and did that. In the time that I taught only one principal did this. The enforcement of the rules lasted about two weeks and only a few of us worked to keep the rules after that. As for how would you feel .... helpless. Lost a lot of sleep. Your attitude toward the students changes and you wonder if one has a weapon on them. In my case the administrators knew there was a gun at school, in my hall but did not tell anyone. There was a group of students that kept passing it from one to the other to keep from being caught. After five police officers came in, they caught them. Five had been in my room during that time. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know what went through my head ... we were lucky.

This young lady is hoping she can take her AP test. AP classes are supposed to be college level work and she is unaware of the reactions within school districts over any weapon .... go figure.
 
In my 65 years, only once did I have a principal lay done the law. My older daughter started middle school after the school year started and when we signed in, the principal sat down with her and explained the rules. Each year he took each class and did that. In the time that I taught only one principal did this. The enforcement of the rules lasted about two weeks and only a few of us worked to keep the rules after that. As for how would you feel .... helpless. Lost a lot of sleep. Your attitude toward the students changes and you wonder if one has a weapon on them. In my case the administrators knew there was a gun at school, in my hall but did not tell anyone. There was a group of students that kept passing it from one to the other to keep from being caught. After five police officers came in, they caught them. Five had been in my room during that time. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to know what went through my head ... we were lucky.
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Kind of made my point for me. There was a rule in place to not have guns in school and it didn't stop the bad apples from bringing one in did it? The bad don't give a crap about the rules and will break them irregardless of the consequences. The only ones who are hurt by stupid rules are law abiding good citizens like the girl we are discussing. Make a reasonable law like allowing no real guns on school grounds accomplishes the same thing doesn't it? It keeps the real guns out of the schools. I'm not disagreeing with the intent of the law, just the language behind the stupid law. And as far as telling the difference between a real gun and the drill gun. If they were close enough to see the guns inside the girls car, they were close enough to see they weren't real guns. From across a football field or down the road, they do look close enough to be questioned. From less than 5 feet away - not a chance. Once again, if they can't tell a real gun from an obviously fake gun at 5 feet, they have bigger problems than we are discussing here. Maybe we need to be teaching gun identification in schools. Mark W
 
I dont' know which to comment on first. The ugly blouse or the fact that the practice rifle sure is realistic.
 
would look "obviously fake" from 5' away to someone that wasn't familiar with guns?

After seeing the pictures in the link that Eric posted I can definately see how a non-gun person could see a pile of those in the back seat of a car and thinking GUN....sure doesn't look like a white 2'X4" and duct tape to me......

Course I'm sure its the liberal press trying to railroad her with a fact picture.....

Steve
 
That gun is different than what was mentioned in another's post. I thought we were talking about a white gun with duct tape wrapped around it and a pipe screwed in the end to resemble a barrell. I've seen those and they look nothing like a real gun. The one in the pic looks like a real gun.

Still doesn't merit an expulsion. Too much consequence for the mistake made.

Mark W
 
According to one news report:

"Other objects that are used in a threatening manner will be considered weapons," wrote former Superintendent Monte Moses in the 2008 Student Conduct and Discipline, Rights and Responsibilities booklet. Fascimile weapons "will also be considered weapons if they are used in a threatening or improper manner," wrote Moses.
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Morrow didn't violate the rules, maybe state laws but not school rules and the school district is presiding over this thing, not the state. Now the school district is sticking to the state law wording and not the above printed interpretation. They might want to re-issue amended handbooks if they are going to change interpretations and hold off suspending/expelling students until changes are given to the students. How can the student be suspended/expelled if the printed rulebook didn't dissallow her actions? The kid would have to be a lawyer to recognize the rulebook took liberties with the state law. The more I read about this the more stupid the school district looks.
 
Amole explained the school district’s policy mirrors state and federal laws about weapons in schools, and calls for "mandatory expulsion" when possessing a dangerous weapon in any school building.

A student conduct handbook states a dangerous weapon includes "a firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, or a firearm facsimile that could reasonably be mistaken for an actual firearm." _____________________________________________________________________________________________ I wasn't going to comment on the post, although it's an interesting read. One point no one has made is the fact she wasn't "possessing a dangerous weapon in any school building". They were in her vehicle. Jim s
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Steve, our drill guns are brought and removed from our meeting by our Company Commander or the drill team Captian. The guns are placed in OD green sleeves and placed in a larger bag for transport. I have never seen them brough in without being "Cased". We have performed for many parades, USO shows, TV programs with never a problem. Even I would have to look twice and maybe more had I seen her rifle in the back seat of a car. We also do not issue or give the weapon to our color guard to take home. They stay with the unit. Differnt parents may be used to transport the kids, flags, guns to various events buy never has a problem occurred...Knock on wood in this day and age.
 
WOW!!!! I just saw the picture from Erics post. This is not the same gun our unit uses nor is it the Standard Young marine weapon for the color guard. The first photo we recieved and related storey mentioned the White Service gun wrapped with duct tape for reasons unknown unless the stock was cracked. The gun in this photo would have me looking more than once, twice as it could be mistaken as the M 14. Now I have to wonder where she and her unit got these weapons. Maybe more then one rule was broken to include those of the YM's.
 
You certainly have a point Steve and yes I was in high school so long ago we were in a one roomed building that was illuminated by kerosene lamps and heated with a pot bellied stove. We couldn't dance because there were too many Southern Baptists on the school board thus no prom.

My Grandmother taught school for twenty five years and she could stare down a group of insurrectionist 5th graders with a glance. If the stare of doom didn't work she would apply a fli back paddle to some young asses. Different days (no street gangs on campus) The kids here now have to pass through a metal detctor on their way in to the building everyday so I understand your point of view too.

Harry
 
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