Luke Berkey
Well-known member
Young bird, messed up hormones, hybrid?
Thoughts on this one
- Thread starter Luke Berkey
- Start date
Dwight Harley
Well-known member
I thought a first that could be a mallard/wigeon cross but after seeing the speculum I thought more likely a mallard/black cross
Last edited:
Not necessarily a cross. Could very well be an older hen. Female birds in species that exhibit sexual dimorphism will attain drake coloration as they get older. It starts very subtle and eventually the a female can outright resemble a male if they live long enough. Even more interesting is that she will not have a summer eclipse plumage pattern like a drake. Only way to know if it is a hen in drakes clothes is to vent sex it and look for the male or female parts.
Derek Bendell
Active member
Based on your location, Black 25%, 75% Mallard. Bill is not that of a Brewer's and breast feathers don't have any Gadwall traits. Looks identical to many Mallard x Black Hybrids. Their genetic similarities make varying degrees of hybrid traits common especially in areas where both species coexist. I've shot plenty of hybrid Mottled x Mallards in FL that are very similar. The green as it appears on the head like it does is just how the Mallard characteristic manifests. Do your searches and you'll see that green head up high with buffy cheeks is typical of Mallard x Black or Mottled Hybrids. The bill is a good indicator and is 100% Mallard genotype...
Luke, I am also from south Jersey and have shot a few black/mallard hybrids, and they looked very similar. If you could give us a wing shot or a full bird shot(you probably ate it by now!) that would show more of the feathers of the body that would make it easier, but from the body plumage you can see and the bill that is likely what it is. The bill is a real tip off and one that doesn't always jump out at you because of the feather variation that always grabs my attention first. I agree with what Derek writes from strictly a field perspective, I am not into genetics to talk that language. I think I have shot 4 over the years, and I took the shots because they looked like a black duck but a little different(some days I don't shoot black ducks).Here are a few shots of a pair I shot about 6 years ago. What I picked up on these ducks was the white above the speculum on the hen, the drake I thought was a black until I got back to the camp and looked closer. Here is a picture of the hen and the wing. Because it is taken over the faded wood on the table, you can't really pick up on the faint white on the bottom of the speculum, which is common to black ducks but not always easy to see, but when in flight I could see both of the white lines, so I shot them both.
View attachment DSC00973 - Copy.JPG
Here is a shot of the head of the same duck, classic features of a hen or immature drake black duck.
View attachment bill shot.jpg
And here is a picture of the drake, you can just see the green feathers in the head, but not much else as far as mallard feathers goes. But the bill kind of jumps out at you.
View attachment DSC00972 - Copy.JPG
Hope you found this interesting.
View attachment DSC00973 - Copy.JPG
Here is a shot of the head of the same duck, classic features of a hen or immature drake black duck.
View attachment bill shot.jpg
And here is a picture of the drake, you can just see the green feathers in the head, but not much else as far as mallard feathers goes. But the bill kind of jumps out at you.
View attachment DSC00972 - Copy.JPG
Hope you found this interesting.
Luke Berkey
Well-known member
Thanks for the replies guys, This is a cell phone pic from right after I shot it.
My first thought was black x mallard but most of the black x mallards I have shot have looked a lot more black then mallard. I sent the above pic to a biologist buddy of mine and he thought pure mallard probably hen with messed up hormones. I have heard that pure blacks can actually have a little green on their heads and that the white on the speculum feathers isn't definitive way to tell either. Something about the white being on the top or the bottom of the blueish area determines if it has any mallard in it. I no idea if that is accurate.
Here is a duck, I got a few years ago, I considered to be a black x mallard cross.
Its hard to see in this pic but there are a few specs of green behind the eye and on the back of the head
I don't think you would see this much green on a pure black.
This is a duck I saw in a local park near me a few years ago. Looks almost identical to the one I shot,
My first thought was black x mallard but most of the black x mallards I have shot have looked a lot more black then mallard. I sent the above pic to a biologist buddy of mine and he thought pure mallard probably hen with messed up hormones. I have heard that pure blacks can actually have a little green on their heads and that the white on the speculum feathers isn't definitive way to tell either. Something about the white being on the top or the bottom of the blueish area determines if it has any mallard in it. I no idea if that is accurate.
Here is a duck, I got a few years ago, I considered to be a black x mallard cross.
Its hard to see in this pic but there are a few specs of green behind the eye and on the back of the head
I don't think you would see this much green on a pure black.
This is a duck I saw in a local park near me a few years ago. Looks almost identical to the one I shot,
). 
TimJ
Well-known member
Its probably an F2 or F3 hybrid bred back to mallard so it looks more mallardy. Did you happen to take a photo of the bottom of the wings? Even that mallard looking it might still have some dark feathers in the white, another way to ID them.
The hen with screwed up hormones might be a possibility with some mallards that look like this... but all the hens I have seen like that retained the hen bill.
Cool looking hybrid. Too bad its not a Brewers Duck.
Tim
The hen with screwed up hormones might be a possibility with some mallards that look like this... but all the hens I have seen like that retained the hen bill.
Cool looking hybrid. Too bad its not a Brewers Duck.
Tim
Last edited:
TimJ
Well-known member
The bills may change but it must be the last thing to go. I've seen some very drakey hens in person and in photos that had very orange bills.
It really doesn't matter on this one cause it isn't a hen. Not a single feather on it says hen to me. All the hormone challenged hens I've seen are a combination of hen and drake feathers. They look more like an eclipse drake. However there are plenty of black duck looking feathers on that drake.
Tim
If they go long enough they will not resemble a hen externally at all. Additionally, once the transition starts the unknowing of the sex will always say thats a drake. I have seen this first hand in pheasants, wood ducks, mandarin ducks, mergansers and ruddy ducks. All in captivity and a few hens may have started to show and passed. Always happened with very old birds. I am betting on the hen on this one and nobody can say otherwise as not until vent sexed.
Steve Sanford
Well-known member
Good morning, Luke~
From my experience - mostly banding winter birds - the green flecks in the head and the upper tail coverts are fairly common on what appear to be pure Black Duck adult drakes.
Luckily for you, it's just a "Duck" in the bag.
All the best,
SJS
From my experience - mostly banding winter birds - the green flecks in the head and the upper tail coverts are fairly common on what appear to be pure Black Duck adult drakes.
Luckily for you, it's just a "Duck" in the bag.
All the best,
SJS
Capt Rich Geminski
Well-known member
Taste like a mallard or black duck?
Derek Bendell
Active member
I thought I was on the refugeforums where old hen mallard is the answer for everything. Vent sexing is not my thing but if you could find the carcass and poke around in there it would be very helpful in this debate.(Also for future reference guys.)
Here's She is. Orange bill. This wasn't a captive duck but lived at one of my winter photo spots. Her bill never got greener, or yellow. Just sayin. I only knew her a few years so maybe the bill was still ripening.
I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but if its between a Mallard x Black mixed Drake in NJ, or a Old Hen Mallard that has completely turned into a drake with the exception of a few feathers, and a buffy cheek I think the first scenario is more likely especially since I've seen many more hybrids and variation than old hen mallards. Take it to the refugeforums and you'll get confirmation for sure. Haha.
Here's She is. Orange bill. This wasn't a captive duck but lived at one of my winter photo spots. Her bill never got greener, or yellow. Just sayin. I only knew her a few years so maybe the bill was still ripening.
I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night but if its between a Mallard x Black mixed Drake in NJ, or a Old Hen Mallard that has completely turned into a drake with the exception of a few feathers, and a buffy cheek I think the first scenario is more likely especially since I've seen many more hybrids and variation than old hen mallards. Take it to the refugeforums and you'll get confirmation for sure. Haha.
My belief is that Derek and Tim are barking up the correct tree(s). Tim's suggestion that an underwing shot would be useful is a good one. Driving my feelings on this are: 1) that the bird does not show any of the female features I was looking for and 2) the overall look of the bird is darker (suggesting black influence) than typical.
Dwight Harley
Well-known member
So, it's a mutt!
Other than "looks like a black/mallard hybrid", I have no thoughts on this bird's origin. But I want to thank Steve for inserting just the right amount of uncertainty into all our guesses with that "what appear to be". It's good to remember that observing plumage is not a genetic test--and that even with the DNA tested, there might be multiple interpretations of the same data.