using older shotguns
- Thread starter rick born
- Start date
Keith Dolbeck
New member
I often hunt waterfowl with my Fox Sterlingworths and my Fox A grades. I also shoot a Winchester Model 21 occasionally and have not had any problems.(Probably in access of 100 hunts) I use Kent Matrix loads as opposed to Bismith as I feel the shot used in the Kent Matrix is softer and easier on the barrels. Never tried to reload the matrix but it may be available. I really enjoy hunting with my vintage doubles and would not care about collecting them if I could not be in the duck blind with them.maybe someone reading this will know about reloading possibilities with Kent Matrix (Kent Impact is what is on the box)
Mike Trudel
Well-known member
Kieth, unfortunately Kent Matrix is unavailable for reloading. I have friends who pickup various Kent matrix shells at gun shows and remove the shot so it can be loaded in their own shells.
John Bourbon
Well-known member
I reload non-tox shells for my 104 year old Rem 1894 in 10 ga. So far I've tried Bismuth, Nice Shot and ITX. My Remington has damascas barrels and the original full chokes. I've not noticed damage from any of those types of shot. I've got a few thoughts on some of the comments made above.
While pressure is a valid concern, recoil from loads that are heavier that originally intended probably cause more problems in the long run. 100 year old wood, in a gun that has stood upright in a closet or gun cabinet or where ever, probably has had some measure of oil soak into the head of the stock, weakening it. That's where you get your first stock damage. Side lock guns and butt stocks that don't have tangs that slip inside the action of a boxlock will crack before those stocks that do have a tang that is inside the rear of the boxlock. My 80+ year old Iver Johnson Hercules has tangs and I expect it will be a viable shotgun for many years to come.
The series of article Sherman Bell did in the Double Gun Journal should be required reading for anybody contemplating using an old double for waterfowl. His reccomendations on loads, all pressure tested by him with a calibrated test gun, work quite nicely on waterfowl. I've been using them on late season whistlers here on Champlain for 2 seasons now. The best place to find the complete list is on the Parker Forum under the reloading section. Be advised though that the 2 best smokeless powders for use in these old guns, IMR 4756 and IMR 7625 went out of production last year. Reasonable alternatives (in pressure tested loads) would be Blue Dot and maybe 800X. Believe it or not, black powder, in heavy loads, give modern levels of velocity with moderate pressure levels. Yes, its a pain to clean, BUT, the results are pretty interesting. Use fiber wads if possible as the black powder has a tendency to leave plastic crud in the barrel from having melted the bottom of a plastic wad. You can still buy Federal once fired paper hulls from BPI and others. If you use plastic hulls (especially with smokeless powder) consider using new primed plastic hulls. Fiocchi and Cheddite hulls are straight interior walled hulls and have copious volume, which helps keep down pressures. Lastly, if you do use new hulls, roll crimp them. Most times, and with most loads, roll crimping gives pressure readings 500psi less on identical loads. If you are trying keep loads below 8000 psi, as I am, that's significant.
The DoubleGunshop.com website, http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php, is a plethora of info on loading and shooting these old guns. Anything written by Drew Hause or the guy who goes by the name Researcher, is worth reading. Lots of good info there, especially on American doubles.
Lots of people will tell you that these old guns are unsafe to shoot. Maybe yes, maybe no. Each gun should be considered on its own merits. Having a garden variety gunsmith examine it for structural soundness may not be the route to take in determining so. Find a smith with old gun experience. I've had several smiths tell me that no gun with damascas barrels are safe to shoot ever. And that's just not accurate.
John Bourbon
While pressure is a valid concern, recoil from loads that are heavier that originally intended probably cause more problems in the long run. 100 year old wood, in a gun that has stood upright in a closet or gun cabinet or where ever, probably has had some measure of oil soak into the head of the stock, weakening it. That's where you get your first stock damage. Side lock guns and butt stocks that don't have tangs that slip inside the action of a boxlock will crack before those stocks that do have a tang that is inside the rear of the boxlock. My 80+ year old Iver Johnson Hercules has tangs and I expect it will be a viable shotgun for many years to come.
The series of article Sherman Bell did in the Double Gun Journal should be required reading for anybody contemplating using an old double for waterfowl. His reccomendations on loads, all pressure tested by him with a calibrated test gun, work quite nicely on waterfowl. I've been using them on late season whistlers here on Champlain for 2 seasons now. The best place to find the complete list is on the Parker Forum under the reloading section. Be advised though that the 2 best smokeless powders for use in these old guns, IMR 4756 and IMR 7625 went out of production last year. Reasonable alternatives (in pressure tested loads) would be Blue Dot and maybe 800X. Believe it or not, black powder, in heavy loads, give modern levels of velocity with moderate pressure levels. Yes, its a pain to clean, BUT, the results are pretty interesting. Use fiber wads if possible as the black powder has a tendency to leave plastic crud in the barrel from having melted the bottom of a plastic wad. You can still buy Federal once fired paper hulls from BPI and others. If you use plastic hulls (especially with smokeless powder) consider using new primed plastic hulls. Fiocchi and Cheddite hulls are straight interior walled hulls and have copious volume, which helps keep down pressures. Lastly, if you do use new hulls, roll crimp them. Most times, and with most loads, roll crimping gives pressure readings 500psi less on identical loads. If you are trying keep loads below 8000 psi, as I am, that's significant.
The DoubleGunshop.com website, http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php, is a plethora of info on loading and shooting these old guns. Anything written by Drew Hause or the guy who goes by the name Researcher, is worth reading. Lots of good info there, especially on American doubles.
Lots of people will tell you that these old guns are unsafe to shoot. Maybe yes, maybe no. Each gun should be considered on its own merits. Having a garden variety gunsmith examine it for structural soundness may not be the route to take in determining so. Find a smith with old gun experience. I've had several smiths tell me that no gun with damascas barrels are safe to shoot ever. And that's just not accurate.
John Bourbon
John Bourbon
Well-known member
Rick, thanks for reminding me about all brass hulls. I ordered some from Track of the Wolf for 10 ga. They advertised them as being true to the size needed for Parker guns. Silly me, I thought that that meant they would fit all period 10 ga guns. Nope. The Track of the Wolf Parker shells are oversize to the chambers of other makers guns. They also come sized to fit large pistol primers, which while historically accurate, are just small enough to be hard to handle.
So, I turned to Rocky Mountain Cartridge and had them make me some SAAMI accurate 10 ga hulls, only with primer pockets sized to take a 209 primer. Now I can use various primers, depending on whether I need a hot one or a normal one. These things have tons of internal volume. If a person so desired, he could make quite heavy loads with black powder and still keep pressures reasonable.
Speaking of Black Powder, did you know you could order it on line and have UPS deliver it to your door? No signature required. I was amazed to see that.
Shooting these old guns is addicting....
John
So, I turned to Rocky Mountain Cartridge and had them make me some SAAMI accurate 10 ga hulls, only with primer pockets sized to take a 209 primer. Now I can use various primers, depending on whether I need a hot one or a normal one. These things have tons of internal volume. If a person so desired, he could make quite heavy loads with black powder and still keep pressures reasonable.
Speaking of Black Powder, did you know you could order it on line and have UPS deliver it to your door? No signature required. I was amazed to see that.
Shooting these old guns is addicting....
John
Rick L
Well-known member
Parker had two different chamber sizes for tens in the day of brass hulls designated A & B, the dimensions should be in the Parker story- if you are interested I can look.
they also chambered a few as 11's.
I lucked into a supply of original 2 7/8 Winchester brass hulls in excellent condition that fit my Parker, (unfortunately too long for the British 2 5/8th chambers)
so I have stuck with the large pistol primers. I have one original Parker hull which fits.
I also just found some new unfired 10 ga paper hulls - they should give a few loads before they burn through (plastic hulls and BP are not best of friends)
The Maine Powder house has always offered good prices on BP shipped to you
they also chambered a few as 11's.
I lucked into a supply of original 2 7/8 Winchester brass hulls in excellent condition that fit my Parker, (unfortunately too long for the British 2 5/8th chambers)
so I have stuck with the large pistol primers. I have one original Parker hull which fits.
I also just found some new unfired 10 ga paper hulls - they should give a few loads before they burn through (plastic hulls and BP are not best of friends)
The Maine Powder house has always offered good prices on BP shipped to you
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John Bourbon
Well-known member
I got my black powder from Maine Powder House.
It's funny, I never spent much time reading up on Parker's as I always assumed they would be out of my price range. However I've seen some Trojan's that would be right at home in my gun safe. When you say you found some new unfired 10 ga paper hulls, are they new manufacture, or nice old hulls?
John
It's funny, I never spent much time reading up on Parker's as I always assumed they would be out of my price range. However I've seen some Trojan's that would be right at home in my gun safe. When you say you found some new unfired 10 ga paper hulls, are they new manufacture, or nice old hulls?
John
Capt Rich Geminski
Well-known member
Gun show on Long Island March 14-15, usually a few hammer guns there. Also see brass cases, mostly 12ga there.
Tom Roberts
Well-known member
Do you have a link or email address for the Buck Run E-shot stuff. If it's cheaper than bismuth and ITX then I'm interested to know more about it.
Phil Nowack
Well-known member
I bet the bolt wasn't "rotated" into firing position.... most likely due to not letting it slam shut...
Rick Pierce
Well-known member
I spent the bucks to get E-shot, because it was cheaper than ITX, NICE, etc.
I want to feed it through a Browning Superposed and a Fox HE, along with an old Elsie. Low pressure, soft loads.
Friend loaded some samples up based on the load recipes, and we never could get a load that wouldn't fracture the shot. I called but kept getting the same answer to lower the velocity, put in buffer, etc. I don't know if we got a bad batch, but we never found a load that wouldn't shatter pellets out of the barrel.
I've bought ITX to load for the guns and have been researching some softer loads...have the reloading manual from Ballistic. It's a little more, but if I can actually shoot it, it's worth it.
I want to feed it through a Browning Superposed and a Fox HE, along with an old Elsie. Low pressure, soft loads.
Friend loaded some samples up based on the load recipes, and we never could get a load that wouldn't fracture the shot. I called but kept getting the same answer to lower the velocity, put in buffer, etc. I don't know if we got a bad batch, but we never found a load that wouldn't shatter pellets out of the barrel.
I've bought ITX to load for the guns and have been researching some softer loads...have the reloading manual from Ballistic. It's a little more, but if I can actually shoot it, it's worth it.
Mike Trudel
Well-known member
Interesting Rick, I talked with Tom Armrest (Ballistic Research), and he tested e-shot for them aprox. 3yrs ago, and did not have fracturing in his testing. Makes one wonder if they changed their recipe.
Allen Peterson
Member
I have been shooting older shotguns for years but in the last few years I started using them for waterfowling. I started loading ITX in loads for short 10s
and for my 3/12 chambered 10. the low pressure loads really smack em down as well as lead ever did. It is expensive to buy but a lot more fun than using my SX3. I did find that loading slightly less shot than a lead load really improved the pattern performance. an example for a big Ithaca mag ten double that could handle a plus 2 oz load a 13/8 load of #2 ITX folded this swan at +30 yards like a dove.
and for my 3/12 chambered 10. the low pressure loads really smack em down as well as lead ever did. It is expensive to buy but a lot more fun than using my SX3. I did find that loading slightly less shot than a lead load really improved the pattern performance. an example for a big Ithaca mag ten double that could handle a plus 2 oz load a 13/8 load of #2 ITX folded this swan at +30 yards like a dove.
