We ARE IN FOR A RUDE AWAKENING!!!! SHORTER DUCK SEAON!!

John, thanks for posting your observations and thoughts. Reading this, I was thinking the same thing, but it would only be second hand hearsay (though with less capital letters)


.......at least not IMO......
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Steve, you post is both informative and entertaining, thank you for being you....

Best
Chuck
 
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Just paddin my post count Chuck......




Steve
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When are you having that on-line garage sale? I think you've met the minimum post count to put an ad in the classifieds
 
Well, I was trying to figure out how to say what I know about sea duck biology, harvest, etc..., but Steve beat me to it.
I agree 100% with what he wrote.

And sorry, I know a lot of people have a lot of money invested in sea duck hunting & guiding. Guys said the same stuff about layout huting when the scaup limit was cut.

BUT in the end, the resource, the ducks, come first.

Like I noted in my first post, I find it hard to believe that FWS hadn't already taken these steps to curtail harvest.
 
If Eiders were Mallards you "might be right" Captain Nee.....and I only single you out because you are the one that seems to be most worried about the human side.......thing is the Sea Duck Tribe ARE NOT Mallards....they don't nest "everywhere there is a puddle" and they don't nest in their first year....they don't mature until their third year and they don't typically have as large a clutch size as "Mallards"........predation, including human, therefore has a much greater impact on the population and given the dynamics of their populations once you pass a threshold it is much more difficult to recover....


A couple of bad years on the nesting grounds with Mallards and Teal and you need to cut back on the season length.....a couple of wet springs and you're back in business.......doesn't work that way with Sea Ducks......put several poor nesting years in a row with the attendant poor recruitment of juveniles and then continue with long season lengths and large limits and all of the sudden you're really hammering your breeders.......you don't know him I don't think cause your name is new to me but I once asked Clint Jeske, (who was a very well know and highly respected Waterfowl Biologist but who sadly is no longer with us), about the decline of the Scoter populations in Washington, (we experienced the same thing in Washington that you are seeing on the East Coast with an enormous decline in wintering Scoter populations), and his response to me was that he felt that within the Sea Duck tribe that human harvest could rapidly become "additive" to the population decrease......which simply means that "we are shooting too many and that everyone we shoot is one that won't breed"......far different than the "compensatory" harvest when looking at ducks like Mallards.....


I have no doubt that there are things in play that aren't "human related".....I also have NO DOUBT that we are part of the problem.....could something be impacting the food base?....of course but if that's the case then continuing to "add to the loss" of the population base by continuing long seasons and high limits is "screwing the resource".....you might see lowering the limit or reducing season length as "getting screwed" personally but allowing 107 day seasons to continue in the face of the evidence that the populations are declining isn't a particularly intelligent response.......


I feel your pain....I was never a Guide but Sea Duck Hunting was "my thing" for many years in the Pacific NorthWest....did the "bought the equipment thing" and over the years hosted over 50 people from this website on hunts.....most of the people on this site that have killed Harlequins killed them out of my boat and the same can be said of "non East Coasters" for the Scoters and Barrow's Goldeneyes......looking back I accept some of the blame for the decline in Scoter populations in at least some areas in Washington.....Mallards numbers were down for several years and it was my posting on the internet, along with others, both Guides and individuals like myself, who popularized Scoter hunting there.....hunter numbers swelled, harvest burgeoned, and lo and behold populations declined to the point where eventually the limits were reduced to (2) Scoters......Food remained the same, (Scoters like Eiders are mussel eaters and the coves that once held thousands of wintering Scoters remain prime Mussel producers for the market and recreational harvesters), yet there are still those disgruntled hunters that loudly proclaim its a food thing.....or blame Eagles.....or Seals.....


Its the nature of the beast not to accept the blame when things go South, and while I'm not saying that the entire decline should be laid upon the once, and apparantely ongoing, groaning tailgates of the avid Sea Duckers I do think we have to look at the Sea Duck Tribe as a "different duck" than we do Mallards and assign, and accept, a different management strategy to ensure that we have them in the future.......hurts when you love them over the decoys so deeply, or when you make part of your living from them, but that doesn't change the facts........


As the once near famous Pogo once said......"we have seen the enemy...and he is us"......we can't ignore our impact on this declining species as "inconsequential" nor can we look at decreases as "getting screwed"........at least not IMO......






Steve
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I enjoyed your thoughts Steve. As much as I've always wanted to try a sea duck hunt it's far beyond my means or travel limits. Now when you bring up Mallards that's closer to home. Sea ducks are not the only waterfowl I believe are falling below acceptable numbers. Here in the Midwest the hunter numbers are climbing unlike other areas of the country. No reason to get into the why but "Hunt TV" has brought many into the fold. We are seeing quite a decrease in duck numbers here in the Mississippi and Central flyways from yesteryear and my belief is much of this is not only due to losing nesting habitat in North America and Canada but because of lack of waterfowl management in other parts of the world. When we talk about wack'em and stack'em. How many photos do you see from guides in places like Mexico and Argentina with piles of not only ducks but doves as well. That's another migratory bird that we are seeing fewer and fewer here in the Midwest. Now I don't know much about hunting in these places but I have read that limits of 15 ducks a day and 40 doves a day are the norm in Mexico. I know I get an email every year from some place in Argentina that will show a pile of doves that has to be 10' in dia. and 6' high. How damn many doves does one need? That pile is probably more doves than I've shot in a lifetime. Even if I shot a limit every day I hunted dove it would be less than 1500 birds. That's 16 birds a day for 3 days over 38 years. All I hunt is opening weekend after that the birds have moved on. Seems to me there should be an alliance or consortium of some sort that other countries should be held to as well. It's been said once they are gone there ain't no more! Of course I'm not a biologist and maybe there are rules I'm not finding in a google search but this is my belief.
 
Brad

Any concerns with harvest of sea ducks on the great lakes as well?

I know fall aerial off shore surveys of Lake MI stopped this year as well.
 
IF we're losing Mallards in the population and they aren't just re-distributing themselves then its a problem for sure....BUT it doesn't result from the same issues that are affecting the Sea Duck Tribe.....I'll go back to my conversation with Clint again and say that he was in agreement that "in almost all cases harvest of puddle ducks was compensatory and that if it wasn't then the "additive" was short term"....for that to be true then habitat and nesting success is principal in the equation.....and unless you believe the Fed's are "hiding something", or cooking the books when it comes to breeding populations and fall numbers, which I don't, then we're o.k. there.....maybe not your areas specifically but Country wide.....


Mexico is a whole another issue...and Argentina another one altogether......the need to shoot "mass quantities" is the primary reason for going....amount of return for the money and I think "guilt" is another part....plus ease of travel and hassle once you're there......


Mexico has limits established by the Gov't.....in my experience, both personal and word of mouth they are rarely observed.....and its only the size the "shooters" wallet and his guilt that governs his bag size......shooting the same ducks you might shoot at home does affect some peoples desire....some more than others......add to that the fact that Mexico is a shit hole to travel to unless you do it with a well established outfitter and don't drive, don't wish to use your own gun, and don't want to keep feeding the "bribe machine" to get where you want to go......Mexico's "harvest" though is small, even multiply what they "say" they take by a factor of several, and its not likely that it impacts numbers in the U.S......Mallards are rare there so you can't look to Mexico for an answer...Bluewings and Pintails and Redheads and Shovelors use Mexico heavily and they aren't showing declines....(agan unless you don't believe the Fed's numbers)......


Argentina is totally different.....their ducks aren't our ducks so there's no need to have any guilt in whacking and stacking them....I do believe that the individual Estancia's, or perhaps Provinces, have learned from the bitter lesson of having destroyed the Goose and Pigeon hunting there with their, "the supply is inexhaustible so shoot all you want" attitudes, and have limits in place that are mostly adhered to......after all does one need to shoot more than 40 ducks when he has unlimited Dove shooting available in the afternoon?....The natives don't hunt so while the take seems excessive individually as long as the nesting habitat isn't impacted then its all about what you want to do with your money and are you o.k, shooting ducks over dump trucks full of bait that will then be buried in a hole in the afternoon......their doves are the same.....not the same species and considered a "pest" by the farmers who in the past have poisioned them but no longer do because it was indiscriminate and heavily impacted all of the seed eaters.......go there and you'll be urged to shoot the Parakeets and the Hawks and many other species because they are, or so it would seem to me, where America was between the World Wars and up til the 60's.....kill everything you can that isn't what you want and you'll be good.....


I guess in the end all three are related but I don't think Mexico hurts us and I'm sure that that's the case in S.America, (unless some hanyock feels the need to shoot shorebirds and has the money to get away with it)......


Steve
 
Sorry but overall, it looks like we are at least part of the problem (additive mortality in a population with low fecundity). And in the end, harvest is the main thing we can control. Unless someone wants to invest a hell of a lot of money to "fix" the other factors that may be causing the drop. So who's up for raising taxes for that?
And Yes it's sad that guys who have a lot of time, money and even livelihood invested in this will get hurt. But once again, the duck come first and the trend is clearly downhill. If we wait until they reach a tipping point and flat out crash Then it will be a closed season vs reduced season.
 
Let me post the actual seadduck regulations for the Atlantic Flyway for the 2016-17 season.

Scoters, Eiders, and Long-tailed Ducks

Special Sea Duck Seasons:

Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Rhode Island, South Carolina, and Virginia may select a Special Sea Duck Season in designated Special Sea Duck Areas. If a Special Sea Duck Season is selected, scoters, eiders, and long-tailed ducks may be taken in the designated Special Sea Duck Area(s) only during the Special Sea Duck Season dates; scoter, eiders, and long-tailed ducks may be taken outside of Special Sea Duck Area(s) during the regular duck season, in accordance with the frameworks for ducks, mergansers, and coots specified above.



Outside Dates: Between September 15 and January 31.



Special Sea Duck Seasons and Daily Bag Limits: 60 consecutive hunting days, or 60 days that are concurrent with the regular duck season, with a daily bag limit of 5, singly or in the aggregate, of the listed sea duck species, including no more than 4 scoters, 4 eiders, and 4 long-tailed ducks. Within the special sea duck areas, during the regular duck season in the Atlantic Flyway, States may choose to allow the above sea duck limits in addition to the limits applying to other ducks during the regular season. In all other areas, sea ducks may be taken only during the regular open season for ducks and are part of the regular duck season daily bag (not to exceed 4 scoters, 4 eiders, and 4 long-tailed ducks) and possession limits.



Special Sea Duck Areas: In all coastal waters and all waters of rivers and streams seaward from the first upstream bridge in Maine, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and New York; in New Jersey, all coastal waters seaward from the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (COLREGS) Demarcation Lines shown on National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) Nautical Charts and further described in 33 CFR 80.165, 80.501, 80.502, and 80.503; in any waters of the Atlantic Ocean and in any tidal waters of any bay that are separated by at least 1 mile of open water from any shore, island, and emergent vegetation in South Carolina and Georgia; and in any waters of the Atlantic Ocean and in any tidal waters of any bay that are separated by at least 800 yards of open water from any shore, island, and emergent vegetation in Delaware, Maryland, North Carolina, and Virginia; and provided that any such areas have been described, delineated, and designated as special sea duck hunting areas under the hunting regulations adopted by the respective States.

And the rationale used by the FWS.

Service Response: We agree with the Atlantic Flyway Council’s recommendations to reduce the harvest of sea ducks. The recent Sea Duck Harvest Potential Assessment indicates that the likelihood of overharvest of scoter, Atlantic common eider, and long-tailed duck populations ranges from 48 percent (Eastern black scoter) to 95 percent (long-tailed duck) under current regulations. Further, sea ducks have a low reproduction rate, but a high longevity of adults. As such, hunting mortality is almost entirely additive. One of the incentives for sea duck hunting has been the opportunity for hunters to achieve a high daily bag limit (7 ducks). The Atlantic Flyway Council believes, and we concur, that reducing the general daily bag limit to 5 will reduce that incentive, but still allow special sea duck hunting opportunity. The recommended changes in season length, daily bag limits, and area restrictions are expected to achieve a harvest reduction of approximately 25 percent.



Regarding the commenters’ request that we continue to allow hunters to take other ducks in addition to sea ducks in the special sea duck area when both seasons are open, we concur. We examined records of individual duck hunts from 2005–2014 that hunters reported to the annual Federal harvest surveys. Those records indicate that less than 1 percent of the reported daily duck bags that included sea ducks would have been illegal under our previous proposed change. Thus, reverting back to the status quo on this specific aspect from our previously identified proposed change would likely have minimal impact on the harvest of either sea ducks or other duck species while also removing any perceptions of additional regulatory complexity or unnecessary loss of hunting opportunities.



A copy of the sea duck harvest potential assessment is available at the address indicated under FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT, or from our website at http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/NewsPublicationsReports.html.

If you want me to decode the government speak, it says that the FWS and States in the Atlantic Flyway all believe that sea ducks are having a tough time. While the root cause may not be hunting. Most likely it is predation on hens, ducklings and eggs by gulls, eagles, and introduced mammalian predators on nesting islands and surrounding waters. However, while they are looking into those factors, hunting causes additional mortality and is contributing to the problem. Therefore, they felt that reducing the special opportunity on sea ducks was appropriate. These species have a low potential for growth (long lives, small clutches or eggs; i.e., they are not mallards or teal). Maximizing adult survival and maintaining annual recruitment are key to maintaining stable populations.
 
Thanks for the interpretation Brad, am I wrong or does that seem like a pretty liberal limit still? It not like Brant where we were cut too one bird 30 day.( fine with that if That's what's needed)
 
Thanks for the interpretation Brad, am I wrong or does that seem like a pretty liberal limit still? It not like Brant where we were cut too one bird 30 day.( fine with that if That's what's needed)
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Jode I agree. This shorter Sea duck season has been years in the making if you didn't know that then you haven't been listening that closely. However there are some loopholes and NJ IMO has done a good job redefining the sea duck zones maximizing opportunities for Sea ducks that will give opportunities beyond the 60 days.

Brant season is being extended back to a 60 day 1 bird limit season after a good winter count.
 
Great and interesting views on this thread. I can see both sides...those that profit from the sea duck hunting and those that want to protect the birds....sometimes they are one in the same. There are also those that don't or won't ever have a chance at these birds since they don't or won't ever be near their habitat.
I remember when they shut down the Canada goose season. They didn't limit it......they closed it.....for several years. It was frustrating since Maryland was the only state along the east coast (that I was aware of) that did this. I could drive 2 hours east, west or north and shoot geese. I thought this was unfair and stupid since everyone around me was dropping geese, but my current local forbid it. After the first season...I really don't recall seeing much of a change in goose numbers as they migrated. It wasn't that I was outside counting them and taking notes, but the skeins seemed normal. The second year was different. It did seem like there were more geese and I was seeing them in spots I had not noticed them in before. The third year was amazing. They were everywhere! They dropped into my duck decoys, they circled my blind. It was fun just to practice calling at them. With so many juveniles, you could really look like an incredible goose caller since they didn't know any better and they weren't getting shot at.
I'm getting long in the tooth and I have transitioned through all of the normal phases a hunter transitions through. I am past the sound of the gun going off and the smell of burnt powder, the harvesting of a bird phase, getting my limit phase, the trophy phase.......I just enjoy being out there and watching the birds do what they do. Not being able to hunt last year because of a surgery was miserable.....I cant imagine what it would have been like if I was in my 20's. But living through a moratorium showed me that even when the surrounding states are still snapping "tailgate" bragging photos, the birds can rebound. The harvest of ONE state is a HUGE boost to the birds.
I am preparing to get back in the field this fall and giving a try at Sea Duck hunting for the first time. The difference is I get to grow into it. I don't care if I do it wrong or I'm not real efficient at getting the long lines out or in. I don't care if I don't get any birds this year. I just want to be out there to see the birds do what they do.


Dave
 
Thanks for the interpretation Brad, am I wrong or does that seem like a pretty liberal limit still? It not like Brant where we were cut too one bird 30 day.( fine with that if That's what's needed)
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Jode, not to sound like a philosophy major, but how you define liberal is in the eye of the beholder. Some might feel that any harvest is too liberal. The concern was getting the harvest down to a sustainable level while efforts are made to get to the root causes.
 
Jode, not to sound like a philosophy major, but how you define liberal is in the eye of the beholder. Some might feel that any harvest is too liberal. The concern was getting the harvest down to a sustainable level while efforts are made to get to the root causes.
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My sense of this is highly colored by the fact that most people I know who hunt eiders complain about eating them, but love eider hunting because of the spectacular places you do it, the unique qualities of the hunt, and the tradition--all of which are identical with a 2 or 3 bird limit as they are with a 5 or 7 bird limit. Like many of the other posters here, I am always going to prefer the regulators take the most conservative approach possible to season and bag limits.

All of which is prelude to this: "Hunting opportunity" is not reduced by lower bag limits. The only thing limited is HARVEST opportunity, and for a bird that very few of us praise as table fare, and that experts say is currently over-harvested, I'd prefer to see hunting opportunity maximized with by keeping a season open, but strict harvest limits.

Brad, many thanks for all of the information. Not many people in your position would post to an internet forum, and we all appreciate that you do.
 
Obviously bag limits must be different on the west coast??? On the east coast
It's 4 of one species on sea ducks (7 total)and when it comes to Eiders only 1hen, this has been the
Mainstay for years,I don't know what goes on in Maine but blaming it on Guides is not the problem, I've been hunting waterfowl in Mass for over 45
Years and I've come to see it as it is now that we have a yearly Hatch in Boston Harbor for the last 20 years when we had 0 before!! How do you explain that? I call that expansion and habitat preservation. How do you
Explain THOUSANDS of birds DYING YEARLY off CAPE COD?? The BIOLIGIST
Say some type of VIRUS, but casting blame on Guides is not the Answer,I haven't guided for years but have denied trips because of the lack of birds ,so
As you can see I'm not in it for the money,if I have taken anyone out it has been WOUNDED WARRIORS and THAT'S FREE! Your 3000 miles away,
I never sit in the shade and talk about the hot sun till I have my facts.
I'm expressing my concern about the birds not MONEY!
 
Irrespective of guide versus non guide side of fence you are on, Brad's earlier post says it all. Mortality from hunting is additive to the overall problem. Enough said as far as hunters are concerned. The biologists and council will need to assess and study the other issues but we only need to look at the trends of other sea duck species on the West Coast to know that failure to act can have catastrophic consequences. Do you think you will ever see a season on Stellars or Spectacled Eiders? I recall reading articles in Wildfowl magazine about hunting these two species and season has now been closed for decades.
 
Capt'n....each and everyone of your posts, up till the last one, contained at least one reference to how "hunters" were getting screwed in some fashion by the reduction.....not one mention that I saw that indicate that there was concern for the ducks......If I mis-interpreted those statements and didn't realize that they meant you were concerned more about the resource than you were about the hunters then you have my apology Sir......


Please re-read what I posted.....I never blamed the Guides.....on either Coast....and I never blamed the hunters......I stated that there were other things going on but that my best information made it appear that those things had reached a point where hunter harvest was "additive" and that when that happens, when we know there's a problem but really don't know what that is and therefore can't fix it then the only option is to fix what we can.....and as Brad verified the only thing we can control is hunter harvest and the only way to do that is to reduce the length of the season and the limits......THATS concern for the resource.....We're screwed....and all other statements that indicate the "hunter" is the loser in this IS NOT.....at least the way it reads to me.....


My opinion is that Jeff Reardon said it best when he stated that a reduction in time and numbers isn't as much a loss of hunting opportunity rather its a loss of harvest opportunity.......I agree with Jeff 100% on that statement.......to not take these steps could easily lead to a total loss of the opportunity because hard as it might be to swallow if there are 50 things wrong and you can only control one of them if you don't do, (because you're worried about screwing the boat builders and the guys that have money invested and the Guides-all your statements), then you care much more for the hunter than the resource....please note that when I use "you" I am not speaking about "you" specificially......it is a "collective you" and is not directed at you personally except for the fact that you are the only one that "appeared" to see the reductions as a personal affront.......again if I mis-interpreted what you wrote then I apologize....


Kudo's to you on the Wounded Warrior hunts......GREAT JOB......




Steve
 
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Brad

Any concerns with harvest of sea ducks on the great lakes as well?

I know fall aerial off shore surveys of Lake MI stopped this year as well.


Andrew, since your post was ignored, I'll respond to your concerns. The vast majority of birds identified over-wintering on the open portions of the Great Lakes are goldeneye, mergansers, oldsquaw (longtail ducks, now in the PC World's vocabulary), and scoters.
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