What's next in this cow to the masses world?

R

Ron Schuna

Well-known member
I just read on www.twincities.com that Delta Air Lines had a major change of heart about shipping hunting trophies, announcing Monday afternoon that it would no longer accept lion, leopard, elephant, rhinoceros and buffalo trophies. What's next....Cowing to the masses in the name of PR.
 
The real trouble is

It is not cowing to the masses. It's caving to a vocal fringe
 
I'll play contrarian. Anybody who isn't outraged by what Walter Palmer did isn't paying attention.

And anyone who doesn't think it's questionable whether trophy hunting for a species whose populations has declined more than 40% in the last 20 years needs to do some research. See the IUCN listing for lions here: http://www.iucnredlist.org/details/15951/0

Note that among the causes of the recent decline is "poorly regulated sport hunting".

Part of being a "sportsman" is knowing when it's time to stop hunting.

Kudos to SCI for suspending Walter Palmer's membership, but shame on them for not doing so back when he pled guilty to poaching a black bear and then lying about it.

The anti-hunting wingnuts have always been out there, always will be, and nobody should be surprised they are milking this for all it's worth. It's our job not to help them by defending the likes of Walter Palmer.

For an insightful view of hunting and its ethics, I highly recommend Ted Kerasote's "Bloodties". Reading it certainly changed my view of trophy hunting, especially for rare animals.

As for transporting hunting trophies from globally-rare species? If I ran an airline, it's a business I wouldn't want to be in.
 
Jeff, I and most likely most of us will agree, not a sportsman and not a hunter -

but- back to the original posting - delta is not banning him, they are banning everyone
 
They're not banning everyone--just folks who want to ship trophies from five African species. I don't know enough about all of them to know if they have a list I'd agree with. Surely there are some rare species from other continents that ought to be considered, too. But lions, rhinos and elephants are OK by me. I sure wouldn't hunt any of those given their conservation status. Not sure about buffalo and leopard.
 
I admit I don't know much about big game hunting in Africa. I'm trying to keep an open mind about what may have happened, until credible sources are interviewed. In the past, I have been told by others that paying large amounts of money to harvest an older male lion does not reduce the population, but it does help pay for more conservation efforts. Again more than I know, but waiting for the facts is not what seems to be happening.

Miller
 
Remeber too Zimbawe is the poster child for failed states everywhere. Law is virually non existent and corruption rampant. I am specualting the the dentist paid dearly to get his "permits" and only because it was a famous lion did the government become "concerned". I am thinking the dentists extradition and charges will be settled with "restitution" to the proper authorities.
 
I'm not into the African Safari hunting myself. My concern is just as in gun grabbing...this is the start...now the masses will follow up this one with banning North American big game, then firearms, then dogs because they are in a kennel for 6 hours etc...I don't like that the dentist paid serious $$$$$ to shoot Cecil, however this step by Delta is the first of many that will domino into other hunting.
 
PETA can now say "no thank you" to the super models who pose nude in their ad's and just put this guys face and Cecils "brutally beheaded" carcass in their place....


We've long talked about the difference in "its legal so do it" and "should you do it just because its legal" on this site.....people on both sides of that line.....


I was willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, (I did the same thing with Armstrong and was wrong there--HOPE springs eternal eh?), hoping that his only mistake was wanting a big Lion so badly that he was willing to shoot a line lured out of a Refuge and didn't know "WHO" the lion was or that his PF's were "less than trustworthy".......finding out that he has the Bear poaching incident in his background makes me believe he knew exactly what was going EVERY STEP OF THE WAY and that what he did wasn't just "I did it because it was legal".....If some jerk like this had baited a trophy sheep out of a PArk and killed it wed all be incensed.....this guy is no different and all I am sorry about now is that we, as legitimate hunters, all get painted with this guys brush.....


Steve
 
Jeff's points are well articulated,Delta is banning shipment of "trophies" of species they deem under threat of exterpation. The three Aftrican big game hunters I know personally are all extreme egoists...$50,000 for the chance to shoot an African lion!

Steve, as far as the whole issue of "Lance Armstrong is a horrible doper"; a Velo News staffer recently researched the "medicinal histories" of the top three finishers of the Tour de France, as well as all race Stage winners for the seven year interval when Lance won the overall event. Of the 96 cyclists listed, six had not been caught doping during the seven year interval, including Lance Armstrong. Two later admitted drug use while riding. Many of his current detractors in cycling cite the way he denied his involvement in doping as well as character defamation attempts directed at those who witnessed his drug use, not whether he used performance enhancing drugs, as the overriding issue driving their derision. Remember, when Miguel Indurain finished his five win cycle at the top of the podium at the Tour de France and retired, Armstrong hired his personal physician-enough said! Past Tour winners, "Big Mig", Jan Ullrich, Bjarne Ris were all invited "dignitaries" at this year's event-all "dopers". Bernard Hinault also served a suspension for illegal substance use while competing during his career...another five time winner of Le Tour!

Armstrong did ride "clean" the year of his comeback, to a third place finish. That year's winner,Alberto Contador was caught the following year using a controlled substance(bronchial dialator) and suspended, passing his Le Tour title over to Andy Schleck, making Lance the second place finisher at an advanced age for a Le Tour cyclist. Get on a bike and ride a hundred miles plus a day for 21 days; it is a brutal race to simply do well in, let alone win, as Teejay Vanderen sadly discovered again this year.

I know, I know, I am a graduate of the "Holden Caufield School of Digression"!
 
Last edited:
..this is the start...now the masses will follow up this one with banning North American big game, then firearms, then dogs because they are in a kennel for 6 hours etc...
Click to expand...

Roy, the problem with that line of reasoning is that it applies to any conservation measure. I'm sure that argument was rolled out when the idea of bag limits and closed seasons was first rolled out, when the Migratory Bird Treaty Act was proposed, when the Endangered Species Act was passed, etc.

My education as a hunter and angler started with being taught that sometimes it's acceptable to kill fish and game, and sometimes it's not. Knowing the difference is what makes us sportsmen and conservationists.

These questions are not easy. I've actually seem some pretty good reporting since the Cecil incident on the role of hunting in African mammal conservation. It seems experts are deeply divided on whether lion hunting contributes to conservation, and that uncertainty is enough for me to decide we shouldn't do it.

Pretty academic exercise for me. Not likely I'll have the $50K to spend on a hunt, and if I did, there's a lot of things I'd do here in North America before I paid a professional hunter to line me up on a lion.
 
All hunters are lumped together by non hunters. Therefore it is of utmost importance that we all - Do The Right Thing All The Time. Or suffer the consequences...

I have no desire to kill a animal I will not eat, and just for it's horns, hide, head, or to mount. It makes no sense to me. Years ago when I had ducks mounted it did bother me as it did make me a trophy hunter. So I am in the group of "Let he without sin cast the first stone".

Without a monetary value put on many animals, they and their habitat would soon vanish. Hunters realize that, non hunters do not.

The days of the Blue Collar hunter are in swift decline. Antler restrictions, leases, buy land or have no place to hunt, posted ground, etc. The cost continues to increase. The days of buying licenses, stamps, shells, gassing up the vehicle and going are slipping away.

This latest issue will affect us all in the hunting community. We have weathered such storms before, and God willing will continue to do so. That we are discussing and addressing it is healthy.
 
RL..while this post isn't specifically about Armstrong I'll make a short retort to what seems to be your...."everybody else did it so why not me"...defense....


Regardless of "who else" was doing it Armstrong vehemently maintained he hadn't, didn't, and never would.....had that been true it would have made his accomplishment even more outstanding proving hard work and determination can beat chemical enhancement and that is why I wanted so badly to believe that he wasn't lying.....when he finally admitted it and we also learned he had threatened Team Members if they told and then pulled the "I had to to be able to compete with the ones that did and they all were doing it so why not me"...he became "just another athlete" in my mind....one that would break the rules to win and then lie about it even when he had to know that ultimately he would be caught....


This actually seques nicely into this Lion incident IMO....the "hunter" claimed he thought everything was on the "up and up"...then we find out that in the past he didn't hesitate to break the law and then lie about it to procure his "trophy"....now he wants us to believe that "this one was on the up and up"....in the end, at least to me, it as much about the refusal to just say "you caught me" rather than to continue to lie incessantly even while knowing that eventually the truth is going to out.......


Steve
 
elephant numbers in specific regions are at a level that is harmful to the habitat they destroy trees and scrub to the detriment of other species. If the local governments are not willing to relocate these elephants to areas where the numbers are low, what other management tool should be used.

Lions and Rhino, and I would add leopards should be off limits until numbers rebound and poachers are in check.

I do not understand the ban on buffalo I have not heard anything about their numbers being down. And of the animals on the list this is the only one I personally would consider hunting, but since I'm have two kids in college i'll stick to penn/jersey ducks.
 
Steve, Marion Jones, Jose Conseco,Alex Rodriquez, Big Poppy,Ben Johnson,Tony Mandarich, Brian Bosworth, Lyle Alzado, et al ad infinitum have ALL have offered the same response when accused of "doping". Illicit substance use is quite common in elite sport circles. Armstrong was a product of the peleton.

If you read my response, I too am in the same camp with you, I don't forgive him for the damage he did to people like Frankie Andeu, his former team masseuse, and countless others who had the personal courage to state the Truth. Read George Hincapie's book, when you finish you will walk away shaking your head-everyone has a choice of which course to follow, George. I think that's the overall point of this thread...hunter ethics versus ego-driven "consumption".
 
Never understood people who overshoot the limit on ducks, then complain there are no ducks?
It sad that our generation has made the environment worse off then ever. Anyone feel the Shark attacks are because large areas of the oceans are dead hence the Sharks need to feed elsewhere?
Greed is more rampant then ever.
Ken
 
I can probably weigh in on this discussion as I have two qualifications... I have been to Hwange National Park and contributed my conservation dollars and I have met with and spoken with Lance Armstrong in his former capacity as head of the Livestrong Foundation.

In my opinion any Lance Armstrong conversation should be as complex as the issues, the sport dynamics and the individual. The cycling sport is rife with corruption and cheating... absolutely proven over the years. The winners are almost always cheaters... absolutely proven over the years. The individual succumbed to the temptation and desire to be the best at his sport and felt compelled to cheat and lie about it... absolutely proven. So he lied and cheated in a sport that is corrupt and full of liars and cheats. The only surprise in all of this is that the tour actually survives year after year of scandal because the fans love it.

On the other side of the equation Lance has done something that none of the other cheats and liars did as far as I am aware. He created a foundation that has contributed hundreds of millions of dollars to the fight against cancer, supporting both research and patients. He used his fame and fortune to benefit the population at large. That buys a lot of consideration in my mind. Complex to say the least.

As for big game trophy hunting in Africa I just don't get it. As stated... just because you can doesn't mean you should. Others have stated the numbers point to a decline and while it is somewhat true that certain populations of elephants are too large, in general the concern is great.

While tenting my way around Zimbabwe, Namibia, Botswana and Zambia, I have had the opportunity to photograph lions, leopards, rhinoceros, elephants, buffalo and many other African animals in their natural environment. I have woken in my tent at midnight while listening to a pod of hippos going by just below the river bank, heard a pride of lions take a buffalo at night, seen crocodiles dozing one minute and leap into a frenzied hunt in another. I have angered a bull elephant at least twice, dodged ostriches on the road, spotted every manner of antelope in the bushes, come face to face with an angry sable antelope and found myself hiking in the middle of a herd of wildebeest. While setting up my tent one evening I watched a leopard cross about 60 yards away and then perch on a rocky ledge about 200 yards away and wait for dark. Not long afterwards the guinea fowl in the field nearby erupted and then settled down. In the morning there were feathers everywhere.

I could go on and on but my point is simple, I wouldn't trade one minute of these experiences or one click of the shutter for the opportunity to squeeze the trigger and drop one of these animals. (Nor would I hunt them with a bow.) If we want future generations to have the opportunities I have had we need to protect the habitat and the animals.














 
My problem with all the news is Guilty. One sided news reporting with knee jerk responses from politicians and the privileged people. Wait till we have at least some of the facts. As far as the airlines, a few make the decisions for all. You can fly other air carriers.
As far as the ban guns people, check and see if Oprah, Rosie, the rich and famous and the politicians have security that are armed?
Would love to buy more Made In The USA products.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top