What's next in this cow to the masses world?

Paul= I'm trying to keep an open mid about this situation until more credible facts are published.

I met a big game hunter several years ago that had harvested a large bull Elephant. He told me that although they were endangered, he obtained a license to harvest this bull because the grazing grounds were diminishing, and could not support the number of elephants in that area. His bull elephant was an old bull that was solitary, no longer part of the "breeding" bulls.

Is it possible that this hunter in question killed an older male Lion, that would not negatively reduce the population of Lions in that specific area?

Big Game hunting is definitely not my cup of tea . . .

We all make choices as hunters. I try not to rush to judgement, but instead to make sure I follow my own good judgement.

Miller
 
My, so quick to judge and hang the guy before the facts have come out. Sort of reminds me of the Black Lives Matter movement "Hand's up, don't shoot". Turned out to be a complete and utter lie. Truth doesn't matter, just perception.

There are agendas of folks in the world. One agenda is the anti hunting crowd. Anything that will make hunting look bad they will lie and fabricate to support their agenda. I find it very odd that the current administration, and news media, devotes more time to a lion (sorry, it is a lion after all) than they have to the murder of a young lady in San Fran at the hands of an illegal residing in a sanctuary city that is also illegal and the most recent videos that have come out regarding planned pareenthood's intentional altering of abortions to preserve body parts that they can sell so someone can purchase a Lamborghini (no, I'm not an abortion rights not pro - lifer - just used as an example). Or how about the recent shootings of armed service members and cops by people who were obviously jihadists? Agendas folks, agendas. Where's the outrage? When will we see the Justice Department open an investigation of these illegal activities?

Here are some questions.

1. Before this became known, how many here had ever heard of Cecil?
2. How many can name Cecils pride?
3. How many people here can point to a map and pick out Zimbabwe (and how many can spell it right)
4. Who here can tell me what happened to Cecil after it was finally dispatched?
5. What good does big game hunting do to the average person living in Zimbabwe?

I am certainly not advocating shooting big game for trophies (and don't understand why anyone would want to do it) but am waiting for the facts to come out. And while not surprised at all over the "outrage" over the death of a lion, I find it amazingly misappropriated. And the last question, How is this any different (if he is legal) than those who have a bucket list of ducks they want to shoot? Is a bird different than a lion and if so, how is it different?

Mark W
 
And the last question, How is this any different (if he is legal) than those who have a bucket list of ducks they want to shoot? Is a bird different than a lion and if so, how is it different?

Mark W
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Of course it is different. Every species has different circumstances. Limits exist for a reason. Population management should have a purpose other than revenue generation.

As for the comment about benefit to the average person in Zimbabwe the answer is absolutely nothing. I know a few of them and they suffer every day under a corrupt and brutal government.

Not hanging anyone and don't care about the dentist at all. Do care about conservation of a dwindling natural resource.
 

Of course it is different. Every species has different circumstances. Limits exist for a reason. Population management should have a purpose other than revenue generation.
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Would the news media and anti's find it any different? Not a chance. Killing of any animal for trophy purposes would be exploited by those with an agenda. A bucket list is a trophy list. Same thing IMO.

Once again, I find it disgusting that someone would shoot something like a lion for trophy reasons. I couldn't shoot a deer for it antlers either, or a moose or whatever. A trophy hunt is a trophy hunt in the eyes of those with the anti hunting agenda.

Where do you draw the line?

Mark W
 
Trophy - 1. anything taken in war, hunting, competition, etc. esp. when preserved as a memento, spoil, prize or award. 2. anything serving as a token or evidence of victory, valor, skill, etc.

The Random House Dictionary of the English Language


If the definition is drawing the line, that's it. Does it matter if your a hunter or not when it comes to understanding a definition?

Sadly in some cases there is little evidence of "valor, skill, etc". So if those are omitted does the definition still apply?
 
Paul's pics make we wish we could drop all the politics for a moment, and just have a greatest pics from your life thread. No posts with an agenda allowed, just pics from a great time in your life. I will zone out on that one and imagine myself in the background of each pic.
 
Cape buffalo is listed as Least Concern by the IUCN, with a population over 900,000, many of which are on preserves and national parks and well protected.
The only reason they are included is because they are in the "Dangerous Five" list with lions, leopards, elephants & rhinos, all of which are listed as Vulnerable, Near Threatened or Critically Endangered.
 
Not sure if link will work, but a short and interesting view from someone closer to the situation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/05/opinion/in-zimbabwe-we-dont-cry-for-lions.html?ref=opinion&_r=1
 
really puts it in perspective hearing what the locals feel, and amen to worrying more about the African animals than the African people. Never heard PETA calling for the hanging of warlords who engage in ethnic cleansing.
 
You gentlemen do understand that one of the principal drivers of the extirpation of African wildlife is the lack of a conservation ethic among members of the human population. The author's story oddly parallels Peter Benchley's plot in Jaws...with the exception of his quasi-complaint statement regarding his village being surrounded by several Conservation Reserves.

So, now let's take a "gander" at the sub-Suharan African populace's real risk from death by wildlife attack:

http://goafrica.about.com/od/africasafariguide/tp/dangerousanimals.htm

Yes, Africa is a dangerous place. Odd the author didn't mention HIV death risk...but that mortality factor has its foci in the population centers...and he is from a rural village, now residing in the U.S. under a student visa.

Yes, on one point we are in agreement; the Media routinely distorts routinely in its reporting...
 
As I stated, if you are living in a major population center, it is HIV, which is transmitted via sexual contact in the heterosexual population in the sub-Suharan section of Africa. Example: An 18 year-old male living in Soweto has a near zero probability of being alive at age 21. This statistic was current at the time that the President of South Africa had publicly stated that he did not accept that HIV was transmitted to humans via a retro-virus...

One of the "African Hunters" I know is a, now retired, infectious disease specialist. He finagled his way into a group of Federal government sponsored mission trips to do HIV risk education that coincided with his hunt dates, essentially to cover his trip costs (his statement). During that era I was working as a cardiovascular/infectious disease rep. for a large pharma. company that was part of the Pharma. Industry's effort to supply HIV drugs at cost to several sub-Saharan African countries. One requirement in the agreement offer was that adequate health care networks be established and supported by the individual countries, due to the high probability of resistance development to several of the medication classes if the dosing intervals were not adequately adhered-to.

When I met with Dr. G after his second trip, I was eventually able to direct the conversation to the HIV initiative. He told me that it would likely be rejected, since most of the Political leaders they met with felt that it represented Western intervention in their internal affairs and governance direction choices. I was quite amazed by his take on the likley success of the effort. He said, "Rick, as long as they are able to keep the birth rate in their country above the all cause death rate, they have a population to govern, control, and manipulate, which is their overriding interest and concern."

I wouldn't point an accusing finger at the American people for not caring about the African populace's day-to-day survival.

One other interesting question that comes to light is: Where does a dentist come-up with $50,000.00 dollars to kill an African lion? Nothing passes the smell test in this story...
 
I visited Zimbabwe, Botswana, Namibia and Zambia in 1993. At that time, Zambia's HIV infection rate was worse than Botswana and Zimbabwe to the south and I was told it was as high as 45%. Today their rate is 12.4%. Zimbabwe's current rate is list as 16.7% with 1.4 M adults living with Aids. They are showing 39,000 deaths due to AIDS in 2014. Clearly the message has been received and times have changed but HIV is still a serious problem.

http://www.unaids.org/en/regionscountries/countries/zimbabwe/

Now back to the lion and the dentist. If he does any kind of specialty dental work he wouldn't have a problem saving that kind of money. I have a close friend who practices endodontics and lives like a king.
 
http://www.unaids.org/sites/default/files/en/media/unaids/contentassets/documents/factsheet/2014/20140716_FactSheet_en.pdf

Two statistics jump out regarding sub-Saharan Africa's contribution to Global HIV disease risk: 1.) Seventy percent of all new annual HIV infections still occur in this geography as of 2013. 2.)Medical care is still substandard, particularly in those countries where HIV transmission rates are highest.

It's always important when you are reviewing and reporting percentage reductions for chronic life-long infection risk diseases like HIV/AIDs to cite and/or acknowledge the total infected "pool" value...which remains the highest on Earth...

Mr. Palmer practices general dentisitry with a focus on cosmetic dentistry in an a geography where managed care is dominant among the population's employer base.
 
One other interesting question that comes to light is: Where does a dentist come-up with $50,000.00 dollars to kill an African lion? Nothing passes the smell test in this story...
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Speaking from first hand experience.....a dentist...especially an orthodontist or another specialist....would have no problem dropping that kind of money on one of their passions.
 
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