Vince Pagliaroli
Well-known member
Back in the day almost every Hunting & Fishing Sportsman's Club had mounts of hawks and owls in the club house. Western Pa had few eagles and no Osprey, now both are everywhere there's water it's amazing.
Why don't we shoot hawks anymore?
- Thread starter tod osier
- Start date
I've always been glad for what birds of prey bring to the day. From the abundant eagles and osprey we now have to having a peregrine flying low enough over a decoy to touch it, harriers over a big low marsh, kicking mixed bunches of owls out of a tiny copse of plum, short-eared owls flushed off of the prairies, owls calling before dawn...
Heck, I'll be the one to say I shot hawks years ago...lots of them. It was seen as your duty, no questions asked, although we didn't harm ospreys, owls other than great horned and never saw an eagle. The small hawks were the devil. I've seen them track down a grouse a number of times, there is no escape for the grouse. We did a lot of blackbird and crow shooting on farms, the farmers hated them with a passion because they nailed the chickens. I think if we had passed them up we would have been kicked out. If I recall correctly, the last few years that it was legal to shoot raptors was if they were caught in the act of predating poultry.
One story that sticks in my mind because of what could have happened involved a GH owl. Hunting wood ducks in a bog my family owned, I was pretty young..younger than legal age lets just say. The hill to the west meant it got dark early in the hole, so I always stayed till the end of legal before picking up because the birds would pile in. Out of the corner of my eye I see the big old guy ghosting in behind, so I do my duty. SPLAT on the bog. He's really big so I figure I'll take him home, at the time my older brother was into taxidermy. Which he stunk at so he needed practice.
I walk over and pick up Mr. Hooty with my left hand, gun in the right and guess who's not dead, and not happy either. Latches onto my left arm and tries to bite me in the face. The talons came right through my heavy jacket, one of those brown canvas types everybody wore back then. I start to panic because I can't get him off, he's digging in deeper and coming really close to my eyes. He's wingbroke but flapping like crazy, I can't hold my arm steady enough to get a whack at him with the gunbarrel. I guess it wasn't really a choice, but I put the barrel of the sxs to his chest and sent him away. It was very awkward, how far to my right I had my right hand holding the gun and everything was in motion. To this day I think how close I came to shooting off my left arm.
One story that sticks in my mind because of what could have happened involved a GH owl. Hunting wood ducks in a bog my family owned, I was pretty young..younger than legal age lets just say. The hill to the west meant it got dark early in the hole, so I always stayed till the end of legal before picking up because the birds would pile in. Out of the corner of my eye I see the big old guy ghosting in behind, so I do my duty. SPLAT on the bog. He's really big so I figure I'll take him home, at the time my older brother was into taxidermy. Which he stunk at so he needed practice.
I walk over and pick up Mr. Hooty with my left hand, gun in the right and guess who's not dead, and not happy either. Latches onto my left arm and tries to bite me in the face. The talons came right through my heavy jacket, one of those brown canvas types everybody wore back then. I start to panic because I can't get him off, he's digging in deeper and coming really close to my eyes. He's wingbroke but flapping like crazy, I can't hold my arm steady enough to get a whack at him with the gunbarrel. I guess it wasn't really a choice, but I put the barrel of the sxs to his chest and sent him away. It was very awkward, how far to my right I had my right hand holding the gun and everything was in motion. To this day I think how close I came to shooting off my left arm.
CAnderson
Well-known member
I have not had the pleasure to watch a Goshawk chase a grouse the upland woods, but can imagine the aerial acrobatics that would be displayed. A friend had the opportunity to shoot a pheasant and witness a hawk swoop down and lay claim to the downed bird before his GWP could make the fetch. There was a stand off between the dog and the hawk before he called the dog off. I wouldn't want to see how that fight would go with the talons on some of these birds.
My son and I were hunting a river spot we like near a wildlife refuge. We were fortunate enough to watch a hawk swoop down on two passing ducks. The duck tried it's hardest to out run and out maneuver certain death from above. Eventually the hawk got it's talons into the ducks back. The duck continued to fight and peck at the hawks feet. They both began a death spiral like an airplane circling to the ground. Inches above the water, the hawk let go and caught the air with its broad wingspan and gained altitude. The duck collided with the water and was stunned for several seconds. The duck eventually lifted it's head up and began swimming to shore. It appeared to be in bad shape. The hawk never came back to claim its prey. For the few moments that this unfolded, I was completely caught in the excitement of being able to have witnessed such a spectacular natural event.
Chad A
My son and I were hunting a river spot we like near a wildlife refuge. We were fortunate enough to watch a hawk swoop down on two passing ducks. The duck tried it's hardest to out run and out maneuver certain death from above. Eventually the hawk got it's talons into the ducks back. The duck continued to fight and peck at the hawks feet. They both began a death spiral like an airplane circling to the ground. Inches above the water, the hawk let go and caught the air with its broad wingspan and gained altitude. The duck collided with the water and was stunned for several seconds. The duck eventually lifted it's head up and began swimming to shore. It appeared to be in bad shape. The hawk never came back to claim its prey. For the few moments that this unfolded, I was completely caught in the excitement of being able to have witnessed such a spectacular natural event.
Chad A
Hell Tod, I'm only mid-50's. Not your grandfathers age although I am cranky like an old fart. ;-) The old bird may have been dispatched 40-some years ago, but it seems like yesterday.
I mean no offense, but there are very few acrobatics involved. The grouse tend to fly a relatively straight line once they get up, the hawk just follows them until they tire and light. About as exciting as letting ducks land in the rig and shooting them in the water. UHOH, gonna need a bag of popcorn now! LOL The grouse's only hope is to get into a tangled thicket where he can get on the ground and outrun the hawk. I agree that habitat loss is a major factor in the decline of the grouse population, but the surge in raptors is a major predation factor. Looking at the timing of the decline in grouse in CT vs. the upswing in hawk population raises the eyebrows.
As an aside, my wife and I were talking about hawks at lunch and we agreed that there was a period last month when at least one dove got blasted at the birdfeeder most every day for almost two weeks. If you want to see fast, watch the little demons come in at full speed and hit a dove, it looks like a hand grenade went off in the dove. PUFF!
Ray
Well-known member
As Sutton let on, in the late 1960's and early 1970's the raptor population was severely impacted by pesticides, specifically DDT as it caused soft egg shells. The book "Silent Spring" also had a major influence on the nation's mindset towards saving critters in peril from industry. I wonder what would have happened if that book had not been published. Would have NAS Adak, Homer, and Haines become the only bald eagle populations in North America? Other than Haines these birds are just dumpster divers living off of the waste of human industry and thus not migratory populations.
As a kid in the Lahonton Valley of central Nevada, every winter the raptors came down from the hills and spent the winters in the farm fields. One super cold, pogo nippy morning we drove out to a remote corner to chase quail and noted that there was a hawk on every other fence post along the farm road. About three miles of raptors of all kinds. Good quail hunting as they were holding in the brush along the ditches.
Up here in AK, we have a booming golden eagle population that is having a serious impact on Dall sheep lamb survival. The biologists and hunting community had thought for years that wolves and coyotes were the main predators to be concerned about when managing sheep populations. Over the last few years the F&G has been studying the sheep in units near Anchorage with radio collars and aerial tracking. They focused on spring captures of lambs to see what happened over the summer. They were suprised to find that golden eagles were more often the main predator of sheep lambs than four footed critters. The conditions presented by Mother Nature kills the majority of the lambs by late snows, or deep snow making it hard for the ewes to get food and nurse, rock slides, drowning crossing spring runoff creeks, etc. But after those, golden eagles are the next vector for lamb mortality. Coyotes, wolves and bears are secondary and appear to take an opportunity rather than focus on sheep lambs. However, golden eagles focus on lambs until they become too big in in late summer.
For the armchair biologist out there here is a presentation and videos for AK Dall sheep studies.
In this PDF presentation page 61 shows a great pie chart for lamb mortality
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/species/speciesinfo/dallsheep/pdfs/chugach_range_dalls_sheep_research.pdf
Here is a link to a video of a hand capture of a lamb using a body worn GoPro camera. He looks back down the hill a couple of times. My mountain hunting buddies have always told me that where ever there is vegetation its really safe to climb. Note the biologist is going up hand over hand in "vegetation". I feel perfectly safe. There is also a link to a net capture from a helicopter.
http://www.alaskapublic.org/2013/02/01/dall-sheep-on-the-decline/
As a kid in the Lahonton Valley of central Nevada, every winter the raptors came down from the hills and spent the winters in the farm fields. One super cold, pogo nippy morning we drove out to a remote corner to chase quail and noted that there was a hawk on every other fence post along the farm road. About three miles of raptors of all kinds. Good quail hunting as they were holding in the brush along the ditches.
Up here in AK, we have a booming golden eagle population that is having a serious impact on Dall sheep lamb survival. The biologists and hunting community had thought for years that wolves and coyotes were the main predators to be concerned about when managing sheep populations. Over the last few years the F&G has been studying the sheep in units near Anchorage with radio collars and aerial tracking. They focused on spring captures of lambs to see what happened over the summer. They were suprised to find that golden eagles were more often the main predator of sheep lambs than four footed critters. The conditions presented by Mother Nature kills the majority of the lambs by late snows, or deep snow making it hard for the ewes to get food and nurse, rock slides, drowning crossing spring runoff creeks, etc. But after those, golden eagles are the next vector for lamb mortality. Coyotes, wolves and bears are secondary and appear to take an opportunity rather than focus on sheep lambs. However, golden eagles focus on lambs until they become too big in in late summer.
For the armchair biologist out there here is a presentation and videos for AK Dall sheep studies.
In this PDF presentation page 61 shows a great pie chart for lamb mortality
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/species/speciesinfo/dallsheep/pdfs/chugach_range_dalls_sheep_research.pdf
Here is a link to a video of a hand capture of a lamb using a body worn GoPro camera. He looks back down the hill a couple of times. My mountain hunting buddies have always told me that where ever there is vegetation its really safe to climb. Note the biologist is going up hand over hand in "vegetation". I feel perfectly safe. There is also a link to a net capture from a helicopter.
http://www.alaskapublic.org/2013/02/01/dall-sheep-on-the-decline/
gOTTA REMEMBER THAT THE BOOK WAS A NOVEL, FOR THE MOST PART. ooPS, HIT CAPS. sometimes, we seem to allow the whackos take control--ergo, no pipelines, coal is the devil, animals should have voting rights, ad infinitum. You want to see raptor problems, go to south america.
I do enjoy watching a coopers occasionally diving onto the bird feeder. Once, the poor bugger followed a sparrow into a hedge and was caught there for a while. Went ant looked at his predicamnet--He was NOT a happy cooper!
I do enjoy watching a coopers occasionally diving onto the bird feeder. Once, the poor bugger followed a sparrow into a hedge and was caught there for a while. Went ant looked at his predicamnet--He was NOT a happy cooper!
Steve Sutton
Well-known member
"You want to see raptor problems, go to south America"...
Yet this "RAPTOR PROBLEM" has so little impact on bird populations that Sportsmen can travel there from all over the World to shoot as many birds as they have shells for so that the "slaughter" can be buried in a hole......
From a "who's the real predator" standpoint I'd say you are looking to the sky when you should be looking somewhere else....a mirror perhaps.....
Steve
Yet this "RAPTOR PROBLEM" has so little impact on bird populations that Sportsmen can travel there from all over the World to shoot as many birds as they have shells for so that the "slaughter" can be buried in a hole......
From a "who's the real predator" standpoint I'd say you are looking to the sky when you should be looking somewhere else....a mirror perhaps.....
Steve
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Vince Pagliaroli
Well-known member
No offense taken, but every time I've seen hawks pursue Ruffed Grouse I was deer hunting deep in Allegheny National Forest. NEVER a straight flight, always twisting, turning and doing everything to dodge trees, limbs, huge rocks and the grouse corkscrewing to avoid the hawk. How they do it without slamming into trees at high speed IS amazing.
I watched a Bald Eagle last Saturday try to kill a Coot out of a large raft on the water. After ten minutes of trying everything and coming up empty the eagle gave up. Lots of energy spent for naught. Not a easy way to make a living... and Coots are very good at self preservation, maybe better than most ducks.
I watched a Bald Eagle last Saturday try to kill a Coot out of a large raft on the water. After ten minutes of trying everything and coming up empty the eagle gave up. Lots of energy spent for naught. Not a easy way to make a living... and Coots are very good at self preservation, maybe better than most ducks.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...&mid=C68ACAAD6B55AAE62EFBC68ACAAD6B55AAE62EFB
Lots of good video of the ability of goshawks to fly through forests and obstacle courses
Lots of good video of the ability of goshawks to fly through forests and obstacle courses
Question for the bird biologists in the room . . . .
I've always been told that hunter harvest is not a significant factor in determining grouse numbers in future years--that grouse abundance is primarily related to habitat quality and weather during the breeding season.
If human harvest is not an issue, is there any reason to worry about other predators?
I'll remember watching a harrier nail a teal last season for the rest of my life. Even assuming that killing predators would yield more ducks to shoot, an extra duck in my bag limit every day wouldn't begin to compensate for not having seen that.
I've always been told that hunter harvest is not a significant factor in determining grouse numbers in future years--that grouse abundance is primarily related to habitat quality and weather during the breeding season.
If human harvest is not an issue, is there any reason to worry about other predators?
I'll remember watching a harrier nail a teal last season for the rest of my life. Even assuming that killing predators would yield more ducks to shoot, an extra duck in my bag limit every day wouldn't begin to compensate for not having seen that.
Rod VanZile
Active member
I guess I'll offer an answer....
Grouse are extremely prolific breeders and while they cycle somewhat with predators (depending on location), it is their population that controls predator populations and not vice versa. In a very simple model, good habitat conditions lead to good grouse populations and that leads to good predator populations. So even if you shoot all the hawks, you impact to grouse populations in the long term.
In most case humans are very inefficient sport hunters (notice I said sport so I mean hunter participating in regulated recreational hunting during fall seasons). The game changes considerably if there are market forces or unregulated harvest.
Every year I have bald eagle sit in the trees and watch me duck hunt and I usually see at least one peregrine falcon following my boat and take a duck that flushes as I go through the marsh.
Grouse are extremely prolific breeders and while they cycle somewhat with predators (depending on location), it is their population that controls predator populations and not vice versa. In a very simple model, good habitat conditions lead to good grouse populations and that leads to good predator populations. So even if you shoot all the hawks, you impact to grouse populations in the long term.
In most case humans are very inefficient sport hunters (notice I said sport so I mean hunter participating in regulated recreational hunting during fall seasons). The game changes considerably if there are market forces or unregulated harvest.
Every year I have bald eagle sit in the trees and watch me duck hunt and I usually see at least one peregrine falcon following my boat and take a duck that flushes as I go through the marsh.
Heres a question, coupled with an observation.
The area where I live, although built up a bit since I was a kid, still has several thousand acres of mature hardwood which is loaded with turkeys, deer and of course hawks. Some of the area near my house was cut over in the 80s-90s, other is overgrown farm. There is less grouse cover than when I was a kid, but there are still multi acre pockets of it around. When we bird hunted years ago we expected to put up a few or at most a half dozen grouse. In the spring there would always be several drumming within earshot of the house.
In more than ten years I have not heard one drum, and have definitely not seen one within miles of where I live. I spend a lot of time in the woods for work, they are gone. period. If it's not the hawks, and there is at least a little cover around what is it? Some guys say the deer eat the eggs and turkeys pick off the small birds, is this true?
The area where I live, although built up a bit since I was a kid, still has several thousand acres of mature hardwood which is loaded with turkeys, deer and of course hawks. Some of the area near my house was cut over in the 80s-90s, other is overgrown farm. There is less grouse cover than when I was a kid, but there are still multi acre pockets of it around. When we bird hunted years ago we expected to put up a few or at most a half dozen grouse. In the spring there would always be several drumming within earshot of the house.
In more than ten years I have not heard one drum, and have definitely not seen one within miles of where I live. I spend a lot of time in the woods for work, they are gone. period. If it's not the hawks, and there is at least a little cover around what is it? Some guys say the deer eat the eggs and turkeys pick off the small birds, is this true?
Tom Stedner
New member
"I have not had the pleasure to watch a Goshawk chase a grouse the upland woods, but can imagine the aerial acrobatics that would be displayed."
I never had the pleasure of seeing this but I did have the displeasure of a pair chasing me through the woods. I was hiking along the Housatonic river in a state forest. I was walking through a open hemlock grove and all of a sudden I hear this screeching from behind me. I turned around just in time to see this bird flying straight for me with it's legs and tallons out. I never hit the ground so fast. It landed in a tree in front of me and was wildly sreeching at me like get the *#* out of hear and then I heard it's partner start screeching. I got up next to a tree and the 2 of them keep dive bombing me. This went on for a good 30 minutes, I thought that they would give up at some point. Nope! I ended up running from tree to tree until I hit laurel thicket. Made my way for about a quarter mile through the thicket and guess who was waiting for me on the other side. The woods were not as open there so I grabbed a big branch and swung it back and forth over my head until I was out of there.
My guess is that they had a nest in the area. I called the DEP to let them know and later in the fall went I went on that trail again there was a sign hung up stating that the trail was closed due to nesting birds.
I never had the pleasure of seeing this but I did have the displeasure of a pair chasing me through the woods. I was hiking along the Housatonic river in a state forest. I was walking through a open hemlock grove and all of a sudden I hear this screeching from behind me. I turned around just in time to see this bird flying straight for me with it's legs and tallons out. I never hit the ground so fast. It landed in a tree in front of me and was wildly sreeching at me like get the *#* out of hear and then I heard it's partner start screeching. I got up next to a tree and the 2 of them keep dive bombing me. This went on for a good 30 minutes, I thought that they would give up at some point. Nope! I ended up running from tree to tree until I hit laurel thicket. Made my way for about a quarter mile through the thicket and guess who was waiting for me on the other side. The woods were not as open there so I grabbed a big branch and swung it back and forth over my head until I was out of there.
My guess is that they had a nest in the area. I called the DEP to let them know and later in the fall went I went on that trail again there was a sign hung up stating that the trail was closed due to nesting birds.
TimJ
Well-known member
The turkey deer myths need to be laughed out of existence. They go around here with pheasants and in the south about quail. What is true is that turkeys do better in mature woods then grouse and quail do. Turkeys seem to be fine with fragmented habitat since they are not shy about walking through back yards.
Also the smaller and more fragmented the habitat the easier it is for critters like coons and foxes to find nests. Both of them do well close to humans.
Tim