young lab

D

derreckmoen

New member
I know this is a boat site. I also know there are some very knowledgeable dog people out there. I have a 9 month old lab that I have been training. I have been around hunting dogs all my life but this is the first one I have trained my self. I have force fetched him and he will retrieve a bumper come to heal and hold until I say give, most of the time. My question is some of the time I throw a bumper and he will run to it, circle and return with out the bumper. He will also do this if there are distractions or if the grass is a little longer (we are training on a soccer field). On the soccer field he retrieves to hand 95% of the time but if the situation changes the success rate changes drastically. Any tips or places to look for information would be greatly appreciated.

D
 
I am no pro in this area for sure but it sounds like the dog is not force fetched properly. One thing I have learned is it is OK to go move back steps when necessary rather than continue in the wrong way. Even going to back to retrieving with a 100' check cord doesnt sound like a bad idea. You have complete control over the dog then. It also important to switch environments frequently. If you train in the same spot day in and day out and then expect the dog to perform elsewhere with distractions it simply wont work. Change your terrain and change distractions when possible. But first work with always retrieving to heel with short retrieves in different places with the check cord. Good luck and have fun.
 
I assume that you have tried screaming "pick up the damn dummy"!!! Flailing your arms around when you scream is a nice additional touch too.
 
Derrek, what method did you use for the force fetch? Part of the process, as Andrew has noted is to re-enforce the concepts in various places, and to back up and simplify the task each time you do. Back in the day we used an ear pinch as the pressure to comply with the command. I had a young dog, who was doing very well with his work... but we did a tower shoot one day, and though he had retrieved pheasants during the FF process, he blinked on a rooster. I calmly placed him back on a short lead, and took him to the spot. Turns out the rooster was tucked in a pricker bush, on his back with spurs and beak up ready to do battle. I calmly placed my left hand under the pups collar as I always did during the force fetch sessions, and before I could even fold back his ear, he is pulling at the collar to make the retrieve, but I held him, and applied the force like always, then gave the command, and maintained pressure until his mouth was on that bird. Never, did I have a problem with him again on a pheasant. Now we did have to do the same on a wounded goose that same season... but with the FF in his training, we had the tools to correct the situation.

A well bred retriever has the strong desire to please, a soft mouth, a strong prey drive, and is trainable. The formalilty, steadyness, and obediance to command we need to teach them.

You have to assume at all times that the dog does not know how to comply first. After you have satisfied yourself that the pup understands what is required, and has the tools to comply, then and only then is it appropriate to make a correction.
 
Derreck,

Did you follow a systematic program to force fetch the pup? Skip any steps?

I've only force fetched one dog. Following a set plan, it took about 6 weeks to complete. Each day we built on the previous day's session. And ultimately, we repeated the lessons in different settings.

I can only suggest a few things:

1) Print out Dave D's post and read it every day before you train -- especially the last sentence;

2) If you're not following a force fetch program, adopt one -- be it from the Dahls, Lardy, Graham, etc.;

3) If you're following a program, back up a few steps and repeat; and

4) No marks, blinds or fun bumpers until you've completed the program and pup is reliable in five settings.

Any blinking can then be resolved by re-visiting the ear pinch.
 
I agree with everything posted here. I am no pro trainer either, going through training my first pup myself. But you definitely have not completed force fetch or the dog doesn't understand.

Did you continue to throw marks for the dog during force fetch? Was the dog doing this prior to force fetch?

You really need to follow a program. I have Evan Grahams Smartwork program and it is great. My pup and I are into force fetch right now. I can tell you though, if that after force fetch she circled a bumper or pulled that crap, I'd walk right out to her, get her right up to the bumper, and ear pinch "fetch fetch fetch" right down to the bumper.

The whole purpose of force fetch is to prevent this very thing from happening. The dog needs to learn that it must retrieve in the face of pressure and that retrieving is the only option.

Evan states in his force fetch program, that you can continue throwing marks for the dog during force fetch provided that force fetch is not causing problems. The first week, I would throw a few marks for Caly after a force fetch session, until one mark (and it only took one mark) she decided to stop right next to the bumper and listen to a bird. This immediately turned into another FF session as I walked out there, pinched her ear and drove the bumper in her mouth. Since then, I have not thrown a single mark.

Force fetch is rough, but it is necessary. Make sure you are completely through force fetch and the dog is responding appropriately before moving forward. I know it sucks because FF is boring and throwing marks and doing retrieving work is fun, but force fetch is important. I don't think anything can piss me off more than having my dog stop or procrastinate on a retrieve.
 
Derrick,

Purchase Evan Graham's SmartFetch manual, and start over at the beginning using this book. There is nothing wrong with "re-doing" the FF process. If you do it correctly, it will be an excellent bonding experience for you and your dog. It is my understanding that if you purchase Evan's manuals, he will answer questions that you email to him. You can also communicate with him through the retriever training forum.

As others have mentioned, your FF process does not sound complete, although there could be other issues impacting your pup's problem. It is impossible to make an accurate assessment via the internet. It looks like you are in Minnesota. Many professional dog trainers call Minnesota home. Also, there are many, many UKC - HRC and AKC retriever training clubs in Minnesota. I urge you to seek out the closest club, become a member and seek help from experienced club members.

Do not worry, you and your pup will work through this. It takes a lot of time, hard work, patience and consistency.

Good luck!
Dick Jennings
 
Just because the dog is force broken in the yard doesn't mean that there potentially won't be some transition to the field. Now, with that said that is assuming the dog is force broken properly.

What does that mean though? That is a rather subjective notion. The definition of a force broken dog, and the standards used can vary depending on the individual. For me I expect a force broken dog to be unconscious in his/her actions while retrieving. What I mean by that is the dog shouldn't be thinking whether or not to pick it up. Think of when you started driving. When you saw a stop sign all these conscious thoughts go through your mind. I better get off the gas, start applying the brake, I need to stop the car by this point, etc, etc. Now you don't even think about it when you see that stop sign, all these actions start occurring automaticly. Retrieving should be the same thing; the dog shouldn't be thinking about it. When completed with force breaking and the transition to the field the dog should just be doing it automaticly.

Ok, now with some dogs there is a transition to the field. Anotherwords if the dog is properly force broken, you may have to reinforce those commands when initially beginning your field work. I like to throw marks out in the field (if I can with that particular dog, some you cannot), while I am force breaking. Doing this I can reinforce KNOWN commands in the field as force breaking progresses, and I usually don't have many issues in the field after force breaking is completed.

With respect to a properly force broke dog. As I am going through force breaking I gradually up my standards of what I expect out of the dog, and create a compulsion for the bumper. I like to see the dog towards the end of force breaking driving towards the bumper while I actually provide a little resistence with a lead. The dog should overcome that resistence to pick up the bumper. Walking fetch with a lead can help make that transition to the field a bit easier.

In all, books, internet advice, videos, etc can help you with dog training, but there is no substitute for having hands on help with someone that knows what they are doing. Track down a local retriever club, or even a local good pro for advice/guidance. Some pros will help you out for exchange of throwing birds, and some even offer private one on one lessons. Retriever clubs can be a great resource if you find the "right" people. Watch some people run their dogs, talk to different people and get a feel for someone who has the right disposition to help you. Some people are great with their dogs, but aren't great working hands on with others.

It is really difficult to give out advice over the internet without working hands on with the dog, but hopefully everyone has provided you with a few nuggets that will be helpful. Remember it is NOT the end of the world if your dog makes mistakes. Training is an ever evolving process of solving issues that come up. There are very few times when you will do something with the dog to casue long term detrimental issues.

Be fair to the dog, keep him happy, and enjoy the training process and you will be well on your way to a great hunting companion.

Brian
 
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I know this is a boat site. I also know there are some very knowledgeable dog people out there. I have a 9 month old lab that I have been training. I have been around hunting dogs all my life but this is the first one I have trained my self. I have force fetched him and he will retrieve a bumper come to heal and hold until I say give, most of the time. My question is some of the time I throw a bumper and he will run to it, circle and return with out the bumper. He will also do this if there are distractions or if the grass is a little longer (we are training on a soccer field). On the soccer field he retrieves to hand 95% of the time but if the situation changes the success rate changes drastically. Any tips or places to look for information would be greatly appreciated.

D

Derreck,
I trained Chili, my first dog ever, back in the spring and summer of 03. She knew how to sit, stay, she easily handled 5 drops at a time with four of them out of her line of sight. The little girl had a super soft mouth, was trained with live pigeons and dead ducks from the freezer when we went to the lake.

Then the first day of our early teal season began. I dropped a bluewing in a spot where there was no way in China that I could get to it. I watched Chili swim out to the dead teal, sniff it about three or four times, and swim back to me, totally ignoring that duck. My gosh, I thought I was a total failure as a trainer. Twenty minutes went by when I dumped another teal. She once again did the same thing. This time I could get to the bird. She was right by my side. I grabbed the teal and tossed it out all the time encouraging her and yelling my favorite phrase, "Dead Bird"! She struggled through the mud, grabbed the duck and she hasn't missed a beat since. (I'll bet I tossed that bird out for her to retrieve at least ten times and that is all it took) With over 2500 retrieves that I have documented, Chili is a master when it comes to finding dead and or wounded birds. She has been my constant companion for eight duck seasons.
Like others have already written to you about, never give up, keep training, and always be encouraging. Your hunting partner will be just fine.
Al
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You guys are great all the advice is greatly appreciated. I revisited some of the force fetching last night. Thor was really lunging after the bumper. During his initial force fetching he was not. I think like many have said I ended the force fetching sessions too early. Another thing I have not been doing is when he does not pick up a bumper is to relate back to the ear pinch. I didn't want to discourage the retrieve. I will give this a shot. The training process has been very enjoyable up to this point but is sounds like I need to up my expectations.
 
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