2 blacks a day?

Isn't the limit in Canada 4 ? Not sure the science behind their bag limit.

I would like to be able to take more than one on the rare days that I even have the opportunity to
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The quota for Canada is set by the rules laid out in the Migratory Bird Convention (Treaty) that specifies the framework for rules in both Canada and the USA.

The limit in Canada varies by province.

New Brunswick is 3
Nova Scotia is 4
Newfoundland is 4
Prince Edward Island is 4 in the early season and 2 in the late (hybrids count as a black)
Quebec is 4
Ontario is 1 in the southern and central districts and 2 in the northern district

Keep in mind there are far fewer hunters, particularly in the Maritime provinces.
 
USFW is pushing this not hunters
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Can anyone point to something written on this from the FWS? I'd be interested to read what's discussed, and would rather get it straight from the source.
 
I can see the desire on the part of the FWS to want to open it up to 2 if the models say the harvest can be tolerated as a way to increase opportunity. That was the rationale for the seaduck zones and seasons way back when - to allow hunter opportunity. In New England loss of hunters is a serious concern and anything to keep hunters buying stamps is a good thing.

What would be really nice is if they make that change to also make an official statement on what is a black and what is a hybrid so there is consistency across the states. Clarifying what a hybrid is and what to do with them would be a great service.
 
What would be really nice is if they make that change to also make an official statement on what is a black and what is a hybrid so there is consistency across the states. Clarifying what a hybrid is and what to do with them would be a great service.
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Amen. Tod if I remember correctly isn't CT one of the few states that actually says what to consider your hybrid black ducks? Here in jersey we have to make a judgment call and just hope the friendly CO makes the same call
 
I can see the desire on the part of the FWS to want to open it up to 2 if the models say the harvest can be tolerated as a way to increase opportunity. That was the rationale for the seaduck zones and seasons way back when - to allow hunter opportunity. In New England loss of hunters is a serious concern and anything to keep hunters buying stamps is a good thing.

What would be really nice is if they make that change to also make an official statement on what is a black and what is a hybrid so there is consistency across the states. Clarifying what a hybrid is and what to do with them would be a great service.
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+1 for clarification on the identification and bag limit on hybrids. I'm on the fence on the two-bird limit, but since roughly half the "blacks" we shoot are clearly hybridized to some degree I'm not sure it would make a difference on the "pure" black bag. At least where I live. I also agree the two-bird limit is likely to encourage hunter participation.
 
What would be really nice is if they make that change to also make an official statement on what is a black and what is a hybrid so there is consistency across the states. Clarifying what a hybrid is and what to do with them would be a great service.
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Amen. Tod if I remember correctly isn't CT one of the few states that actually says what to consider your hybrid black ducks? Here in jersey we have to make a judgment call and just hope the friendly CO makes the same call
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CT is specific, that is nice. They say " Any hybrid counts towards the mallard daily bag limit. The best way to distinguish between black ducks and black duck/mallard hybrids is to look at the feathers above the wing speculum."

A question still remains if the bird is a hybrid and a hen does it count as a hen mallard?
 
+1 on clarifying and providing consistency on what constitutes a hybrid and how it counts towards your bag limit.

In practice, we call anything close the line a black duck to be safe, and count anything that is clearly a hybrid towards our mallard limit.

But I was once told by a Maine game warden that we were being way too conservative, as several birds our party called blacks were hybrids, and that the hybrids counted as an "other" duck rather than a mallard.

Since my days of shooting 6 duck limits are few and far between, being conservative has never much cramped my style.

While I'd probably prefer we stay with the one duck limit on blacks, I have to say that a 2 duck limit on blacks would relieve a lot of anxiety over on-the-fly duck ID in low light, fog, or snow.
 
+1 on clarifying and providing consistency on what constitutes a hybrid and how it counts towards your bag limit.

In practice, we call anything close the line a black duck to be safe, and count anything that is clearly a hybrid towards our mallard limit.

But I was once told by a Maine game warden that we were being way too conservative, as several birds our party called blacks were hybrids, and that the hybrids counted as an "other" duck rather than a mallard.

Since my days of shooting 6 duck limits are few and far between, being conservative has never much cramped my style.

While I'd probably prefer we stay with the one duck limit on blacks, I have to say that a 2 duck limit on blacks would relieve a lot of anxiety over on-the-fly duck ID in low light, fog, or snow.
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Hybrid as "other" is my strong preference. Right now in CT if you took a 2 hen mallards and a hen hybrid that you thought was a black - you may be in trouble.
 
Just because we can doesn't mean we should is perfect here.

The mallard is described as a one of the larger problems for both blacks and mottled ducks (other than humans). To increase hunter participation I would rather see the mallard limit bumped to 6 with an increase in the number of hens you can take or a late bonus season on mallards like they did with broadbill before my time.

In Florida they will allow you to destroy mallard nests if you get a permit, so if they are that much of a problem why can't we shoot more of them.

But then again most regulations are boiled down to money not science so nothing surprises me.
 
Hybrid as "other" is my strong preference. Right now in CT if you took a 2 hen mallards and a hen hybrid that you thought was a black - you may be in trouble.
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I emailed DEEP with that exact scenario when they announced the policy two years ago. I was not satisfied with the answer which was basically "under most circumstances the officer would call it a black duck".
 
The "Waterfowl Hunters Know the Black Duck..." poster is in my shop, and the hand out info that went with it circa 1985. PA closed their Wild Duck Farm back then (mallards) to help.

The Black Duck is my favorite large puddle duck. High Tide and an East Wind The Story of the Black Duck by Bruce S. Wright, line drawings by Peter Ward, is a book I still enjoy and refer to.

Strictly from a personal view point and hunting experience, raising the limit to two a day is absurd. I felt the same way when the Wood Duck limit went from 2 to 3 on a duck that they have no idea how large the population is.

Declining waterfowl hunters is a poor excuse to raise limits, IF that indeed is the reason.

One & Done, is good enough when it comes to the the Black Duck limit.

my 2 cents
 
In Florida they will allow you to destroy mallard nests if you get a permit, so if they are that much of a problem why can't we shoot more of them.

But then again most regulations are boiled down to money not science so nothing surprises me.
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Chris--no waterfowl expert here (ask my hunting partners!) but the challenge with waterfowl regulations is managing a migratory species. We may not want breeding by mallards in Florida, but we need to discourage breeding mallards while not excessively impacting overwintering mallards that are important to have back on their breeding grounds in the north. Where the "resident" and "migratory" populations overlap, management is going to be very difficult. Managers face the same issue trying to increase harvest on resident Canada geese without unacceptable impacts on the migratory populations.

I'm pretty glad I'm not in charge of trying to sort all that out.
 
Interesting how the topic of Hunter recruitment has come up. That was the first thing I thought of as well.I was assured that the increase had nothing to do with hunter recruitment and everything to do with population science.
 
Chris, this doesn't have anything to do with Black ducks and I don't know if this is still valid but I was directed to this document by the Florida DNR in regards to how the law is in managing Mallards in Florida. Just incase someone was interested.

https://www.fws.gov/southeast/news/2002/mallards/
 
Interesting how the topic of Hunter recruitment has come up. That was the first thing I thought of as well.I was assured that the increase had nothing to do with hunter recruitment and everything to do with population science.
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While I do care about hunter recruitment, it should not be a factor at all in setting appropriate harvest levels and bag limits.
 
I am not going to debate the coming FWS proposal to increase the black duck bag limit from 1 to 2. Please read the AHM report at the link posted above. Its sound science and monitoring data. If you don't support please submit comments and rationale when FWS publishes the proposal. But you should know that the proposal comes from both the Atlantic and Mississippi Flyway Councils to FWS and after consideration FWS accepted the recommendation from these 2 flyways. Black ducks are iconic species and no one wants to over harvest them, but based on all of the information that has been collected over the last 30 years it seems that this proposal is justified. The proposal was based upon the status of black ducks and understanding of population demographics and under the AHM process that if the regulation is too liberal, they will shift back to protect Black ducks in future years.
 
Brad:

I'm not interested in debating the proposal, or in arguing the science that supports it, but I am trying to understand it. A recommended 2 black duck bag limit is a significant change from a longstanding 1 duck limit. Presumably something in the data, the modeling methods, or the interpretation of them has changed to support this recommendation.

Based on the most recent Waterfowl Population Status Report, the population estimate for black ducks in the eastern survey area is pretty much a flat line with some year-to-year variation since 1990. https://flyways.us/sites/default/files/uploads/statusreport2016_final_0.pdf, page 16-17. This year's population estimate is up a bit from last year and within 1% of the long term average.

I confess I am not sure I understand the AHM report that was cited. It's difficult to understand a complicated model based on a few paragraphs of text. But the discussion there suggests that key factors in the decision making are estimates of mallard competition and of black duck harvest additivity. Neither of those estimates appears to have changed much in recent years. To the extent they have changed, this year's estimate of mallard competition appears to have slightly increased, while harvest additivity has dropped very slightly. My naive impression is that those factors would tend to offset each other.

Since population status and model estimates of mallard competition and harvest additivity are all pretty much the same as in recent years, it's difficult for a layman to understand how the recommendation is different this year.

It seems to me there are at least two possibilities:
(1) We layman may simply not understand the model, and relatively small changes in model inputs may lead to different recommendations. For example (grossly oversimplified, I'm sure), since we can only harvest one duck or two (not 1.5), a model that suggested allowable bag limits of 1.4 ducks may have been rounded down in recent years, while this year slightly different inputs suggests 1.6 which is being rounded up.
(2) The policy makers may be interpreting the model results differently than they have in the past--perhaps informed by new information beyond the model.

Again, I don't think this or any online forum is the right venue to argue this recommendation, and I don't expect you to reply here. That's what the public comment process is for, and you have rightly directed us to it.

But as a sportsman who does frequently write comments on proposed regulations, I'd like to understand the analysis behind this one better.

Right now, I'm torn between native conservatism about harvesting game and the selfish assessment that some of my hunts would be more enjoyable if I could kill two black ducks. Neither of those provides me much of a basis for an informed public comment.
 
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Like the Pintail was protected after the point system? Just saying. No one, or organization has all the correct info and answers. As already stated how can 2 a day enhance the waterfowling experience?

Are waterfowlers in such a steep decline, that even a bird like the Black Duck with a diminished population for so many years can be tested? It sounds like, OK we give up, the mallard is going to win lets increase the Black Duck bag limit because duck hunters are way down.

As a waterfowler for 52 years, 2 a day makes no sense to me. Unless there is a huge upswing in the population like 700,000, as in 1955. (numbers from the State Wildlife Agencies in the Atlantic and Mississippi Flyways and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, info in the 1985 Know the Black Duck).

What do I know? I'm just a old duck hunter.



"The more education a person has, the more assurance they have they do not have the answers." - unknown
 
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