2025 Devlin Snow Goose Thread

[tod osier]

... you would indeed be testing your luck not to tab with fiberglass before removing stitches.

The history here indicates otherwise. Tabbing is apparently another new fad?!?! There have been a couple that have blown out over the years when stitches came out, but only in a small area and they are easily restitched. I did not tab between stitches on my Snow Goose that is for sure and I didn't take nearly the care henry did. For a lot of my hull, I just poured neat epoxy in the joint and let it flow down the crack, nothing more. For places that didn't work, I just pasted some ketchup in there.

 

[HenryHawthorne]

Henry,
It would be remiss of me not to say something but you would indeed be testing your luck not to tab with fiberglass before removing stitches. Richard

Yes, I get that there is some risk here - one reason I'm posting so many pictures along the way is to get observations and warnings from those with experience when they see something questionable. So I appreciate your warning.

 

[HenryHawthorne]

The history here indicates otherwise. Tabbing is apparently another new fad?!?! There have been a couple that have blown out over the years when stitches came out, but only in a small area and they are easily restitched. I did not tab between stitches on my Snow Goose that is for sure and I didn't take nearly the care henry did. For a lot of my hull, I just poured neat epoxy in the joint and let it flow down the crack, nothing more. For places that didn't work, I just pasted some ketchup in there.

Part of my thinking is that restitching in most likely blowout areas wouldn't be awful. I'm cautiously optimistic - but guess if there is enough encouragement otherwise it would be simple enough to add in a dozen-ish glass tabs at/near the transom and in the most highly stressed areas in between.

 

[RM Anderson]

You are both probably correct; I always error on the side of caution. I am far from an expert and can see the opposite view. The bigger difference may be that my boat used 6mm with not alot of thickness to tab to and the plywood was significantly tortured. Actually I am curious to see what happens. The important thing is we have a free flow of different idea, many of which may be right. Richard

 

[HenryHawthorne]

You are both probably correct; I always error on the side of caution. I am far from an expert and can see the opposite view. The bigger difference may be that my boat used 6mm with not alot of thickness to tab to and the plywood was significantly tortured. Actually I am curious to see what happens. The important thing is we have a free flow of different idea, many of which may be right. Richard

I have a good bit of epoxy in those joints, from both sides - in theory that should lock panels together pretty well. If I have a lingering doubt, it is because I'll be pulling it outside for a light sanding before sheathing the bottom. But before doing that the seams will have been fully epoxied together. The other possibility in my mind is going ahead and filleting the panels to the transoms from underneath. Those are small enough areas that the minor hardship of working from below would be very limited and that would significantly mitigate other risks.

 

[RM Anderson]

The history here indicates otherwise. Tabbing is apparently another new fad?!?! There have been a couple that have blown out over the years when stitches came out, but only in a small area and they are easily restitched. I did not tab between stitches on my Snow Goose that is for sure and I didn't take nearly the care henry did. For a lot of my hull, I just poured neat epoxy in the joint and let it flow down the crack, nothing more. For places that didn't work, I just pasted some ketchup in there.

I wonder if some of the confusion and conflicting ideas are because of Devlin's second edition on stitch and glue construction verses his original tome. Richard

 

[HenryHawthorne]

I wonder if some of the confusion and conflicting ideas are because of Devlin's second edition on stitch and glue construction verses his original tome. Richard

I only have the 2nd edition so don't know how they compare, but will say it isn't perfectly clear even in the 2nd. He mentions it in one place but not another. Pure speculation, but guessing he found it necessary in some boats but not all.

 

[tod osier]

I wonder if some of the confusion and conflicting ideas are because of Devlin's second edition on stitch and glue construction verses his original tome. Richard

You have to consider that Devlin is chronically half-assed and that it is a greater than reasonable risk to blindly follow his written instructions (and even worse to take what he says for face value if you ever ask him something). His designs are good enough, but he has a long record of bad advice and half-assery. We have a collective experience of 2 decades plus with him and his designs.

As for tabbing, the style of build is stitch and glue, not stitch, tab and glue. Several people have built snow geese with absolutely no need for tabbing. The problems with seams bursting that I can remember were on the little broadbill type boats with the very pointy bow and I'll add that their builds were not at the level I'd consider top notch.

The boats are built out of epoxy and wood, you need to trust the epoxy if you are going to trust your life to it.

 

[RM Anderson]

I only have the 2nd edition so don't know how they compare, but will say it isn't perfectly clear even in the 2nd. He mentions it in one place but not another. Pure speculation, but guessing he found it necessary in some boats but not all.

Henry,
One thing I did note, and actually called Sam about, was that he chose to use the term rather broadly. In some examples in his book tabbing mean just filling the seams with thickened epoxy. In other areas of his book tabbing was used to describe rectangular pieces of glass at intervals. His answer to me was to use a combination of both, which of course is what I did. Is it necessary in every case? No, probably not, but Devlin has built hundreds of stitch and glue boats while I and most others on this forum have only built one or two. Nor is building up upside down a perfect method. I chose to build that way because it seemed most logical and I wanted a strong back for building canoes. One thing I think we can all agree on is that stitch and glue, however interpreted, has given even novice builders the ability to build beautiful boats. Richard

 

[HenryHawthorne]

Henry,
One thing I did note, and actually called Sam about, was that he chose to use the term rather broadly. In some examples in his book tabbing mean just filling the seams with thickened epoxy. In other areas of his book tabbing was used to describe rectangular pieces of glass at intervals. His answer to me was to use a combination of both which of course is what I did. Is it necessary in every case? No, probably not, but Devlin has built hundreds of stitch and glue boats while I and most others on this forum have only built one or two. Nor is building up upside down a perfect method. I chose to build that way because it seemed most logical and I wanted a strong back for building canoes. One thing I think we can all agree on is that stitch and glue, however interpreted, has given even novice builders the ability to build beautiful boats. Richard

Based on my conversation with Sam, a few emails back and forth, his book and the smaller boat-building guide they email when plans are purchased, and various older threads here describing conversations and/or emails with Sam, I've reached the conclusion that he isn't interested in offering explicit instructions on how to build a given boat. Rather, he is selling basic plans for specific boats and giving general advice/guidance for a building methodology - and leaving much of the translation to individual builders. There are a few things on which he is exceedingly clear and direct (plywood recommendations, for and against, for example) - enough so that I suspect the topics on which he isn't so direct (like tabbing with or without glass) are not left a bit ambiguous at random/unintentionally. Whether he has less strong convictions on these topics or whether he's just leaving gray space for boat-builders to experiment, use their judgement, and learn (where mistakes may not be critical), I don't know - but that's how I'm reading his stuff.

 

[tod osier]

Based on my conversation with Sam, a few emails back and forth, his book and the smaller boat-building guide they email when plans are purchased, and various older threads here describing conversations and/or emails with Sam, I've reached the conclusion that he isn't interested in offering explicit instructions on how to build a given boat. Rather, he is selling basic plans for specific boats and giving general advice/guidance for a building methodology - and leaving much of the translation to individual builders. There are a few things on which he is exceedingly clear and direct (plywood recommendations, for and against, for example) - enough so that I suspect the topics on which he isn't so direct (like tabbing with or without glass) are not left a bit ambiguous at random/unintentionally. Whether he has less strong convictions on these topics or whether he's just leaving gray space for boat-builders to experiment, use their judgement, and learn (where mistakes may not be critical), I don't know - but that's how I'm reading his stuff.

Yes, and I am trying to convey what we have learned as a community over the past couple decades about how to build a very small segment of his boat designs. I'm trying to faithfully convey the collective knowledge specific to these half a dozen models that we build and have watched dozens being built here. Very few of those who have built are here still and I'm trying to summarize things that have been discussed many times and present a balanced view.

I also don't think Devlin has built very many of these boats. This is the place to sell wooden duck boats and I've never seen a Devlin-built boat for sale here. In that same time I've seen dozens of home built devlin boats for sale here and many dozens of boats for sale built by very small niche shops that only turn out a couple boats per year.

 

[HenryHawthorne]

Pulled stitches from the nose - all seems quite solid. But decided I'd go ahead and fillet and glass them front and rear transoms and the sides of the nearest bulkhead. I'd do that before flipping regardless, so why not now? I started on the front knowing it would be the most difficult to get to - lots of sliding under the frame to pull up in a tight space.





Of course, that resulted in epoxy in my hair, presumably from drips on the plastic. I probably need to get a gallon of vinegar for the shop - not sure multiple acetone head scrubs would be good for my health. But a light rubbing then a sink/Go-Jo head wash seems to have gotten it all out.

Will get on the aft transom in the next few days - with both done, I'm confident the panels will stay in place for sanding and sheathing and sanding and completing the bottom.

I'm planning to tape the outside seams in addition to sheathing - I've noted Sam recommends sheathing first and see others here have done it in that order. Is there a reason for that versus taping first and using the sheathing to cover the tape seams? I plan to sheath dry, so would let the epoxied tape cure and sand lightly before sheathing.

 

[RM Anderson]

I believe that I taped first. Not sure why I decided to do it ass backwards but it all worked out. I taped with 12 oz biax followed by two layers of 6 oz S glass. I agree with Tod; Devlin's glass schedule seems a bit light. Richard

 

[RM Anderson]

Pulled stitches from the nose - all seems quite solid. But decided I'd go ahead and fillet and glass them front and rear transoms and the sides of the nearest bulkhead. I'd do that before flipping regardless, so why not now? I started on the front knowing it would be the most difficult to get to - lots of sliding under the frame to pull up in a tight space.

View attachment 65317

View attachment 65318

Of course, that resulted in epoxy in my hair, presumably from drips on the plastic. I probably need to get a gallon of vinegar for the shop - not sure multiple acetone head scrubs would be good for my health. But a light rubbing then a sink/Go-Jo head wash seems to have gotten it all out.

Will get on the aft transom in the next few days - with both done, I'm confident the panels will stay in place for sanding and sheathing and sanding and completing the bottom.

I'm planning to tape the outside seams in addition to sheathing - I've noted Sam recommends sheathing first and see others here have done it in that order. Is there a reason for that versus taping first and using the sheathing to cover the tape seams? I plan to sheath dry, so would let the epoxied tape cure and sand lightly before sheathing.

 

[RM Anderson]

Henry,
Your post illustrates the purpose of tabbing with fiberglass better than I could have with a thousand words: It keeps epoxy out of your hair! I can't imagine doing fillets upside down. It may seem crazy to folks who built right side up, but I did not do my inside fillets and taping until after I had painted my hull and flipped it right side up. Richard

 

[RM Anderson]

Henry,
Trying to remember my process but I think I taped first because I wanted to feather the edges of the biax tape with an orbital sander and didn't want to damage my sheathing layers. Can't imagine it would matter either way. Richard

 

[HenryHawthorne]

Henry,
Trying to remember my process but I think I taped first because I wanted to feather the edges of the biax tape with an orbital sander and didn't want to damage my sheathing layers. Can't imagine it would matter either way. Richard

I went back through the slimmer boatbuilding document Devlin emailed me after ordering the plans. It suggests tape first for that purpose (somewhat contradicting the book, but makes more sense to me, too).

 

[HenryHawthorne]

Got her outside to do some light sanding and rounding of the edges in prep for next steps. Only the front edges from front transom to hull pieces left to do, but had to stop.






Tod's eagle eye picked out in previous picture the slight hook I have in the rear planing section, so I have a little building up to do there as well as some light fairing in other areas before I can get tape on. I also need to move my table saw over to the shop so I can get the keel cut and dry fitted before taping over that seam and losing center references.

 

[William Reinicke]

Got her outside to do some light sanding and rounding of the edges in prep for next steps. Only the front edges from front transom to hull pieces left to do, but had to stop.
View attachment 65468

View attachment 65469

View attachment 65470

Tod's eagle eye picked out in previous picture the slight hook I have in the rear planing section, so I have a little building up to do there as well as some light fairing in other areas before I can get tape on. I also need to move my table saw over to the shop so I can get the keel cut and dry fitted before taping over that seam and losing center references.

A hook is absolutely no good. I have seen what hooks do in that area of a boat on the nitro z7 line. Its the bass boat I have, and if the hull is good, they are speed demons, if theres a hook, its never getting on plane. People thought i was nuts when I was looking for my z7 because the first thing i did was get on my back and start rubbing the hull back towards the pad of the hull. Some were so bad, I didnt even make it all the way down and could see it. A simple straight edge will point it out very easily, and it will also let you mark where you need to build up with glass and kind of how far you need to build it up. Just google Nitro Z7 hull hook and you can find many pictures of this issue one these boats and the straight edge trick everyone uses to find the subtle hooks on theirs.

 

[HenryHawthorne]

A hook is absolutely no good. I have seen what hooks do in that area of a boat on the nitro z7 line. Its the bass boat I have, and if the hull is good, they are speed demons, if theres a hook, its never getting on plane. People thought i was nuts when I was looking for my z7 because the first thing i did was get on my back and start rubbing the hull back towards the pad of the hull. Some were so bad, I didnt even make it all the way down and could see it. A simple straight edge will point it out very easily, and it will also let you mark where you need to build up with glass and kind of how far you need to build it up. Just google Nitro Z7 hull hook and you can find many pictures of this issue one these boats and the straight edge trick everyone uses to find the subtle hooks on theirs.

I thought about claiming it was a design change to address porpoising.

Fortunately, it is quite minor, and really only exists at the keel and within an inch or two either side. Frankly, by the time I get it glassed and a keel on it 90%of the problem would likely be covered and solved... but it should be pretty simple to get it right with filler, a long straight-edge, and some longboat sanding. I also have a little to do just in front of the scarf joints in the bottom section - it looks like I was a touch heavy with the sanding there while I still had the panels flat.