cedar gunners?

christian brown

New member
quick question. i heard through the grapevine that hollowed cedar for gunners isnt the greatest idea, mainly because of how the weather can cause them to expand and crack. i've been carving for about a year an a half now, and was planning on cedar for my gunners. i would appreciate any advise regarding. thanks
 
Christian, there are many cedar gunners around that are well over 100 years old. Most of these were hunted hard. Hollowing them makes them more stable as far as expansion is concerned...........................Kevin
 
I may very well be mistaken, but I've gotten the impression that solid cedar is far more likely to crack or split than hollow cedar.

NR
 
That is absolutely correct, hollowing relieves the internal stresses in the wood and helps prevent cracks from forming and spreading.

I may very well be mistaken, but I've gotten the impression that solid cedar is far more likely to crack or split than hollow cedar.

NR
 
I hear if you fill hollowed cedar with a load and 1/2 of bs it really makes them ride really nice on the water!
That's a load of bs! A well made cedar decoy will last for many, many years.
 
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since cedar is so lightweight i wasnt going to hollow it all the way down to 1/4 inch walls, does anyone think that would matter? thanks for the advice i feel much more comfortable with the cedar now.
 
the 1/4" is not important
I have made some cedar decoys that I use in my kayak, those are very thin walled to keep down the weight, but they become delicate
all of the other cedar decoys I have made are in my seaduck rig, and they are thick walled, some spots down to a 1/2" some places like high on the back maybe an 1" thick
bottom boards are 3/4"
I have not noticed any cracking in any of them, thick or thin, just taking some wood out of the core helps to stabilize the wood,
I thing sealing them correctly and using dry wood in the first place helps with cracking the most
I also have a dozen old squaws that I made 6 years ago that are solid, and none of them have cracked or checked at all.
 
I usually don't go less than 1/2 inch, not that you can't but I don't personally feel it neccesary. Also remember to leave some material in the center to attach a keel to.

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Christian,

Hollowing in my opinion is one of the best ways to help avoid cracking by relieving some of the internal stresses in the wood.

If you look at a lot of the old Mason decoys, for example, the solid-bodied birds in the Standard or Detroit grade used wood that had heartwood. The tangential shrinkage is more extreme there, and caused a lot of the cracks and checks you see in them.

So, not only do you look at the grain running the length of the board, you want to look at the end grain as well. You can't always avoid the heartwood, but I try to do so as much as possible.

If you are doing two-piece bodies (i.e. starting out with two blocks of wood to make the body rather than carving the body from one piece and splitting it), the other piece of advice is to lay the end grains curving towards each other rather than away.
 
Christian, I guess I am the odd man out. Most cedar decoys because of their cost are babied and not hunted hard. In Keith Muellers book, The Art In Making Decoys", he states, "The decoys would have to hold up for several seasons at a time without seasonal touch-up and repairs".

I have bought or traded decoys with others and with pampering they will last, but not hunted hard, at least non I have seen.

I know this post will raise the ire of some, but most wooden decoys ended up in wood stoves. Why do you think with all the makers making hundreds and hundreds, even thousands of decoys over such a long period of time, yet not many survived. All those birds in "original paint", weren't hunted much after a certain point if at all. Any serious hunted was forced to touch up and repair his decoys every season. Even contemporary makers like Jim Schmiedlin, are forced to touch up and repair their decoys annually if they want to continue hunting them.

Decoys wear and thats a fact. In my opinion, high density cork is the toughest material for decoys. Sure some wood and cedar decoys last way beyond the average, but a friend of mine drives a 1917 Jeffery, that doesn't mean that Jeffery cars were made to last, it is just a percentage thing.
 
I don't believe cork decoys to be any more durable than wood. Any decoy, be it wood, cork, foam, or plastic need touched up every now and then if you hunt them hard. The most fragile and most likely to break area on any carved decoy wood or cork is the bill and the tail, and since cork decoys usually have wooden heads and bills they are just as likely to suffer damage as wooden birds.

Can wooden decoys be damaged? Absolutely, but if take a reasonable amount of care with them you will pass them on to your children many years from now.
 
Chris, lets say all things are equal with the wooden head and neck. Do you actually think a hollow cedar decoy body will hold up as well as a solid high density cork body?

I know you get cold weather where you live, but up here when hunting day after day in with air temps in the teens, single digits, or below zero, we are forced to drag our decoy barrels into a heated area to thaw each night, and then back out and freezing during the day. I'm just saying not many hollow birds stand up to this treatment. Mike
 
folks, certain characteristics occurred in various areas due to availability of materials, type and condition of water, and even species gunned. For example, given that the upper bay decoys were made in the hundreds of thousands , and a lot were hand chopped before the advent of the duplicating lathe, and that they were mad to endure adverse conditions, especially during market gunning days, and in sinkbox rigs, and that the dekes often took shot charges, you will find that pretty much ALL upper bay dekes were solid.
That said, the folks in jersey who gunned tidal guts in small boats, or even pond boxes, needed lightweight dekes, which could be dragged or carried in the decoy rack of a bbsb, thus the necessity for hollowing out decoys.
I am sure most of you could cite other examples--for example, the bobtail diver so prominent in michigan.
Think of the dekes in your own region, and figure out historically, why the evolved as they did.
Tout a son gout.
as an add-on---i am pretty sure that materials used were based upon availability in that particular region. Areas without an abundance of wood for decoy making, and i am thinking of long island, as an example, seem to have relied on "odd" materials early on, such as cork. Places that had abundance of cedar used that, sugar pine hete and there, ship masts, whatever was easy to scrounge and either cheap of, better yet, free.
 
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George,
Always impressed with your post. Those of us that carve in cedar believe we have chosen the best medium to create a decoy just as those that carve in cork or pine believe its the best medium. So ask a carver who prefers wood what makes the best decoys? "Wood of course!" ask someone who carves cork what makes the best decoys "Cork of course!"

I prefer cedar hands down its available locally and I enjoy tying my work to the area I live. I also use locally grown basswood for heads at times and white ash for keels.

on a side note, I carved a bobtail today solid cedar body and a cedar head. Its lighter them my cork bobtails by a far cry and I am sure it will take abuse of boats dogs and stray shot just as well as the corks has to this point. Had I put a basswood head on him I am sure it would be considerably heavier which could be why the cork bobtails are heavier. They have basswood heads.

Both will make good gunning stools they just leave different dust on the floor when making them.
 
Brandon, I liked George's answer as well. I sure wish you would post your bobtail pic. Bobtails are great open water design.

I'm a 50/50 carver , between cork and wood. After giving consideration to George's design statement, solid wood decoys were the most prolific, big water diver decoy in my local. Perhaps that is why I now favor cork. Factoring in the weight to number ratio, solid wood decoys are not very practical for the size of boats we utilize, but solid cork is. There is always the exception, such as the piece of cedar you made your bobtail out of. Occasional I get light pieces of basswood, white pine, or black willow, but these exceptional light pieces are susceptible to soaking up water once the finishes are breached.

It is all fun and makes for interesting conversation.
 
Mike ask and you shall receive.

This is the bobtail its Willies bluebill pattern downsized 10% to match with a lesser scaup pattern for a head that I could not tell you where I got it anymore. It looks smaller in the picture then it really is.

No side pockets simply smooth and easy just like a gunner should be... ha!

I am curious to see how it floats compared to the cork an bottom board version.

2010-05-13-Decoys-06.jpg


2010-05-13-Decoys-07.jpg

 
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