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that had me thinking about a day a few summers ago here in Alaska. I was hiking in the hills behind Anchorage where the grizzly and black bears, wolves, and bull moose rome as they please. This day I was in the mood to carry my .44 mag redhawk in my Black Eagle tactical chest holster (there had been some bears actively feeding on salmon in a stream at the base of the hills so they were around). With just the wood grips sticking out of the holster it looks like some sort of hiking gear. I went up a far hill and had lunch over looking Cook Inlet and Knik Arm as well as 90% of Anchorage.

I only saw one moose and it was far away but there was some bear poop on the main trail closer to town. The hillsides were animal free that day. I had hoped to see some sheep on the back ridge from the hill top, but no joy.

As I was coming back down off the hill the brush closes in but the trail is still 9 to 10 feet wide with some tight "blind" corners. As I rounded one of the corners there was a family group coming up the hill towards me. Grandmotherly lady in the lead talking non stop about what she was seeing and then the young adults with the little kids running wild around their feet. It was obvious that grandma was up visiting her kids and the grand kids. It as a great day to take her out on a walk in the hills over looking town.

As I approached the family grandma beamed at me and then she saw IT. That huge murderous beast of a pistol strapped to my chest. She screamed "HE"S GOT A GUN!" "GET THE KIDS!" I think there was a couple of OH MY GODS in there as well. The other "adults" also went into a panic and grabbed up their little ones and they all scampered to the side of the trail. Grandma started in on me telling me that this was a national park and that guns were not allowed and that she was going to call the park rangers on me. I stopped with my hands held up to my sides and told them that it was legal to carry a gun here and that this was a state park not a national park. She was still screaming at me to leave them alone. I did since the kids were all crying by now. The dad had picked up a stick to defend his family with. I parted ways with the nice family mentioning that there was some fresh grizzly bear poop up the trail (it was a few days old actually) and they he had better keep his stick "just in case." I did hear a comment to my backside, "What is this world coming to when you can't even go hiking without seeing guns. Somebody has to do something about this." Obviously she had no clue where she was on the planet, but her political voice is all that matters.

So, yeah you will know porn when you see it, but your idea of what is over the top is very different from another persons. In the above case I had "porn" on my chest in grandmas view, but I was doing what is common sense all over Alaska from April to November.
 
Andrew,
My intent was not to bash Jim Zumbo. I didn't read his piece. But I hate to see these type of threads where guys who have more in common than they don't get worked up and kill each other. The part that is important to me is that we don't seem to be going in the right direction when it comes to our future as hunters. I think that all to often we savage each other over this stuff and no one says, "Hey, as a group we can't afford this and we need to spend more time and effort on protecting what we have and keeping those that would love to see us divided, from doing just that."
No fully automatic rifle or shotgun is legal in this country without special permits and so I can't fall in to the camp that wants to throw these semi-auto rifle guys under the bus. We are not a style council. It is a rifle that loads one round after the next just like an 11-87 or A-5. If a rule says magazine plug to keep it 3 shells or less then it is legal with the plug. This was to keep us from shooting ten ducks out of every flock with our shotguns.
Big game managers don't care if your deer is down in one shot or 4. They just look at numbers based on carrying capacity of the land and political pressure regarding quantity vs. quality when it comes to heard mgmt. and give you your one or more tags. Magazine limits aren't a big mgmt. issue for them.
As for perception I also don't fall in on the, "Bad Look," side. Show any house wife on the fence what it looks like when you chase down a cripple black duck or eider in Dec. or Jan and she is never going to be on your side no matter what you swat it with. But the guy with a legal semi-auto loading rifle is not going to have a problem with what you did. He knows it is part of hunting and a part of the cycle for you to harvest game and keep the resource going based on your participation in the taking and the protection of the habitat where you hunt the game.
Again, do I want to hunt with a pistol grip black rifle with an emaciated small 22 caliber designed to wound, not kill enemy combatants. No. But do I want to shoot an elk some day with a nice 1903 Springfield 30-06 action with a sporter stock using a Lyman peep sight just like the guys did after coming home from Germany. You bet.
Do I want every hunter, trapper and fisherman in the USA to say, "Way to go, nice Elk, at the game supper." you bet.
But I don't want to listen to one more bass fisherman rip another guy for killing a bass and eating it with his kids any more than I want to hear a bunch of guys rip another hunter who takes a legal gun hunting and kills his legal limit. I just don't believe the type of gun matters to the fence sitters. I feel they don't like the killing part and no nice picture of some guy in a tie and nickers with his best game gun, is going to change that (just ask the quite well dressed and mannered British Fox Hunters). As I said, the word legal plays a key role for me. If the guy's following the rules and is not breaking the law we have to stick together. I am not talking about slob poachers or armed criminals who use arms to break the law. Because in the eyes of the non hunters, we duck hunters look pretty foolish on Saturday TV to people who only eat meat that some one else puts in a plastic wrapper without the feathers attached for them.

PS.. if you haven't looked at the PETA link in my post above you need to do so.

Your Friend Over the Line In CT.
Bob B.
 
PICT0022.JPGOk no assault weapons for hunting, but how about this for those down range shots? 106mm antitank great for yote hunting!
 
And it is the Brady Campaign's myspacer. They want any ammo that can penetrate a cops body armor to be banned. They also want any weapon that can be modified to be concealed with simple hand tools to be banned. Hmmm...that will leave me with my bow an arrow since every firearm I own can be modified for concealment with a hack saw or penetrate cop body armor. At close range even my recurve will go right through body armor. We will be back to throwing rocks soon if they get what they want.

http://refugeforums.com/refuge/showthread.php?t=514291

http://www.myspace.com/88508969

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=88508969&blogID=231968340&MyToken=4f14088f-d749-4711-9bbf-f7f5e1e75f3b

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=88508969&blogID=231738183&MyToken=4f14088f-d749-4711-9bbf-f7f5e1e75f3b
 
on those sites is both mind numbing, and frieghtening....

On the anti-side you have people who equate things like bi-pods, slings and any gun that can kill something over 100 meters away as "not suitable for hunting" and therefore a "WMD".....

On the other side you have the "goons" that I believe that Zumbo, and people like Andrew on this site, were referring to when they state they see no need for "assault weapons" to be used in hunting....people whose avatars include themsevles posed with AK's with 30 shot magazines and fools who make statements like...."we rule cause we have grenades".....

Is there any wonder that both sides fear for their rights????

Were I afraid of guns I could easily believe that the pro-gun people on those sites were "the average" hunter and therefore of dnager to myself based ot he very content of their avatars and comments....by the same logic I can see these gun control nuts, these people who would claim that somehow something as simple as a "sling" or a "pistol grip" could be the designator between a hunting firearm and a "sniper rifle" as being so intent on taking away EVERY gun in existance because, in some way, it could be used to kill someone, wheter it be because of the caliber, the distance at which it can be used, the magnification of its scope, or even the presence of a sling....

Scary stuff there....and not just on one side of the argument....is it any wonder that France has outlawed several of the most popular hunting calibers in their country, or that Australian hunters are limited to double guns or single shots?


Steve
 
Blind loyalty to any idea is a bad thing, and the "fors" are just as crazy as the "antis" to that reguard. Too many people don't operate on facts. Too many people believe that if you read it then it is true.

What really needs to take place is a national safety and training requirement before purchasing a firearm. We need a national drivers license anyway with the mobility of the population, so why not a national gun safety requirement? This should get me kicked out of the NRA in a couple of days, but what they are not thinking about is the huge income potential for "qualified" trainers to teach the courses to get the people ready to take their safety test to get their safety certificate. They should be thanking me a couple of days after they kick me out. Anyone with a hunters safety certificate gets their national cert without the additional test. Well, that is going to cost the NRA money so I will be kicked back out again.

Once everyone gets on the same page as to what a gun is and how to use it safely, I think the "accidental" injuries will nearly stop. Most accidental injuries are a safe user related issue and not a product defect issue. Just see the warning on the side of a Glock about it will still fire with the magazine out. There are lots of deaths/injuries caused by that piece of "missing" info since the user has had no training on the weapon.

There should also be a gun safety course in schools that lets all kids know the basic info. They get it for sex so why not guns since guns are clearly mentioned in the constitution and sex is not.

On some other Refuge posts a commentor brought up death by vehicle. The government wants to make them safer, but they are not trying to take them away even though more people (kids too) are killed by vehicles. But vehicles drive our national economy with their jobs and taxes on fuel so they will never be taken away except by the users when they can no longer afford them. Soccer moms driving SUVs with Hemi's? Who would have thought up that in 1995? You would have been kicked to the curb back then.

So where do we as a nation go from here?
 
Ray, I have been for mandatory firearms safety classes in school also. The other day, my grandson and I were talking about his buddies and school..he is in 2nd grade...I asked him if he told them about his pellet gun or hunting with me..he said DUH! NO WAY!...I was taken aback by this statement from him and found out that just mentioning guns in school gets you in trouble. Our "educated" elite must think if you ignore it it will go away or at least not be blamed on them.
 
with mandatory training before being allowed to "operate" a firearm my guess is that you are exactly right that you'd be swarmed immediately by the very same guys that are even now celebrating Mr. Zumbo's unexpected and premature literary death...

Suggesting to the Rambo's of the gun world that they have to know what they are doing before they do it, and that they will be held responsible if they aren't/don't, is pure blasphemy to that group and you can bet they'd have you aligned with the gun stealing liberal nancies for even suggesting it...

Excesses on both sides for sure and I just can't imagine the two ever finding any common ground...and partly so because neither side will really even listen to what the other side says with even any real attempt at understanding what they are saying...

Steve
 
Ray & Lee

I agree with your last statements re education 100%. The two most valuable courses I have ever taken were 1) typing (so I can leave long controversial posts), and, 2) hunter safety course. I remember a great deal of the lessons learned about gun safety. I had a very good instructor.
 
My gun safety instructor was my dad's size 10 boot..which left a definate imprint in my mind and seat. When I was a kid we didn't think twice about drawing guns or playing army in school. It seemed everybody hunted and if you didn't,then you had a friend whose dad would let you tag along..and that kid got an education too. I guess it does take a village to raise a kid.

Steve, I think more people would be willing for the education deal than what you think..the crazies on both sides are big mouthed minorities. The problem is, the media focus's on the idiots because the rest of society get's a laugh out of it or it makes them feel better about themselves..look at the popularity of "COPS" or Travis's favorite.."Springer".
 
who said something to me that I use today with the nephews...

"if you shoot me and don't kill me I'm going to kick your ass"..."and if you do kill me I'm never going to take you hunting again"....

He's also the guy who handed me a 16 ga. shotgun when I was 8 or so and when I balked at shooting it because of fear of the recoil said...."its o.k. if you don't shoot it but just so you know...I don't hang around with sissies"....If memeory serves I ran him out of shells shortly there after....

You are likely correct about more being willing to do it but sadly its the "big mouthed minorites" that drive things and that means they win till the silent majority finally steps in to lend some gopod old common sense to the problems....until then "minorities" will govern whether we can hunt with dogs, or over bait, or trap, or have a bipod on our gun, etc. etc. etc. while the majority complains about the outcome after the decision is already made...

Steve
 
I had an 11 1/2 sized boot for my education in all things mechanical and animal. I also had a formal 4H class in Oregon when I was 11 and then 12 for the official test when I was part of a rifle team. I have the card laminated and keep it in the gun safe since I don't want to repeat the class if I ever go someplace like KS that requires mandatory hunter Ed.

For my various jobs I have had formal bear shooting safety classess which showed me just how bad off gun safety is for a lot of people. Even the ones that already own guns but had never been trained in them.

Now that I think about it the 4H guys name was Jim Parks and he was from Redding, CA. He was really into black powder, too. And he was a logger. I am wondering if he is any relation to Dave. He would be nearly 70 now. Those were some of the funnest weekends going up to his farm and plinking for team practice. The only part I didn't like as a kid was having to get out and open the gates in the dark for the weeknight classes. It was bigfoot country there in Curry County, and my dad would always poke a little fun at me as did Jim. He was an oiler on the Ruby creek job when the foot prints were "discovered" so he had an endless amount of story material to scare the bejesus out of us kids. It didn't help that he had a few angus and that they liked to come up to the truck as you opened the gates to check you out. No .44 mag in a chest pack back then.
 
'Ray, I've been saying that for years. I took Hunter's Ed in 3rd grade...it was part of my schooling in Wabash, Indiana. We also have an Indiana issued license plate on our Durango that says,"In GOD we trust" in front of an attractive waving blue American flag background. I can't imagine dealing with the secular progressive culture on the east or the west coast and places in between. My head would probably explode like in the movie Scanners.

Unfortunately, I also agree with Steve(the unfortunate part being because it's the cold truth).

Lee, the fact that your grandson doesn't feel comfortable saying anything about guns to his classmates is a very sad comentary on this country. I'm not sure where he goes to school but I'd try to do something about it...maybe see if you can organize a hunter ed instructor to make a presentation. For all of it's faults, lowly LaPorte, Indiana is pro-gun. There are hunters on every block that don't hide the fact.
 
I want an AR10 in .308 or .260 with colapsable stock and optical sights for deer hunting. I would dip paint it. I would use a magazine larger than 5 rounds because the short mags look dumb. I'd also like an AR15 in .223 for varmits etc. For a gun ban, I recommend banning fine doubles because these are the guns of the rich.
 
The antis don't care if you are carrying an AK-47 with Hezbollah carved into the stock, or a Parker double, neither conforms to their "perceptions" of what a hunting gun should be.
 
Voting is just such an issue. In Anchorage less than half of those that can vote. I figured it out during the general election the year before Gore/Bush that less than 30% of the possible voting population had actually gone to the polls during that election. For Gore/Bush it was nearly 50% of those that could, did. We that vote have all the power, but those that don't vote will have to put up with what we did, or at least tried to do.

You look at the volume of traffic the posts on the other sites have received and how negative it is and you start thinking that "everyone" is pissed off about Zumbo. Right now I have about 300 people around me in the building and I bet not a one of them knows anything about this current blog hot topic even though half of them are potentially hunters or other "outdoors" types. So, maybe about 10,000 people are aware of Zumbo's blog out of a possible 5 million or so outdoors men? That is a whole lot of "power" to be swinging around loose like it is.
 
I want an AR10 in .308 or .260 with colapsable stock and optical sights for deer hunting. I would dip paint it. I would use a magazine larger than 5 rounds because the short mags look dumb. I'd also like an AR15 in .223 for varmits etc. For a gun ban, I recommend banning fine doubles because these are the guns of the rich.
Click to expand...


Like you said in your second post...they (the anti-gun folks) can't see a difference between a Stevens and a Sten. How about mandatory military service for everyone with extensive firearms training? How about mandatory head of household gun ownership? Both of these things would probably shock many people, but mandatory military service is required in Isreal, and mandatory head of household gun ownership is (was?) in place in Switzerland and in Kenesaw Georgia. I don't know if the head of household thing is still in effect, but when it was Kennesaw had a very low crime rate.

http://ecclesia.org/truth/kennesaw.html



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Ray, I would never have known about it if ..cough..hack...Jay hadn't enlightened this board about it. The blogs that made me cringe on that site were the ones using their 4 letter word vocabulary to their utmost ability. I think THEY are more disturbing to the general populace than an AR in the woods. Sometimes I wonder if they have AR's and AK's because they can't spell Remington or Winchester..I also wonder if they vote or just lip off during the election that it doesn't matter who gets elected cause their all F'n F'rs so it don't matter?
 
obviously anybody who has read this thread knows my stance on this issue. And, you can see that I am admitedly re-evaluating my stance(per my post a few days ago)...at least to the extent that if I am so far in the minority that some part of my thinking must be flawed(save the jokes). Andrew and I pretty much feel the same way about it. After I posted last night I got to thinking about what I said. It made me wonder, maybe I feel the way I do because of the "insular" society I live in. Is it possible, that I look at this issue the way I do because I don't feel the anti-gun "heat" on a day to day basis so to speak? It's kind of ironic that I may be exposed to too much gun culture. Perhaps, if I was exposed to the antis more and chose to pay more attention to the rhetoric I'd have a different opinion.

I guess it can work both ways. Just thinking aloud.
 
Probably Jay. I can't imagine you reading all the hunting publications though and not seeing some of the news about anti gun legislation..you been hanging with Zumbo? Pick up a Guns and ammo or my favorite..shooting times and look at more than the cool gun pics or scantily clad female advertisements..in other words, don't READ it like a Playboy!
 
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