contemporary carver collector challenge..where do we go from here?

uncle mike pierce

Active member
I liked the dialogue Pat started with his questions and challenge regarding contemporary carvers and collectors. A lot of the response was similar to what would have been heard in the 1970's, 1980's and 1990's.

Carvers and collectors have grown tremendously since I started carving in 1974. Yet in some respects little has changed. Contests are still around, rules are written and amended to produce a particular result or limitation, and carvers still push the rules and disregard the limits in hopes of getting an edge. Collectors still, somewhat, judge carvers by how they place at competitions, and that can, somewhat, force carvers to contests as a way of competing in the marketplace. I believe that "grab at the gold ring" prompts a lot of the acrimony of years past regarding contest results and places.....when a judge's judgment of your decoy can hurt or help you sell that decoy and market yourself, a lot is riding on the difference between first and third place.

If we want to (as an independent group of decoy carvers) promote decoy carving as a diverse art form, decoy carving participation by everyone from professional artists to neophytes, and still judge/jury the art produced, we need to consider a baseline change to decoy contest formats. We need to add in an element of comparing each decoy to a standard of excellence and workmanship, not just comparing it to the other decoys that showed up to the contest.

Ballroom dance instructors and dance studios long ago resolved this problem of how to contest/judge competitors without discouraging those who did not "win". Their answer was not "everyone is a winner", but in some respects it was. Ballroom dancers are judged based on comparing their performance to a standard, not against the other dancers in their group. Dancers can be awarded anything from honorable mention to first place based on how they performed against the standard for the dance and their skill level. Five dancers in the same group can all get first place, or they could all get honorable mentions, based on the skills they displayed when judged against the standard. Additionally, each competitor gets to see the judges' scoring to find out why they got a 2nd place, and what the judges valued in their performance. Ballroom instructors and studios learned long ago that this style of judging and competition increased the number of competitors and the number of dance students, while still holding students to a standard and giving them pride in attaining a first place. Yes at each competition there are still head to head matchups for "best of show", but at the basic level, every dancer is judged against a standard.

Why can't at least some decoy competitions be set up this way? Why can't we judge decoys (for those who want to be judged) against a standard, awarding points for confirmation, attitude, accuracy of proportion and paint, and artistic merit, and deducting points for glaring errors in the same categories. In gunning competitions we can add in durability, and simplicity yet effectiveness of the paint scheme. Total the points awarded and each decoy will fall into a category based on points (1st, 2nd, 3rd, HM, or no award). The first place ribbon awarded your decoy is based on merit compared to a standard of excellence, not if it was the best decoy out of 15 pintails, or the best decoy out of 3 gadwalls, or the best goose (and only goose) in the category. In this system five mallards could all be awarded a first place ribbon, or all five could only get an HM, but the carver would understand why he or she was awarded the finish they got.

We can still put all the 1st place decoys in the tank for best of group (judged subjectively instead of on points from baseline judging), and the best of group can go for best of show (again, based on a subjective second judging, not on point totals from baseline group judging). Why throw out the points in the finals? To avoid the judges trying to pick the Best of show at the same time they are judging the groups. Let the judges compare the decoys to the standard for the group ribbons, then let them start over when picking best of division and best of show. When you get to that rarified level, there has to be a lot of subjectivity to the judging, as few of the decoys in the tank at that point should have basic anatomical or paint errors.........

But hey, I may be crazy wrong on this suggestion........just thoughts on a cold, northwoods morning from an old decoy carver who is ready for spring....................
 
Some good points made Mike. Personally I think its pitiful that some feel the need for a pat on the back just for participation from kids to adults. I'd also like to add that, in my area anyway, people are shying away from the "taxidermy grade" carvings and looking more into finding a carvers personal style. Granted there is a demand for both but I have seen a trend away from it. Maybe they just cost to much and I hang out with po folks, haha.
 
I for one Mike love the idea. My dogs are products of the very exact judging system, they are judged to a standard not against each other. There are many "tests" all over the country but no competetition against other dogs. However once year in Germany and here in the states there is are invitational type test where the dogs are judged against a standard and then ranked with a winner being declared. It doesn't really mean anything, other than your dog performed better than others that partiuclar day. These scores are used as part of a bigger package to determine if the breeding was successful and some basis for future breedings. There are three judges, the three must agree on a score for indivual catagories. The points are awarded 1-12, and have guidelines in how to award those points. The judges have to defend their decisons based on the guidelines, no a subjective like or dislike.

I think its a great idea for decoys as well, but classes and guidelines would have to be set up and people would need to be held accountable. They are not now and is one reason I don't enter many contests, but still love going to the shows. What is written in the rules is not being taken to heart in the judging. In my opinion the Ohio show is the worst for that, I see pics and read the rules and say no way! that should be allowed in.

Unforuntately my dog system is German and is sometimes difficult to get independent Americans to buy into such a system. With the decoy show circut mostly run by the good ole boy network it may be hard to persaude the powers to be change.
 
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One thing I would say is that a "standard" for a decoy could be all over the place. Is a standard decoy oversized or lifesize or a magnum. Dose a standard decoy have a keel or a pad weight, do they have to self right. I think this is what makes decoys so apealing, is there are no standards, but different styles. What I like in a decoy you might not. Every decoy I looked at in Strongsville will do the job it was design for, lure ducks into a spot.
Pete
 
a standard can cover lots of styles, again going to my dogs system, in feild search there are dogs that run at 200yards, some at 50yds thats a style difference, but that is not being judged. what is being judged willingness to find, mehodical, persitant. for example is that dog running around or is he looking for something, beleive me there is a difference. In decoys it woud be the same, size how its weighted mean nothing. So to your point it needs to lure ducks, so standards in a gunning class should be something like, practicatlity (raised wings, to thin of tails or bills, paint easy replicated by owner) simplicity, does the form represnt a duck, do colors represent a duck things like that. Obiviously there needs to be more than one class. These are these off top of my head, but it woud have to be vetted and more thought put into it.
 
Gunning class decoys should be just that.....gunners. Decoys that can't be fixed or repainted by the average hunter shouldn't be in a gunning class. That rule (that is on the books) should take care of most issues with that class. If the rules aren't going to be followed there is no use coming up with more rules. I shoot my fair share of ducks over my handmade decoys, the ducks seem to like them, I like them and a few others I've meet like them. Just my 2 cents.

Jim
 
I for one Mike love the idea. My dogs are products of the very exact judging system, they are judged to a standard not against each other. There are many "tests" all over the country but no competetition against other dogs. However once year in Germany and here in the states there is are invitational type test where the dogs are judged against a standard and then ranked with a winner being declared. It doesn't really mean anything, other than your dog performed better than others that partiuclar day. These scores are used as part of a bigger package to determine if the breeding was successful and some basis for future breedings. There are three judges, the three must agree on a score for indivual catagories. The points are awarded 1-12, and have guidelines in how to award those points. The judges have to defend their decisons based on the guidelines, no a subjective like or dislike.

I think its a great idea for decoys as well, but classes and guidelines would have to be set up and people would need to be held accountable. They are not now and is one reason I don't enter many contests, but still love going to the shows. What is written in the rules is not being taken to heart in the judging. In my opinion the Ohio show is the worst for that, I see pics and read the rules and say no way! that should be allowed in.

Unforuntately my dog system is German and is sometimes difficult to get independent Americans to buy into such a system. With the decoy show circut mostly run by the good ole boy network it may be hard to persaude the powers to be change.


Bill, I used to use the German system of judging Komorner Tumblers when we had a show. Like you mentioned it is a quality system that was the most exact we could use as judges when judging show pigeons.
As for decoy carvers, my likes are for those who view them as artistic and are willing to go out on the limb to do something a bit different.
Al
 
I'd agree with Pete here. Unfortunately, we're trying to standardize something that is subjective and, not objective thus, it's flawed.

I think it gets to the root of how you define a decoy. Merrium-Webster Dictionary defines the word decoy as "someone or something used to lure or lead another into a trap; especially : an artificial bird used to attract live birds within shot" So, the question becomes, are these "decoys" been used or truly intended to be used as decoys, ie luring live birds within gunshot?

Personally, if I were setting the rules, the first rule for any decoy in any contest would need to be hunted at least one season prior to competing. Not surprising, I am a traditionalist. And, althought this would be tough to validate, the decoy should have some moderate wear on it...

The other flaw is in the definition, it says "...used to attract live birds..." Judges are not live birds. They have biases, preferences, likes and dislikes. Ducks decoy for safety, hunger and rest not because one lure looks better than the other. Keep in mind, many of the decoys of our forefathers, whom we revere, their decoys would be the first decoys out of the tank by today's standards. Does that make their decoys a bad decoy? Absolutely not, for their decoys have lured hundreds, if not thousands of ducks within gunshot to their death, i.e, a true decoy...

Bottom-line is, I think decoy shows and contests bring alot to the craft. They give people purpose and excitement as we saw at Strongsville. However, we need to be careful to make a square peg into a round hole ie, a true, traditional gunner into a polished contest decoy. Two different blocks. I think it's good to know what kind of decoy you make and enjoy that...

For many of us that carve traditional gunners, we've already had our "decoy contests". They generally occur everyday between the months of September through January. Now, it's time for the contest carvers to have their fun...

Just my two cents... Pat
 
Gunning class decoys should be just that.....gunners. Decoys that can't be fixed or repainted by the average hunter shouldn't be in a gunning class. That rule (that is on the books) should take care of most issues with that class. If the rules aren't going to be followed there is no use coming up with more rules. I shoot my fair share of ducks over my handmade decoys, the ducks seem to like them, I like them and a few others I've meet like them. Just my 2 cents.

Jim


Jim

Interesiting you bring this up...I'm no master, but have painted a couple decoys. I'd say I couldn't repaint 90% or more of the decoys in the pool on sunday. If you take the true average duck hunter, it's more like 99%. But I was looking over the rules on the ODCCA site, and I can't find that clause any more. I think they took that out. If so, I think that is a semi-official sign that the hunting decoy contest that used to take place in the pool should be renamed Almost-IWCA in a Really Big Tank. I am a staunch supporter of the show, but it is no secret that I don't like the direction the pool has taken the last couple years. Entries are way down the last couple years at Ohio in all catagories. I don't think the community needs another catagory of fancy-pants floating decorative. There is a true shortage of contests featuring honest gunning stool.

Chuck
 
I know every bird I threw in the pool will be gunned this season and hopefully many more. I will continue to go to Ohio yearly and toss birds in the pool. Good thing is they won't get chlorine damage since they get yanked very quickly. It does not bother me one bit contests are not my reason to carve nor do they drive me to improve or conform. If I did not throw a bird in I would still go for the fellowship and the inspiration. This has been an excellent thread thank you
 
I'm fairly new to carving and have never been to a show so I really don't know how the judging works. But it occurs to me that if the judges couldn't talk with one another and scored on a points system and threw out the highest and lowest scores.Then added the scores together might be a way to go.Just a thought
 
Mike et al~

Once again, lots of useful perspectives.

It occurs to me that one reason I resist the conventional competitions - pitting one carver against another - but do like competing against a standard of excellence - is that it is a lot like hunting itself. I imagine that, for most of us, our satisfaction from any hunt has nothing to do with cheers or jeers from gunning partners and certainly not from tallies of dead birds, but rather, from how close any hunt comes to the "perfect hunts" we carry around in our hearts and minds - an amalgam of aesthetics and values and experiences we've collected, and sorted through, over a lifetime afield. No contest involving others' judgments can hold a candle to our own.

Pat~

Thanks for starting this discussion!

All the best,

SJS
 
Guys - Thanks to all who chimed in. It's good we grapple with such things. The future of what we do depends on it, good open, honest discussion. Much of what we are discussing centers around what we are going to leave the next generation. Thank you for caring enough to share...

Like a good family, we always need to be able to talk about it, the good, the bad and the ugly... Pat
 
I have enjoyed reading this thread; it has stirred some inner reflection within myself. I duck hunt for the beauty of the dawn, to witness the awakening of life, and to hear the wind whistling through the wings. I chose to carve my own decoys so that i may enjoy all of this and possibly convince a duck to try and land among the decoys i made.

Since i enjoy the history of things i decided to base my painting on older styles, meaning the simple gunning paintings of the early carvers (and several on this site who inspire me). Nothing fancy, just form and function.

Everyone continue carving with the knowledge that you are inspiring us aspiring carvers more than you may realize........
 
Interesiting you bring this up...I'm no master, but have painted a couple decoys. I'd say I couldn't repaint 90% or more of the decoys in the pool on sunday. If you take the true average duck hunter, it's more like 99%. But I was looking over the rules on the ODCCA site, and I can't find that clause any more. I think they took that out.

Chuck I happen to have the rules up on the ODCCA site. Your correct that is removed from the waterfowler set of rules. (pool singles) However this exsists on the Shooting Stool (pool rigs) rules.



**Decoys must be carved in traditional hunting decoy style-no detailing of fragile bills, necks, wing tips or tails. **No raised primaries, No carved details in bills, slight mandible separation will be permitted** STRICTLEY ENFORCED
Decoys must be painted in traditional hunting decoy style - brushing, ragging, stippling, combing, scratching, blending or burned cork. No feather definition other than outline will be allowed. No flocking will be permitted.
Decoy must be carved and painted so as to be easily duplicated to create a shooting rig of thirty-six or more decoys. **Birds should be painted in a manner so that any duck hunter can maintain its appearance from season to season**
Decoys themselves must be non-fouling and must be able to withstand the day to day rigors of hunting - careless handling, bagging, ice, heavy seas, taking shots, etc.


I too am a big supporter of the show and not trying to tear it down at all. But as Pat so eloquently states these discussions are important. I think that rule is important especially in the rigs. I do not think that rule is being given any consideration when judging.
 
long time in competition ... i understand what you want to tell ( with my poor english ) ...

I make decoys since over 30y now , all time for competition, in the most realistic time of this art ... never gunner...

For me the only way to compare it with a real duck .. a life duck.. , but over the year some judge dont know duck , some look only painting, some other the carving only , some the shape .. and few all together ... some like exagereted painting color scene , some like evolute design ( but lot of error in the shape ) ..

For me , my first look go on the shape , a malard do to look for a malard not a black , a teal GW is not a shape of a BW. Why : the shape can t change from arround the country but color do , how we can judge that ...

I stop competition in 2007 for 20% of tired of judge , and 80% of want to past to over that.. It the best think i made , why .. never made so quality decoy, dont carve for win .. carve for the look... and my decoys is better .

On my side , every carver made good job, for sure not the same decoy, not the same quality , not the same price ... why : not for the same customer or used.

Quality :hummmm : who's can tell my duck it better that your. for me it depending the eye to the person the see, and we dont see all the same thing. depending of what you know, observation, life ..

Competition vs $ of value of decoy: in late 80' compettion increse the value of a decoy, ribbon on decoy make money. Now on my side it change nothing. You can find ribbon or buy it every where , i remember to go to some show, win a ribbon and see some decoy ( few mouths later ) on sell with the same title .... but suppose to be only one???. since 2000' dont think my decoy have a better value with a ribbon, but best finish on a decoy can make a difference ( hunting or full detailed decoy ), and remember customer make the value not the carver ... after a few sell , you can find what it your value and begin to negociated

Anywhere you have human judging , you will find error, friend appreciation , preference ...

We are a lot of carver here , not all the same level ( level for what ... competition pffff ) ... but it art ... ART ..... hand made at the best.

Sorry hheheheh
 
Interesiting you bring this up...I'm no master, but have painted a couple decoys. I'd say I couldn't repaint 90% or more of the decoys in the pool on sunday. If you take the true average duck hunter, it's more like 99%. But I was looking over the rules on the ODCCA site, and I can't find that clause any more. I think they took that out.

Chuck I happen to have the rules up on the ODCCA site. Your correct that is removed from the waterfowler set of rules. (pool singles) However this exsists on the Shooting Stool (pool rigs) rules.



**Decoys must be carved in traditional hunting decoy style-no detailing of fragile bills, necks, wing tips or tails. **No raised primaries, No carved details in bills, slight mandible separation will be permitted** STRICTLEY ENFORCED
Decoys must be painted in traditional hunting decoy style - brushing, ragging, stippling, combing, scratching, blending or burned cork. No feather definition other than outline will be allowed. No flocking will be permitted.
Decoy must be carved and painted so as to be easily duplicated to create a shooting rig of thirty-six or more decoys. **Birds should be painted in a manner so that any duck hunter can maintain its appearance from season to season**
Decoys themselves must be non-fouling and must be able to withstand the day to day rigors of hunting - careless handling, bagging, ice, heavy seas, taking shots, etc.


I too am a big supporter of the show and not trying to tear it down at all. But as Pat so eloquently states these discussions are important. I think that rule is important especially in the rigs. I do not think that rule is being given any consideration when judging.


Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought at one time that phrase was used on both contests.

If I were doing the prejudging, it would have been a VERY short contest...and I would require an armed escort to make it out alive most likely. For as long as there have been rules to a decoy contest, there have been carvers trying to push the limits. I'm not there to compete the way some do, not that there isn't any excitement from getting a ribbon, but for me I'm really there to promote the craft. The last two years there had been more than one canvas rig in the pool, and that was very cool to me. I continue to look forward to the year were there would be 3 other canvas rigs placing higher than mine...that is my dream, that is why I continue to put rigs in the pool.

I pulled this line from just above what you quoted from the ODCCA site:
Decoys must be carved to accentuate decoying capabilities, not necessarily realistic qualities. Decoys will be judged on simplicity, practicality and durability.

To me, this should be the top line of all three pool contest's rules (don't forget the youth division)...sort of a mission statement if you will.

I look at this like constructive crisicism...like when someone post their first decoy they carved on the forum and says "what do you think?"...we could just say "good job, go make another dozen"... (just as crappy as the first)...or we could help them to make the next 12 each one a little better...Sometimes to actually be helpful, you have to come off like the bad guy.

Chuck
 
Personally, I disagree with the "any hunter" or "average hunter" rule. I would say the "average" hunter today replaces his plastics rather than repainting them, given my experience down here...or they just hunt them with faded/chipped paint. Further, as hunters, we have demanded more realistic plastic decoys than the "Flambomb", $30 per dozen aqua keels. The decoy companies gave us what we wanted, and I doubt many "average" hunters could maintain a flock of GHG puddle ducks. Divers? Maybe. Could an average hunter maintain a rig of cork black ducks?

The "average" hunter probably hasn't even held a wooden or cork gunning decoy unless it's happened to be at a DU or Delta banquet. And I don't mean that to be derogatory, even though it really sounds that way.

People who build boats, carve decoys, repaint their own decoys, turn calls, etc. are already above average. Okay, so we emphasize simple, but effective...more "traditional"...but some of the most collectible "traditional" decoys had paint that would disqualify them from the pool...and don't forget that many contests have rules that allow "traditional" painting techniques like ragging, combing, etc. that other rules would seem to cancel out...because an "average" or "any" hunter couldn't do that...

The gunning contest doesn't need to be "almost decorative", but it also doesn't need to be a Herter's paint job, either...should a carver who can make outstanding gunning birds with great paint relegate himself to IWCA or fully decorative birds? Or should he make gunners that don't reflect his style because he wants to compete?

I wish everyone would bring what they ACTUALLY gun over...If someone puts more effort into paint, but they are actually hunting it and not carving for the show or to be sold later, then so be it. The judges may see strong basic carving, a durable design and ding them for the paint being more complex...but the next bird with simple paint might have a more fragile bill, tail, neck, etc., and get deductions for other reasons...
 
I wish everyone would bring what they ACTUALLY gun over...If someone puts more effort into paint, but they are actually hunting it and not carving for the show or to be sold later, then so be it.



How about a competition among decoys that have been hunted at least one season or say a minimun of five actual hunts? No touch ups, no nothing, just bring pictures along to document the decoy in use and throw the decoy into the pool.
 
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