Damascus VS Twist Barrels

T

Tom Roberts

Well-known member
I was wondering if anyone knew if damascus barrels with the swirl pattern in the steel is stronger than twist or laminated steel with the spiral pattern? Seems alot of English made guns that are nitro proofed are of the true damascus type. I don't recall seeing any nitro proofed with twist steel. Also, I was wondering if damascus steel in good condition can handle pressures in the 8900PSI range? I know Double gun Journal touched on this subject before. I wish I had that info. to read myself. Does anybody out there have experience on this subject? I would like to have a shootable damascus barrel 12ga and have the opportunity to purchase one. What exactly should I look for?
 
Before you shoot any older shotgun with twist/Damascus barrels, have it inspected by a qualified smith. Period!! Might save you a bucket load of problems...
 
The articles you refer to are by Sherman Bell, but I don't have the issue numbers at hand. I can get it if nobody here knows. I don't know all the ins and outs and let my brother tell me what to beleive and what to do. However, you first need to have a qualified double gunsmith look over the barrels, not one that sees they are damascous and tells you not to shoot it, or black powder only. I shoot a few damascous guns, couple even with light to moderate pitting but I have had them looked over. Shells from places like RST http://www.rstshells.com/ are designed for these guns but with modern components and are what I use. Sherman and Tom Armbrust are the most knowledgeable people on the subject and my brother helps Tom quite a bit which is why I let him tell me what to use. Tom's contact info was posted in a thread a few days ago and for more info I would talk to him. you can check out this link as well. http://www.picturetrail.com/revdocdrew

good luck

bill
 
Tom,

I don't know a ton about this subject and would certainly take Bill's advice. The only tidbit of knowledge I can impart is that I have heard that you can send some damascus barreled guns back to the proof house in England and have them RE-proofed. Beyond that, if I had a dandy damascus SxS I would certain do some research and try to find the right loads - just as you are. We try to have an "old time" day at least once a season where we get out the fir hats, double guns, etc..
 
[font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]we get out the fir hats, double guns, etc..

Fir? ummm Douglas Fir? coated in epoxy and glass of course...........custom carved...perfect fit...and waterproof.
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Devil made me say it Pete...... I realize it was a typo.....but then again don't we build things out of fir and epoxy? ok my twisted sense of humor gets me in hot water...
 
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Most of the damascus barrels come out of the blackpowder era, and that's what I shoot with mine. I only load 70 gr of 2F, and 1 1/8oz lead shot, and fiber wads to make the crimp right for the case I'm using. This is target shooting only, so I limit the loads. I could probably shoot heavier loads safely, but the guns are still fairly tight, and I want to keep them that way. They shoot a little slower than smokeless, so you have to increase lead a little. It's also a real challenge to pick up the second bird on skeet when it comes popping out of the cloud of white smoke.
In dry weather I carry a spray bottle of water with a little soap in it, and squirt it down the barrels to keep the fouling soft.
I have a bunch of the black 2 3/4'' remington cases, and only load those cases with black powder, and any other color of case never drops into the chambers of my old girls.
Clean the gun very well as soon as you're done shooting, black powder is very corrosive, but disolves easily with soapy water. The cases I deprime, and drop in an onion sack, and run 'em through the washing machine when the wife isn't home, and let them drip dry. The brass bases get corroded fairly quick if you don't.
 
Tom, Damascus and twisted steel are the same the quality depends on the number and arangment of the layers of hard and soft steel. I shoot a joseph lang hammer gun 1883 that has been nitro profed, if the barrel are 30+ thousenth thicken about 12" up from the brech I would not hesitate to shoot low brass with it. you can reload some shells about 3 time the normal load measur 9" up from the brech with calipers tye the gun down to a tire with string on the triger stand away a fire then re meaure the barrels and is they have not expanded more then 001" its ok two use 1/3 that load. this basicly what a prof house do for $1000. good luck,Bill
 
Are you attaching the calibers to the barrel some how, or are you doing a before and after measurement with the caliber? Any particular kind of caliber I should use? Hope I'm not asking dumb questions but I want to do this right. I've never really got involved with this process before. Am I taking outside measurements of the barrels?.........Thanks for your help!..........Tom.
 
Tom,
First I would shoot it only if it was stamped for nitro-proof. Next I wouldn't shoot it unless I had a
VERY qualified gunsmith who is familiar with that type of gun check it out.
Calipers are ok for some uses but what you really want it a dial bore micrometer for the inside I.D.
in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. Then an outside micrometer for the O.D. of the barrells.
That will get you the barrell thickness. You will want to do that for the entire length of the barrells.
Yes pressure drops off after x", but my hands are worth being sure.

Is this a gun you already own or are you looking to purchase one?
 
Tom,

Further caution: Perry's post is accurate, but not real complete. Since pressure is not going to be [font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]linear[/font] to powered charge, you will need to find a published load that creates 3X your desired published load pressure. Simply throwing in 3X the amount of powder or shot isn't going to safely achieve your goal of "proofing" the gun.

Scott
 
I was looking to purchase one. I've always admired these old guns and the patterns of the steel. I've got a couple of opportunities to buy one and would love to have a shootable one. I've got a loading recipe for 2 3/4 inch shells of #4 ITX that generates 8900PSI and 1200fps. I know I'm opening up a can worms even considering this but thought I would explore it.
 
How does any of this change with respect to blackpowder, muzzleloading shot guns? I have a "need" for a straight stocked, side by side fowling piece to use when I sail out to the hunting grounds in my sneakbox ala Bill Perry's photo essay from last season.... been watching Gunbroker.com and have almost bid on a couple.... are the concerns the same for muzzleloading the older barrels? Any sources for shoot-able guns at reasonable prices? I can't spend a bunch on a gun that will not be used much, be carried in duck boat, and used in salt water....

Dave
 
Dave....Are you talking about an antique or a reproduction? I've had experience shooting ducks with a Pedersoli 12ga s x s. It would have to be an exceptionally good condition and thick barreled antique before I would shoot it. Most of those have been laying around so long, possibly improperly cleaned, and time slowly corroding in the microspaces between the metal seams of the damascus steel. Probably the same concerns I'm having to deal with in later produced shotguns.
 
8900 sounds like the top end of what the pressures should be, but again get a hold of Tom and he can steer you to a good recipe and what you want for pressures. I am not sure following Bill's advice is the best thing either, to me that should be left to the experts if you want a gun reproofed. Don't forget reproofing will weaken the barrels just a bit, beside being dangerous endeavor. None of my Damascous guns are nitro proofed, sherman articles I think have proven modern powders are fine in these guns as long as pressures are low and that the strength of damascous is really quite strong.

bill
 
If a gun with damascus barrels has been proofed for 1 1/4 oz, what kind of pressures are we talking about and does nitro powder of old compare to modern nitro powder in terms of pressures?......Appreciate any input.
 
This has been a real interesting thread, and I hope it continues. I'll also add the antiques I shoot have very clean bores for their age. Light rust is expected, but deep pits should yell ''wall hanger'' at you. Heavy, evenly rusted barrels will also raise pressure through friction.
Some of our ancestors reputedly liked a litttle rust or roughness in the bore, the concept was this prevented the wad from over running the shot when it left the barrel. I think this is probably wrong, the wad is going to be much more resistant to pushing through the air than a dense round shot would be. I'll bet they were seeing the results of higher pressure instead. I've heard this repeated by some shooters here in the present, but I don't buy it. I'd rather see bores slick as a whistle, you can always up your velosity if it's safe to do so by using more powder or less shot.
 
I can't answer that, what I do know is older loads tended to me much slower than our new shell fad of speed speed speed. For reasons beyond me speed does play a part in pressures, along with other things like primers, wads, powder, hulls and of course payload. My guess is yes, there is a difference but again would have to refer you to somone much more knowledgeable. I have a steel barreled 16ga sauer made in 1892, even with that gun I shoot low pressure RST shells. The gun is a very light and barrel wall thickness comes into play even though its steel barrels. So there are a lot of factors to consider when buying a vintage gun. What make guns are you looking at? What type of Damascous? game guns or heavier duck guns? I also know a guy who has shot 300+ low pressure steel shot loads through a 1894 remington damascous gun with no scratching or any other issue, so what these guns can take varies, knowing the gun and what your loading is real important. Additonally Tom, I think charges $5 a shell to pressure test your handloads so you know exactly what your reloading and shooting. I beleive he might be the only one in the country with a pressure gun that will do that. I have had him do that with factory loads for my duck gun(1928 Smith Long Range) and I have gotten quite a big difference in what the factory says and what the actual pressures are, so its something to consider. So with all that, having the gun looked over by good gunsmith and shooting the right loads is very important, but not unrealistic to find one to shoot.
 
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