Ducks Unlimited - steady retriever ideas

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Dick Sargeant

Well-known member
At the risk of starting another retriever discussion that could go viral.............I recommend the latest D U magazine that has an article on ways to help a retriever become steady without having to use a ton of force.

Essentially, the article advises adding a lot of obedience and steadiness early with a pups waiting for food and gradually training a pup or older dog to spend a lot of time waiting patiently and not retrieving...........a well timed retrieve at the end of a steady session becomes the reward for that behavior.

The author even gets into how you can train a retriever to put a priority on cripples.

He makes the point that we often inadvertently train a retriever for the opposite of steadiness with too much retrieving and very little waiting to be sent.

I have to admit that, of the 3 dogs I have trained and hunted, I was likely guilty of this. It's so much fun when they begin to take hand signals and hunt for a blind that I remember that I did not spend much time on steadiness and, when I did, it would require force with a lead or e collar.

I am looking forward to retriever # 4 in the next year or two as soon as I can work less. I am going to see what other stuff the author has and will give this idea a try. It just makes sense.

sarge
 
I'm no expert, but I found the video "Sound Beginnings" by Jackie Mertens to be extremely helpful with basic obedience and so forth for puppies. Making the puppy sit and wait for food is an excellent technique. My dog at the age of almost 5 will still sit until he is given the "OK" to eat. Another thing I do is occasionally on short retrieves; I make him sit and go pick it up myself. He learns not every bird is his to pick up, and learns he is not to go until released.
 
Another thing I do is occasionally on short retrieves; I make him sit and go pick it up myself. He learns not every bird is his to pick up, and learns he is not to go until released.
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Good tip, I will use that one with Coco. Thanks!
 
On my last dog I started picking up about half of the retrieves and having Lucy sit once I started hunting with 2 dogs in the blind. It helped a ton so she didn't think that everything that fell from the sky was hers. The big problem I had was as the season progressed I would always get lax about having her "follow the rules" .
 
I have always liked to incorporate drills at feeding time. All four labs sit and wait to be sent. I'll throw numbers out before their name ,fake names, names close to theirs with whom they hunt, Finn instead of Quinn .It reinforces they are to be sent when their name is called. I don't use the back command to their food that would toss the place on it's ear.
 
I found I have a book of his from 2000.........Retriever Training A Back-To-Basics-Approach..............will have to give it a re read !
 
my first serious trainning book.Trainning Retrievers to Handle. D.L. Walters. It is a great book from one of the ledgends
 
my first serious trainning book.Trainning Retrievers to Handle. D.L. Walters. It is a great book from one of the ledgends

Hi Kevin - like you, I used that and many others over the years. I just found the ideas that Milner has today to work for what I am looking for in the near future and looking back I can see how I made some of my dogs less steady with excessive retrieving and almost no waiting. I had my last dog a chocolate bitch pretty steady until I took her Manitoba and we shot snow geese for 5 days !
sarge
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I can't wait until you can hunt ducks without a "ton of force", then we will can be like flyfishermen.
 
It's aways interesting to read how a dog trainer/author with success has all the answers. If you just do "this or that".....like I do your dog will be fine.

I started training retrievers seriously about 12 years ago. When push comes to shove it's not the program, but the teacher that is the key. The question is "What if you can't do like they do?"

There are many excellent programs "out there" that work. When a person says thye are following Milner or Stewart styles or what some might refer to as the various Rex Carr approaches, what really matters is can you get into the dog's mind, communicate, be persistently fair and teach? It has been my experiece that you can't train a dog effectively if the focus of training is following directions.

You can give ten "teachers" the same text book and what they do may be surprisingly different in the real world.
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my first serious training book.Training Retrievers to Handle. D.L. Walters. It is a great book from one of the ledgends

Hi Kevin - like you, I used that and many others over the years. I just found the ideas that Milner has today to work for what I am looking for in the near future and looking back I can see how I made some of my dogs less steady with excessive retrieving and almost no waiting. I had my last dog a chocolate bitch pretty steady until I took her Manitoba and we shot snow geese for 5 days !
sarge
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Oh I agree,there are many fine recent example's . And getting a different perspective on a training method sometimes just helps you get it,making you a better trainer.I have made plently of mistakes training and have often needed to review. I also agree it's very important to be on the same page as your dog. Some are so gung ho you have to slow them down alittle. A steady dog really is the basis for all future sucess in training and hunting. Field hunting for Geese seems to blow all past training to hell doesn't it? My boy will sit like a statue in a boat or over water but bring him to a field And it's like I grabbed the wrong dog:) When i use to hunt test you always tended to play down your dog 's progress,you just never knew which dog will show up. I thought taining was going to beable to start early this spring but we are getting our 4th snow storm in a week so I guess I'll keep the ski's out.
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Many years ago one of the first books I bought about retriever training was by Milner. I still use his idea of the "no retrieve" in training my pups and older dogs.

As you can see in my avatar, three of those dogs will not be getting the next retrieve.
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When a person says thye are following Milner or Stewart styles or what some might refer to as the various Rex Carr approaches, what really matters is can you get into the dog's mind, communicate, be persistently fair and teach? It has been my experiece that you can't train a dog effectively if the focus of training is following directions.
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Fair enough. But, what are you teaching unless you're following a plan with set goals?

I'm not sure any of the "big names" claim that they have all the answers. But they present formats than amateurs can use as a general outline.

BTW Jim, I'm not being snarky. I really enjoy your posts and insight.

Sarge, as you know, I am currently using books from Milner and Vic Barlow as part of my program. I believe the greatest contribution from these author's is simple -- don't train a problem into the dog that you have to correct later. Both authors are proponents of obedience plus "non-retrieves" as the foundation of steadiness -- as you've described above.

Most folks will read that and say, "Well, no sh!t." But, the difference is that Milner and Barlow may not allow dogs to retrieve formal marks until they are a year old. Think about that -- a retriever that has had nothing but obedience training for the first twelve months of its life! From my experience, the results are profound.
 
....then we will can be like flyfishermen.
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I always envisioned you as someone who refers to ducks by their Latin name. Perhaps you've already reached the pinnacle of the sport?
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I'm sorry our relationship is so one-sided. I'll start paying attention to your posts so that I can envision things about you.

T
 
But, the difference is that Milner and Barlow may not allow dogs to retrieve formal marks until they are a year old. Think about that -- a retriever that has had nothing but obedience training for the first twelve months of its life! From my experience, the results are profound.
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What's his definition of "formal marks"?

This concept of nothing but obedience training for the first twelve months flys in direct opposition to what I think is the most important aspect of training - balance.

For me the "balanced package" means five factors are in concert from the time a dog reaches what I call the formal training stage (teething is over, mentally mature for his age and physically in shape). This is approximately around 6 months old (or little more). After that training evolves around balancing "the factors" - retrieving, "birdiness", control, focus and responsiveness.

The idea that one is emphasized over any other for any extended period is contrary to maintaining balance (for the way I train my pups).

Therefore, I question what profound means? I suppose profound is in the "eye of the beholder". Of course, A to Z is not often a singular path.

As for having a book, notes or program...the need for lesson plans should allow more time for a person to focus on being a teacher, but it has been my long lasting opinion "the list" or order in which to do things has nothing to do with teaching it. The often occuring mantra of the new trainer is "I set it up and he didn't do what he was suppose to do. Now what?

As a retired teacher, I have kind of a negative opinon of how many students worked their way through the system. All too often, the majority "make it" by following directions. Once this becomes entrenched, a lesson plan is meaningless. So now we have an adult that wants to train his dog that is very good at following directions. Sorry, but this bothers me to no end. Maybe, I'm getting too old.

The original topic was about the steady dog. The video I am posting up shows two of my older dogs doing some maintenance work last summer. Taffey was twelve years old and Kooly was eight when the drill was run.

We were reviewing our "steady expectations" in prepartion for the fall hunting season. The main message the dogs must have (the expectation) is 1) "Wherever I'm at is not a launching pad", 2 "Not every retrieve is mine" and 3) "I am available when you call upon me."

Both were FF, CC and went through a Carr based training program. They had lots of early puppy retrieves. I learned through them the need for keeping a better balance in the five factors and eventually restored it. The two younger dogs of mine have faired better since the balance concept was "invoked".

However, my personal opinion is they are much better dogs today for having been "engaged" early on.

All my dogs hunt the back waters of the Mississippi and "entertain" geese regularly. I like a dog that is a "handful" yet responsive and that can deal with advanced hunt tests.

You eventually may get what you earn, but you always get what you deserve.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW8L0-ozRPA
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