tim atkinson
New member
Feedback please. Thankyou
First Head
- Thread starter tim atkinson
- Start date
tim atkinson
New member
When bandsawing the head out I was a little unsure of my bandsaw skills so I didn't cut right on my lines and left some room for error. Every since then I have been trying to get it back down to size and have been having a heck of a time with it. Should I leave my cheeks alone on this and just make the top of the head thinner or do I need to slim down the entire head?
Randy Duda
Active member
Paint it and stick it on some cork! They get that close to see it - better not miss! Looks good.. much better on here to give feed back keep it up!
MLBob Furia
Well-known member
No opinion to offer, Tim; but just out of curiosity - is that a piece of mahogany?
Steve Sanford
Well-known member
Tim~
Your are certainly on the right track. Here's how I establish some of the correct widths on the head:
1) I bandsaw to the lines (profile and plan views) as close as I can.
2) I draw a centerline from the tip of the bill, up over the crown to the back of the neck; under throat, too.
3) I put Xs on the fattest part of the cheeks.
4) I draw a line along the bottom of the bill, at its edges.
5) I draw the brow width (widest part of head above the eye).
View attachment 14 - usual reference lines - cropped vs.jpg
(Picture is Black Duck - but principles are the same.)
Then, as I am carving, I do not "violate" (remove) any of these lines - they come off just before you are ready to use sandpaper.
6) For the brow, I carve straight down (drop a perpendicular as if you could hang a plumb bob on it) to the height of the eye/eye channel.
7) Once that is done, then, looking at the eye from the side, I draw in the new brow line, usually a little less than half the height from the eye to the crown.
8) Then, I hollow out the eye channel.
9) Last thing I do is round over the crown, from the new brow line up to the centerline on the crown. I do a lot of "shoeshining" or stropping with a very coarse (40 grit, 60 grit) belt over the crown, behind the neck, beneath the chin, even over the front part of the bill. (I screw a block into bottom of head so I can put it in a vise.) It goes a long way in maintaining/recovering symmetry.
10) Check plan view of bill tip - probably needs to be a little rounder.
This would all be much easier to explain with additional pictures....I'll take some more on next head I carve.
Keep up the great start!
SJS
Your are certainly on the right track. Here's how I establish some of the correct widths on the head:
1) I bandsaw to the lines (profile and plan views) as close as I can.
2) I draw a centerline from the tip of the bill, up over the crown to the back of the neck; under throat, too.
3) I put Xs on the fattest part of the cheeks.
4) I draw a line along the bottom of the bill, at its edges.
5) I draw the brow width (widest part of head above the eye).
View attachment 14 - usual reference lines - cropped vs.jpg
(Picture is Black Duck - but principles are the same.)
Then, as I am carving, I do not "violate" (remove) any of these lines - they come off just before you are ready to use sandpaper.
6) For the brow, I carve straight down (drop a perpendicular as if you could hang a plumb bob on it) to the height of the eye/eye channel.
7) Once that is done, then, looking at the eye from the side, I draw in the new brow line, usually a little less than half the height from the eye to the crown.
8) Then, I hollow out the eye channel.
9) Last thing I do is round over the crown, from the new brow line up to the centerline on the crown. I do a lot of "shoeshining" or stropping with a very coarse (40 grit, 60 grit) belt over the crown, behind the neck, beneath the chin, even over the front part of the bill. (I screw a block into bottom of head so I can put it in a vise.) It goes a long way in maintaining/recovering symmetry.
10) Check plan view of bill tip - probably needs to be a little rounder.
This would all be much easier to explain with additional pictures....I'll take some more on next head I carve.
Keep up the great start!
SJS
Vince Pagliaroli
Well-known member
Tim
For your first decoy head, yer doin' Good. Keep usin' that Pencil! Strong lines til the head is done, and don't be afraid to use that knife. Little slices add up to Big results.
That does look like Mahogany. I just finished shaping a Mahogany beak on a Avocet. Man I Love that stuff. Good luck, and keep at it..........
For your first decoy head, yer doin' Good. Keep usin' that Pencil! Strong lines til the head is done, and don't be afraid to use that knife. Little slices add up to Big results.
That does look like Mahogany. I just finished shaping a Mahogany beak on a Avocet. Man I Love that stuff. Good luck, and keep at it..........
tim atkinson
New member
Red Cedar is what it was sold to me as. I picked up three boards and this one had no knots in it but was a much deeper color then the other two so I thought it would work for head stock. The other two boards look white compared to this one. Thanks for all the pointers guys I really appreciate the feedback. I knew very early on that I had made more work for myself by not cutting on my lines with the bandsaw but thats what learning is all about I guess. Thanks again.
Tim
Tim
Randy Duda
Active member
keep posting Tim,
I would like to see the final product as well!
I would like to see the final product as well!
tim atkinson
New member
Definately a gunner. My goal is to have my aquapod purchased and a dozen of these gunners ready to go by next fall. I appreciate the insight and compliments guys and I will keep updating as more work is done. Great site.
Tim
Tim
Capt Rich Geminski
Well-known member
Mark your first bird. Later you will enjoy looking at your progress. Probably put away later for posterity...
tim atkinson
New member
Did some more work on it last night. I took some more off the top but was a little sqeemish diving into those cheeks. I took some more off from around the cheeks giving them a little more definition. I tried to remove some wood from the top back portion of the head to give the more pronounced point that the canvasback has on top of their head but I'm not totally sold that I took off enough. I did some work on the bill rounding out the end and giving a little defintion to where the bill meets the head and removed some under the neck becuase my eye setting did not seem to match up with the neck. Let me know your thoughts. Tim
Steve Sanford
Well-known member
Tim~
Excellent! Really amazing for a first bird!
Now you're at a point where you just have to decide how far you want to go. Obviously, it's fine as is for a gunner - ready to sand and seal. But, if you want to go a little further (as many of us do, just for our own satisfaction), here are a few thoughts - image below is a Can I did this winter as a decorative - "mantelpiece" bird - I lightened it up so you can see the contours on the bill and around the eye a bit better (and, I exaggerated the "nose" on this Can for artistic reasons).
View attachment Canvasback Closeup - 28 January 2013 - vs.jpg
1) Bill: The bill is somewhat concave between the processes that join the top of the face and the edge of the bill, around the nostrils. Just hollow this out - probably removing about 1/8" of cedar. Then redraw the nostrils. I usually put mine in with a burner. I used to drill them but not a good idea on working birds because water can lodge in there and it can weaken the bill.
2) There a lots of ways to do the eyes. You putting eyes in? I buy all my eyes from Van Dykes Taxidermy Supply. For a Can, I'd use 10 mm Red Pinpoint Pupil (They call it T1PP, item # BS-100624). As an aside, I usually bore the eyeholes to their full depth BEFORE I saw the head out. This gives me another reference dimension while I'm carving. Nevertheless, bore them out with a 7/16 bit (I use a brad tipped bit) or enlarge them with a Dremel tool.
3) I then use the tip of my blade (I carve the whole head with an X-acto blade # 22) to make a "pit" around the eye opening so the eye has a deep-set look. You can drive yourself crazy with all the different looks that very subtle carving can make. And, there's the whole issue of eyelids. I just bring the area around the eye up tight to it but do not carve eyelids (although I did in my younger years....)
4) I recommend doing the final sanding of the head before you install the eyes. I work down to 80 or 100 grit for gunners; I might go to 150 on the bill for two reasons: it's a harder surface so it's OK if it shines ultimately and I do not want to take off too much wood with the sandpaper.
5) Geoff Vine had a nice tutorial recently on installing eyes. I just use Elmers Wood Filler (it's water-soluble), filling the hole then pushing the eye into it. I use the eraser on the end of a pencil to push it in. Basically, you put them in deep enough so that you cannot see them when looking directly down on the head, but almost.... Then, I use a wet paintbrush to fair the filler into the surrounding wood.
6) Once the eyes are set and fully cured, sand VERY carefully near the eyes (150 grit) and then seal the wood. I use spar varnish on gunning birds.
Will your bodies be wood? cork? foam?
Hope this helps,
SJS
Excellent! Really amazing for a first bird!
Now you're at a point where you just have to decide how far you want to go. Obviously, it's fine as is for a gunner - ready to sand and seal. But, if you want to go a little further (as many of us do, just for our own satisfaction), here are a few thoughts - image below is a Can I did this winter as a decorative - "mantelpiece" bird - I lightened it up so you can see the contours on the bill and around the eye a bit better (and, I exaggerated the "nose" on this Can for artistic reasons).
View attachment Canvasback Closeup - 28 January 2013 - vs.jpg
1) Bill: The bill is somewhat concave between the processes that join the top of the face and the edge of the bill, around the nostrils. Just hollow this out - probably removing about 1/8" of cedar. Then redraw the nostrils. I usually put mine in with a burner. I used to drill them but not a good idea on working birds because water can lodge in there and it can weaken the bill.
2) There a lots of ways to do the eyes. You putting eyes in? I buy all my eyes from Van Dykes Taxidermy Supply. For a Can, I'd use 10 mm Red Pinpoint Pupil (They call it T1PP, item # BS-100624). As an aside, I usually bore the eyeholes to their full depth BEFORE I saw the head out. This gives me another reference dimension while I'm carving. Nevertheless, bore them out with a 7/16 bit (I use a brad tipped bit) or enlarge them with a Dremel tool.
3) I then use the tip of my blade (I carve the whole head with an X-acto blade # 22) to make a "pit" around the eye opening so the eye has a deep-set look. You can drive yourself crazy with all the different looks that very subtle carving can make. And, there's the whole issue of eyelids. I just bring the area around the eye up tight to it but do not carve eyelids (although I did in my younger years....)
4) I recommend doing the final sanding of the head before you install the eyes. I work down to 80 or 100 grit for gunners; I might go to 150 on the bill for two reasons: it's a harder surface so it's OK if it shines ultimately and I do not want to take off too much wood with the sandpaper.
5) Geoff Vine had a nice tutorial recently on installing eyes. I just use Elmers Wood Filler (it's water-soluble), filling the hole then pushing the eye into it. I use the eraser on the end of a pencil to push it in. Basically, you put them in deep enough so that you cannot see them when looking directly down on the head, but almost.... Then, I use a wet paintbrush to fair the filler into the surrounding wood.
6) Once the eyes are set and fully cured, sand VERY carefully near the eyes (150 grit) and then seal the wood. I use spar varnish on gunning birds.
Will your bodies be wood? cork? foam?
Hope this helps,
SJS
tim atkinson
New member
I am planning on putting eyes in the bird. I was going to do the whole bird in cedar. I have 2x8 boards that I was planning on laminating together tonight. I still have a few more things to buy such as sealer, paints, wood filler for the eyes. I saw a tutorial where a guy took half round clear glass beads and painted the backside and they seemed to turn out quite nice. I thought this application would be good for my early birds and with the ability to purchase 200 sets of eyes for 2 bucks I don't think I can go wrong. I have the beads already and I did order 10mm so the sizing should be right. I did have a question about putting my boards together for the body because I do want to hollow the bird out. I'm going to put three boards together which should give me about 5.5inches of height to work with. Should I laminate the top two boards together and put a screw through the bottom board so it can be removed later for easier hollowing? I'm not sure on the best process for this. Also my bandsaw cannot handle an eight inch board for when I saw out the top profile of the body. My thought is that I laminate and the saw the whole thing in half and saw out my two halves and then laminate them back together. Is there a better way to accomplish this? Thanks Tim
Steve Sanford
Well-known member
Tim~
Here's how I would approach it:
View attachment Atkinson body - small.jpg
Don't worry about sawing out the profile on the bandsaw (although it's better and someday I'm sure you'll have a nice, deep saw...). It'll be a bit more work but better than sawing the bird sagitally (down its centerline) - that can lead to leaks, etc later on.
Cut the 3 pieces only as long as they need to be (this makes sense even if you did have a big saw). Then stack them according to your pattern. If you have a jigsaw (sabre saw), might as well cut out most of the middle board before glueing. Similarly, if you have a drill press and Forstner bit, might as well hollow out the bottom board. Leave at least 3/4" around edges and plenty near the tail; leave at least 1/2" thickness in bottom.
To shape body, I temporarily screw a cleat (1x2x10) to the bottom so I can hold it in a vise. I use a nice sharp drawknife, a really coarse rasp, and a Stanley Surform (the long, flat file type) to do 95% of my shaping. Note: By laminating the body, the glue will tend to dull your drawknife.
Temporarily screwing the bottom board (C) to the middle board (B) makes a lot of sense.
Have fun!
SJS
Here's how I would approach it:
View attachment Atkinson body - small.jpg
Don't worry about sawing out the profile on the bandsaw (although it's better and someday I'm sure you'll have a nice, deep saw...). It'll be a bit more work but better than sawing the bird sagitally (down its centerline) - that can lead to leaks, etc later on.
Cut the 3 pieces only as long as they need to be (this makes sense even if you did have a big saw). Then stack them according to your pattern. If you have a jigsaw (sabre saw), might as well cut out most of the middle board before glueing. Similarly, if you have a drill press and Forstner bit, might as well hollow out the bottom board. Leave at least 3/4" around edges and plenty near the tail; leave at least 1/2" thickness in bottom.
To shape body, I temporarily screw a cleat (1x2x10) to the bottom so I can hold it in a vise. I use a nice sharp drawknife, a really coarse rasp, and a Stanley Surform (the long, flat file type) to do 95% of my shaping. Note: By laminating the body, the glue will tend to dull your drawknife.
Temporarily screwing the bottom board (C) to the middle board (B) makes a lot of sense.
Have fun!
SJS
uncle mike pierce
Active member
Tim:
I am impressed with what you can do on a first effort. You do have some problem areas developing on the head in terms of the bill shape and bill to head connection. To that end, I would strongly suggest that you develop your understanding of the head anatomy before you try to do too detailed a head carving or put too much detail in the bill. A lot of the heads on older decoys had good form when viewed from the side and were just rounded nicely. They had little if any eye groove, and little bill separation from the cheeks. If back up and you start carving that way, and on each succeeding head add details as you understand those details, you will probably progress further, faster, than if you try to do everything at once on your first six heads.
More importantly, what you really need, rather than input from me, is to get input from a qualified, knowlegeable, live tutor who can work with you during the process of the head and decoy. You also need some good reference books on carving, along with some good reference photos of the specie you are carving. If you cannot find a live tutor in your area, at least with reference materials and some good "how to" books you can self critique and fix problems as they develop. There are also some good DVD's and Cd's.
If you can find the old book Wildlife in Wood by Dick Lemaster, he goes over duck proportions and anatomy. Or call Willie McDonald and get his recommendations for a current author and books, DVD's, Cd's that can give you the same knowledge. Stop carving and read the book/watch the DVD's until you understand how ducks are put together. If you wanted to build a house, boat, or even a small tool shed, you just wouldn't buy some lumber and start cutting and hammering, you'd do some research, buy or draw a plan, study the plan, and maybe even make a model of the project before making it.
Once you understand the basics of duck proportion and anatomy, instead of looking at a picture and scratching your head, you will have much more confidence in carving the head and every other part of the decoy. It is scary to take wood off, not knowing if you are going to ruin what looks pretty okay at this stage. If you understand head anatomy, and have a live coach there to show you it is okay, you can make much faster progress. To give you a reference, I can rough out a head (from a blank, cut from two views like Steve showed) in about 20 minutes, including a rough sanding job on it. And I am not a talented carver as compared to a lot of the really good ones on this site. But, I know where to take wood off, what to leave on, and what proportions I want to end up with. There is no head scratching. My time carving is spent removing wood from where I know it needs to come off.
Another option, if you want to just jump in a carve using a trial and error method is to consider carving some heads (and full decoys) in high density insulation foam using a rasp and sandpaper to remove material and establish shape. They will come down fast and you can experiment to get the look you want. If you have any friends who are building contractors, you can get scraps of insulation foam (styro, not the bead type) for nothing. I am currently experimenting with this material as a way of teaching youth and adult carvers the joy of making their own decoys without them having to invest in costly materials or expensive tools in order to complete a decoy in a short period of time and also be able to gun over it.
If you were close to where I live, I'd offer to help you, but I do not know your location....... But whatever your location, I am sure you can find a carving member(s) on this site who will help you get started right..........
I am impressed with what you can do on a first effort. You do have some problem areas developing on the head in terms of the bill shape and bill to head connection. To that end, I would strongly suggest that you develop your understanding of the head anatomy before you try to do too detailed a head carving or put too much detail in the bill. A lot of the heads on older decoys had good form when viewed from the side and were just rounded nicely. They had little if any eye groove, and little bill separation from the cheeks. If back up and you start carving that way, and on each succeeding head add details as you understand those details, you will probably progress further, faster, than if you try to do everything at once on your first six heads.
More importantly, what you really need, rather than input from me, is to get input from a qualified, knowlegeable, live tutor who can work with you during the process of the head and decoy. You also need some good reference books on carving, along with some good reference photos of the specie you are carving. If you cannot find a live tutor in your area, at least with reference materials and some good "how to" books you can self critique and fix problems as they develop. There are also some good DVD's and Cd's.
If you can find the old book Wildlife in Wood by Dick Lemaster, he goes over duck proportions and anatomy. Or call Willie McDonald and get his recommendations for a current author and books, DVD's, Cd's that can give you the same knowledge. Stop carving and read the book/watch the DVD's until you understand how ducks are put together. If you wanted to build a house, boat, or even a small tool shed, you just wouldn't buy some lumber and start cutting and hammering, you'd do some research, buy or draw a plan, study the plan, and maybe even make a model of the project before making it.
Once you understand the basics of duck proportion and anatomy, instead of looking at a picture and scratching your head, you will have much more confidence in carving the head and every other part of the decoy. It is scary to take wood off, not knowing if you are going to ruin what looks pretty okay at this stage. If you understand head anatomy, and have a live coach there to show you it is okay, you can make much faster progress. To give you a reference, I can rough out a head (from a blank, cut from two views like Steve showed) in about 20 minutes, including a rough sanding job on it. And I am not a talented carver as compared to a lot of the really good ones on this site. But, I know where to take wood off, what to leave on, and what proportions I want to end up with. There is no head scratching. My time carving is spent removing wood from where I know it needs to come off.
Another option, if you want to just jump in a carve using a trial and error method is to consider carving some heads (and full decoys) in high density insulation foam using a rasp and sandpaper to remove material and establish shape. They will come down fast and you can experiment to get the look you want. If you have any friends who are building contractors, you can get scraps of insulation foam (styro, not the bead type) for nothing. I am currently experimenting with this material as a way of teaching youth and adult carvers the joy of making their own decoys without them having to invest in costly materials or expensive tools in order to complete a decoy in a short period of time and also be able to gun over it.
If you were close to where I live, I'd offer to help you, but I do not know your location....... But whatever your location, I am sure you can find a carving member(s) on this site who will help you get started right..........
MLBob Furia
Well-known member
Tim,
Actually, the drop off on the the neck which is behind behind the cheek does not have that defined groove you added. It's usually a stright drop - especially in a Can. Pretty common mistake. It is defined in the front (where the actual "cheek" of a duck would be), but pretty much disappears as you go back in the area below where the ear coverts are, unless the bird has its head cocked down at a pretty severe angle (ie: twisted and preening). The bird as posted in your first set of pictures was more accurate in that area.
Take a look at how Steve has shaped that area in the picture of the can decoy he posted.
I tried to find some shots that illustrate what I'm talking about:
Here, even in a Can with its neck stretched high, that area below the ear covet drops in a straight line
View attachment Canvasback_002.jpg
Again, see the rearmost part? If we had the head on shot here that segment would even be wider than the cheek segment ahead of it. Part of the reason you hear that "bull-necked" Canvasback reference:
View attachment canvasback.jpg
You do need to lower the eye channel toward the front, sweeping it more toward the center of the bill
View attachment Cocan7.JPG