Gifting game
- Thread starter rfberan
- Start date
rfberan said:
rfberan said:
Not generally true, but there are some circumstances where they may search without a warrant when police could not. This link is the USFW guidance for their officers, there's certainly room to interpret the restrictions on searches.
https://www.fws.gov/policy/445fw1.html#section17
Most states also have guidance for their wardens. What I have read regarding warrantless searches usually pertains to vehicles, trailers and hunting camps, not permanent residences.
Vince Pagliaroli
Well-known member
Over many years, many waterfowl hunts, in many different places. The freezers & frigs have been searched & checked by state, federal, and provincial wildlife officers. So far, so good...
No search warrant needed. Were the birds ARE, alive and dead is where they can, and will go. That is part of their job, and one that does need to be done. This applies to your vehicle as well. If your not prepared for that, then it is on you.
If your somewhere that the hunting is good, expect it.
Some state wildlife agencies have had to change some search policies, due to court actions. When you get into federal, provincial ,and officers being police not just wildlife officers, things can change.
Bottom line is. If folks are doing what they should not be doing, there are ways to try to prevent it.
my 2 cents
I've always heard the "don't need a warrant" nonsense, not exactly true..They can not enter your domicile without a warrant, that would be an illegal search and seizure protected by whatever amendment, Game officers included, Of course if you give them permission then all bets are off.
People say "if you have nothing to hide, whats the problem?"
Thats not the point, it protects you from unscrupulous, your guilty cause I say you are, officers, that would/ could plant evidence, harass you or your family, and trump up charges .
Your game officers are honest?, great!
Not all of them are. Thats why police depts have an internal affairs division.
People say "if you have nothing to hide, whats the problem?"
Thats not the point, it protects you from unscrupulous, your guilty cause I say you are, officers, that would/ could plant evidence, harass you or your family, and trump up charges .
Your game officers are honest?, great!
Not all of them are. Thats why police depts have an internal affairs division.
Troy Fields
Well-known member
"I read an interesting account from a hunter who was cited for excessive possession because of the sausage he had in the freezer along with his 3 daily bag limits of ducks. "
My take on that is if you have a fish and game officer looking in your freezer, they have been watching you for a while.
My own take on this, my labels read, I Troy Fields gift to "John Smith", number of and species ID, my license number, date shot and location shot.
[font=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]I mail (possess) a fair amount of client birds and to cover my own backside we use the same info above, only reversed, and they are not "gifting" them to me, I am simply holding their possession until mailed. Probably a whole different court case but so far all my run ins with CEO's have been good, some more thorough than others, but all professional and within their limits.[/font]
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[font=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Think about bird taxidermists who have freezers full of birds, they use the same info to protect themselves and still allow for their own personal daily/possession limits.[/font]
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My take on that is if you have a fish and game officer looking in your freezer, they have been watching you for a while.
My own take on this, my labels read, I Troy Fields gift to "John Smith", number of and species ID, my license number, date shot and location shot.
[font=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]I mail (possess) a fair amount of client birds and to cover my own backside we use the same info above, only reversed, and they are not "gifting" them to me, I am simply holding their possession until mailed. Probably a whole different court case but so far all my run ins with CEO's have been good, some more thorough than others, but all professional and within their limits.[/font]
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[font=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Think about bird taxidermists who have freezers full of birds, they use the same info to protect themselves and still allow for their own personal daily/possession limits.[/font]
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I think most topics have been covered while I was off hunting in Montana and Alberta but to summarize I?ll make a couple of comments about USFWS regulations from my experience. I wasn't a LE agent so I was not responsible for interpreting or enforcing the regulations, just setting the seasons. I am not a lawyer either so these are really just my opinions based on my understanding of the regulations.
There is a difference between field possession limit and overall possession limit. But if your home freezer is being searched you've got much bigger problems. The average hunter doesn't need to worry about an agent showing up at their house and asking to see what is in the freezer. If there are agents at the door they will have search warrants and and therefore a judge?s concurrence that there is probable cause of likely felony violations. This regulation goes back to the days of market hunting and looking for barrrels of dead ducks that will be sold.
There is a difference between the identification requirements domestically and traveling internationally. An attached wing is required internationally while an attached wing OR head is required domestically.
Gifting is also different. You can gift birds within the US but you are not allowed to import birds into the US gifted to you while hunting in a different country. Tod posted the required Federal requirements for tagging. So if you gift people migratory birds tag them. If you are concerned your home freezer might be searched, then gift and tag possession limits to your wive and kids and anyone else in the family. I wouldn't bother with tagging the sausage. Remember selling or bartering migratory birds and their parts are illegal so don't be seeing that sausage or jerky.
The possession regulations are not written for ease of reading unfortunately. Yes, in some cases, they are old and antiquated but LE refused to rewrite them during my tenure mainly because they viewed it as low priority.
With regards to federally protected migratory game birds, states can be more restrictive than Federal regulations but can not be more lenient or liberal. So if the state regulations require something greater than the Federal tagging or gifting even bag limit, you must abide by those state's regulations. Yes there are states that occasionally will have bag limits more restrictive than Federal bag limits.
Mark, you can only harvest one limit per day in all combined states. You could have up to your possession limit (3 daily bag limits) while in the field. So, for example, if you shot a limit in Wisconsin on Monday, then another limit in Iowa on Tuesday and then a limit in Minnesota on your way home on Wednesday, you have your Federal field possession limit. If Minnesota doesn't allow a possession limit of 3 times the daily bad limit then you are in violation of the state law but not Federal law. You can not harvest more than one bag limit per day. So if you were hunting the Mississippi River, you can't shoot limits in both states during the same day. The limit that would apply is the state where you are physically being checked and the license that authorizes your hunting there.
I'll stress again the IMPORTATION regulations are different from domestic regulations. You can not import processed migratory game bird meat. No sausage, jerky, gumbo or whatever even if all birds were lawfully taken by Canadian regulations.
Regarding probable cause, if a Federal agent sees you hunting (fact) and suspects that you may have violated a regulation or sees you leaving a hunting situation with evidence of hunting (another fact) and suspects you may have violated a regulation. Searches are based on probable cause and whether there is a reasonable expectation of privacy. Hunting outdoors does not meet the objectively reasonable expectation of privacy that would happen at your dwelling. Additionally, in buying a hunting license and duck stamp, you agree to show licenses and any harvested wildlife to agents when requested.
Here is the Federal law regarding search and seizure under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act.
706. Arrests; search warrants
Any employee of the Department of the Interior authorized by the Secretary of the Interior to enforce the provisions of this subchapter shall have power, without warrant, to arrest any person committing a violation of this subchapter in his presence or view and to take such person immediately for examination or trial before an officer or court of competent jurisdiction; shall have power to execute any warrant or other process issued by an officer or court of competent jurisdiction for the enforcement of the provisions of this subchapter; and shall have authority, with a search warrant, to search any place. The several judges of the courts established under the laws of the United States, and United States magistrate judges may, within their respective jurisdictions, upon proper oath or affirmation showing probable cause, issue warrants in all such cases. All birds, or parts, nests, or eggs thereof, captured, killed, taken, sold or offered for sale, bartered or offered for barter, purchased, shipped, transported, carried, imported, exported, or possessed contrary to the provisions of this subchapter or of any regulation prescribed thereunder shall, when found, be seized and, upon conviction of the offender or upon judgment of a court of the United States that the same were captured, killed, taken, sold or offered for sale, bartered or offered for barter, purchased, shipped, transported, carried, imported, exported, or possessed contrary to the provisions of this subchapter or of any regulation prescribed thereunder, shall be forfeited to the United States and disposed of by the Secretary of the Interior in such manner as he deems appropriate.
(July 3, 1918, ch. 128, ?5, 40 Stat. 756 ; 1939 Reorg. Plan No. II, ?4(f), eff. July 1, 1939, 4 F.R. 2731, 53 Stat. 1433; Pub. L. 90?578, title IV, ?402(b)(2), Oct. 17, 1968, 82 Stat. 1118 ; Pub. L. 95?616, ?3(h)(1), Nov. 8, 1978, 92 Stat. 3111 ; Pub. L. 101?650, title III, ?321, Dec. 1, 1990, 104 Stat. 5117 .)
Amendments
1978-Pub. L. 95?616 made provisions respecting seizures and judgment of court applicable to birds, or parts, nests, or eggs sold or offered for sale, bartered or offered for barter, purchased, imported and exported and substituted "any regulation prescribed thereunder" in two places for "any regulations made pursuant thereto" and "any regulation made pursuant thereto" and provision for disposition of the birds, etc., by Secretary of the Interior in such manner as he deems appropriate for prior provision for such disposition as directed by court having jurisdiction.
There is a difference between field possession limit and overall possession limit. But if your home freezer is being searched you've got much bigger problems. The average hunter doesn't need to worry about an agent showing up at their house and asking to see what is in the freezer. If there are agents at the door they will have search warrants and and therefore a judge?s concurrence that there is probable cause of likely felony violations. This regulation goes back to the days of market hunting and looking for barrrels of dead ducks that will be sold.
There is a difference between the identification requirements domestically and traveling internationally. An attached wing is required internationally while an attached wing OR head is required domestically.
Gifting is also different. You can gift birds within the US but you are not allowed to import birds into the US gifted to you while hunting in a different country. Tod posted the required Federal requirements for tagging. So if you gift people migratory birds tag them. If you are concerned your home freezer might be searched, then gift and tag possession limits to your wive and kids and anyone else in the family. I wouldn't bother with tagging the sausage. Remember selling or bartering migratory birds and their parts are illegal so don't be seeing that sausage or jerky.
The possession regulations are not written for ease of reading unfortunately. Yes, in some cases, they are old and antiquated but LE refused to rewrite them during my tenure mainly because they viewed it as low priority.
With regards to federally protected migratory game birds, states can be more restrictive than Federal regulations but can not be more lenient or liberal. So if the state regulations require something greater than the Federal tagging or gifting even bag limit, you must abide by those state's regulations. Yes there are states that occasionally will have bag limits more restrictive than Federal bag limits.
Mark, you can only harvest one limit per day in all combined states. You could have up to your possession limit (3 daily bag limits) while in the field. So, for example, if you shot a limit in Wisconsin on Monday, then another limit in Iowa on Tuesday and then a limit in Minnesota on your way home on Wednesday, you have your Federal field possession limit. If Minnesota doesn't allow a possession limit of 3 times the daily bad limit then you are in violation of the state law but not Federal law. You can not harvest more than one bag limit per day. So if you were hunting the Mississippi River, you can't shoot limits in both states during the same day. The limit that would apply is the state where you are physically being checked and the license that authorizes your hunting there.
I'll stress again the IMPORTATION regulations are different from domestic regulations. You can not import processed migratory game bird meat. No sausage, jerky, gumbo or whatever even if all birds were lawfully taken by Canadian regulations.
Regarding probable cause, if a Federal agent sees you hunting (fact) and suspects that you may have violated a regulation or sees you leaving a hunting situation with evidence of hunting (another fact) and suspects you may have violated a regulation. Searches are based on probable cause and whether there is a reasonable expectation of privacy. Hunting outdoors does not meet the objectively reasonable expectation of privacy that would happen at your dwelling. Additionally, in buying a hunting license and duck stamp, you agree to show licenses and any harvested wildlife to agents when requested.
Here is the Federal law regarding search and seizure under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act.
706. Arrests; search warrants
Any employee of the Department of the Interior authorized by the Secretary of the Interior to enforce the provisions of this subchapter shall have power, without warrant, to arrest any person committing a violation of this subchapter in his presence or view and to take such person immediately for examination or trial before an officer or court of competent jurisdiction; shall have power to execute any warrant or other process issued by an officer or court of competent jurisdiction for the enforcement of the provisions of this subchapter; and shall have authority, with a search warrant, to search any place. The several judges of the courts established under the laws of the United States, and United States magistrate judges may, within their respective jurisdictions, upon proper oath or affirmation showing probable cause, issue warrants in all such cases. All birds, or parts, nests, or eggs thereof, captured, killed, taken, sold or offered for sale, bartered or offered for barter, purchased, shipped, transported, carried, imported, exported, or possessed contrary to the provisions of this subchapter or of any regulation prescribed thereunder shall, when found, be seized and, upon conviction of the offender or upon judgment of a court of the United States that the same were captured, killed, taken, sold or offered for sale, bartered or offered for barter, purchased, shipped, transported, carried, imported, exported, or possessed contrary to the provisions of this subchapter or of any regulation prescribed thereunder, shall be forfeited to the United States and disposed of by the Secretary of the Interior in such manner as he deems appropriate.
(July 3, 1918, ch. 128, ?5, 40 Stat. 756 ; 1939 Reorg. Plan No. II, ?4(f), eff. July 1, 1939, 4 F.R. 2731, 53 Stat. 1433; Pub. L. 90?578, title IV, ?402(b)(2), Oct. 17, 1968, 82 Stat. 1118 ; Pub. L. 95?616, ?3(h)(1), Nov. 8, 1978, 92 Stat. 3111 ; Pub. L. 101?650, title III, ?321, Dec. 1, 1990, 104 Stat. 5117 .)
Amendments
1978-Pub. L. 95?616 made provisions respecting seizures and judgment of court applicable to birds, or parts, nests, or eggs sold or offered for sale, bartered or offered for barter, purchased, imported and exported and substituted "any regulation prescribed thereunder" in two places for "any regulations made pursuant thereto" and "any regulation made pursuant thereto" and provision for disposition of the birds, etc., by Secretary of the Interior in such manner as he deems appropriate for prior provision for such disposition as directed by court having jurisdiction.
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Vince Pagliaroli
Well-known member
Brad,
Thank You Very Much For The Info.
When I wrote about freezers and frigs being searched. All were at places waterfowl hunters stayed while hunting. The owners of those places had agreements with the wildlife officers, state, federal, and provincial. The owners live in the area all year long, hunters are guests. Good guests can stay and hunt again, bad guests not so.
Vehicle searches, road blocks and game checks in Canada and some western states were very good and left nothing unchecked, including plugs in shotguns for waterfowl. Checks for upland birds took place as well.
When you enter the USA or Canada, and are told "pull over there and empty everything". If ya wanna say no, you will be in for a long day or night. It's yer call, yer $$$$$, and yer time.
As already stated wildlife officers do no just happen by...
Time was many a deputy game warden in PA were reformed (one way or another) poachers. As in "It takes a thief, to catch a thief." Far as I know those days are past.
All in all I will say that most of the interaction I have had with all types of wildlife officers has been good, to very good.
How was the hunting in Big Sky, and Alberta?
I have a bad itch for Sharptails that needs scratched.
Best regards
Vince