It's like having kids in sports.

[William Reinicke]

One of the neighbors had a dog that would bark all the time. A little yap dog. I lived next to her for 10 years and she would bark at me all day long if she was allowed. I could never sit out on the front porch and enjoy watching my dogs in the front yard. Or the back yard even.

Another of the neighbors have a pack of shepherds that would get out and come to my property and try to fight my dogs through the fence and bark a lot of the night.

Needless to say, I hate a dog that barks constantly. Funny story.....I had had Belle about three weeks and it was dark and about the time that the neighbors shepherds would get out and barking started. I started cussing up a storm because I was sure they had gotten ANOTHER dog (they had about 10 dogs at the time) because I did not recognize the bark. So, I head outside to get them gone and while the neighbors dogs were there running up and down my fence, it was BELLE doing the barking. That was the first time I had ever heard her bark. She doesn't often bark even now.

Ya I know your pain. We have a dog that howels near our home. For the most part, shes ok but whenever a siren goes off in the distance, she gets to howling to the point it wakes everyone up. When I lived in the city, we had great neighbors for how close we lived. One day, we were outside and they had a new dog just howling and barking. Looked over the fence and it was a new basset hound that I had never seen before. Gosh that dog was just howling and howling. My better half was fed up after about a couple days. I didnt want to say anything at first because they had been so good of neighbors. Just about the time I was going to go over and say something, the couple showed up on our door step. They just apologized perfusely and didnt know what to do as they inherited the dog. The wife's brother was a guide in Wyoming and he was the guide who was killed by the grizzly about 5-7 years ago when it got in their tent and mauled the guide and hunter. In turn, they inherited the dog and they didnt know what to do. I couldnt complain after hearing the story, so we started letting it come over and play with the lab and took it on walks with our dogs when we would go walk and after enough time, it finally settled in. But went from country country to city and noise. Plus lost his owner and was in a complete new household. But ya... I know your pain sir. Dogs in the neighborhood can be a bit much at times for the sanity.

 

[Michael McCord1]

My setter and her litter mate (next door) love to hear themselves bark and have identical barks. I never know which one I’m yelling at when I go out the back door

 

[Nate Hoyt]

On the UKC Hunt Test side, they didn't fault a dog for running the bank on the return in my experience. They had to hold or handle to the line on the way out, but could go to bank on the return as long as they didn't dork around along the way. The problem is that we routinely train to a "higher standard" and make the shore "electric" during swim-by drills going and coming. The pup learns that the bank hurts. We also don't handle on returns, so getting a well trained dog to cast to the bank on return is frequently not going to happen. Glad you went out and got your dog, because a good hunting dog will absolutely kill itself trying to do the right thing.

I personally don't like the way test and trial experience translates to the marsh. The dogs rely on the handler too much IMHO. It takes a really well trained test and trial dog a couple of seasons of hard hunting to get the confidence to stop popping and drop their nose to chase down cripples. If you don't hunt hard enough, they may never figure it out.

Nate

 

[William Reinicke]

On the UKC Hunt Test side, they didn't fault a dog for running the bank on the return in my experience. They had to hold or handle to the line on the way out, but could go to bank on the return as long as they didn't dork around along the way. The problem is that we routinely train to a "higher standard" and make the shore "electric" during swim-by drills going and coming. The pup learns that the bank hurts. We also don't handle on returns, so getting a well trained dog to cast to the bank on return is frequently not going to happen. Glad you went out and got your dog, because a good hunting dog will absolutely kill itself trying to do the right thing.

I personally don't like the way test and trial experience translates to the marsh. The dogs rely on the handler too much IMHO. It takes a really well trained test and trial dog a couple of seasons of hard hunting to get the confidence to stop popping and drop their nose to chase down cripples. If you don't hunt hard enough, they may never figure it out.

Nate

Very good point! I say it all the time that my dog now has a better nose than my first dog did. Im not sure I didnt train the nose out of the dog though. Looking back, she could mark triples and quadruples. What she didnt see on a volley, I could handle her to the bird. There were times though, I would send her into an area blindly and she never would retrieve or find a bird. Drove me nuts, and it was certainly her downfall or short comings. This dog now, even though I cant handle her and she cant mark as many as my previous, if i get her in an area I know a bird went down, shes finding it with the nose she has. Shes found some incredible down birds over the years too. Many times, I give up and I can hear her crashing around and ill head back to the blind. Figure I will let her blow off some steam and energy, and 3-5 minutes later, her she comes with it.

 

[RM Anderson]

I think hunters underestimate how far a wounded bird can travel; even a wounded duck on land can quickly put on some distance from where they fell. One of the reasons American armed forces have excelled in past campaigns is attributed to a doctrine that allows even the lowest ranking soldier to exercise independent judgement rather than waiting for instructions to come from above. Like a battlefield, a hunting trip is often a chaotic environment and giving a dog the independence to carry out his end of the mission is a massive advantage compared to waiting to be told what to do. Berta has taught me more about hunting than I have taught her and I have learned to play to her strengths. Think about it, our dogs are like mediators between us and the natural world. Why mess up that relationship by micro-managing?
RM

 

[Michael McCord1]

I think hunters underestimate how far a wounded bird can travel; even a wounded duck on land can quickly put on some distance from where they fell. One of the reasons American armed forces have excelled in past campaigns is attributed to a doctrine that allows even the lowest ranking soldier to exercise independent judgement rather than waiting for instructions to come from above. Like a battlefield, a hunting trip is often a chaotic environment and giving a dog the independence to carry out his end of the mission is a massive advantage compared to waiting to be told what to do. Berta has taught me more about hunting than I have taught her and I have learned to play to her strengths. Think about it, our dogs are like mediators between us and the natural world. Why mess that relationship up by micro-managing?
RM

I know we often mark the fall short of where it landed

 

[William Reinicke]

I think hunters underestimate how far a wounded bird can travel; even a wounded duck on land can quickly put on some distance from where they fell. One of the reasons American armed forces have excelled in past campaigns is attributed to a doctrine that allows even the lowest ranking soldier to exercise independent judgement rather than waiting for instructions to come from above. Like a battlefield, a hunting trip is often a chaotic environment and giving a dog the independence to carry out his end of the mission is a massive advantage compared to waiting to be told what to do. Berta has taught me more about hunting than I have taught her and I have learned to play to her strengths. Think about it, our dogs are like mediators between us and the natural world. Why mess that relationship up by micro-managing?
RM

Because micro managing is kind of fun. I miss the ability to handle a good dog sometimes. But I get where you are coming from as well and do agree with you. I took it WAY too far with my first, but I was young and was a control freak with everything she did. This one, cannot take any pressure and cowers to every ounce of it, so we have been very soft in the training. I will likely never get her to the point she can take hand signals, but I can tell her "back" into an area, and she just goes to hunting. I think theres a fine line, where I like to be able to whistle sit them if they are on the wrong side of the wind and I can handle them back to where I know they'll be successful and then let their noses take over.

Sometimes I look at the big picture between the two dogs ive owned thus far. I had every intention on training this one to the same level, minus a few little things I didnt like in my first. But since this one doesnt have the mindset, that my first did, its made me re-evaluate so much. I think my third will hit that sweet spot if it can take pressure. Ive learned new ways of getting to the same goal without all the same pressure and Ive learned that, by doing so, it keeps that natural hunt and ability in the dog. I got at least another 3-5 with this current one, but sometimes I get excited thinking about the next and where I want to go with it.

 

[Nate Hoyt]

I set out to make my current Chessie the best dog I ever trained. We trained hard. Handling drills were intoxicating. Hearing judges mutter that they can't judge handling "if she just lines everything" was my drug. I am not proud to admit that I was the snob that silently judged you when your pup broke at a Junior or Started hunt test. My dog was a statue on marks; she handled beautifully; she held lines like a laser; judges loved her...

...and the skunk pops after trailing a cripple 20' in the marsh.

I. Am. The. Over-trainer.

I've done this before to a lesser extent with previous dogs, but those dogs had a natural tendency to "hunt first and ask questions later" and we hunted so much at the time that my influence was diluted out by the end of their first season.

This dog taught me that control is something to enjoy in strict moderation. I really need a dog who has the belligerent confidence to find their own bird and to flip me off when I tell her to do something stupid, but otherwise tolerates me because I drive the boat, set the dekes and (sometimes) slow the birds down a little. My future dogs will trail confidently and be well introduced to upland before I allow myself to begin to introduce steadiness and handling. It will force me to chill the F out for 4-6 months while they grow up and learn to trust their noses.

I am finally starting to understand that 1.) dogs can actually learn stuff much, much faster than they should and 2.) I must actively train them to have confidence in themselves more than I actively train them to have confidence in me.

Nate

P.S. Puppies that break are not ready for a hunt test! I'll die on that hill!

 

[Nate Hoyt]

Because micro managing is kind of fun. I miss the ability to handle a good dog sometimes. But I get where you are coming from as well and do agree with you. I took it WAY too far with my first, but I was young and was a control freak with everything she did. This one, cannot take any pressure and cowers to every ounce of it, so we have been very soft in the training. I will likely never get her to the point she can take hand signals, but I can tell her "back" into an area, and she just goes to hunting. I think theres a fine line, where I like to be able to whistle sit them if they are on the wrong side of the wind and I can handle them back to where I know they'll be successful and then let their noses take over.

Sometimes I look at the big picture between the two dogs ive owned thus far. I had every intention on training this one to the same level, minus a few little things I didnt like in my first. But since this one doesnt have the mindset, that my first did, its made me re-evaluate so much. I think my third will hit that sweet spot if it can take pressure. Ive learned new ways of getting to the same goal without all the same pressure and Ive learned that, by doing so, it keeps that natural hunt and ability in the dog. I got at least another 3-5 with this current one, but sometimes I get excited thinking about the next and where I want to go with it.

Try to train with some people who train good field-bred Goldens (not the damn fluffies). They have a much more mellow approach than Lab trainers and can really help you adapt to a dog that tolerates less pressure. I was lucky to work with some folks who trained excellent Goldens and they really helped me figure out my Chessie. People talk about how tough Chessies are and how it takes a 2x4 to train them. That is total BS. Chessies are actually much sensitive to pressure than a Lab in my experience, but instead of turning into a puddle when you apply too much pressure, they turn into a marble statue (or possibly eat you if you have some old school Eastern Shore bruiser). You have to dial way back if you come from a Lab background like me.

Nate

 

[Rick Hall]

Congratulations to Josh and Mark. It takes a lot of dedication, time and resources to train and successfully campaign a trial or upper level hunt test dog. And most of us who are serious about our hunting dogs are apt to owe folks like you a training or breeding debt of some sort.

That said, as someone with far greater interest in some of this thread's "derailment" than the retriever games, I'm tempted to start another along the lines of "It's like having a junior partner..."

 

[RM Anderson]

Congratulations to Josh and Mark. It takes a lot of dedication, time and resources to train and successfully campaign a trial or upper level hunt test dog. And most of us who are serious about our hunting dogs are apt to owe folks like you a training or breeding debt of some sort.

That said, as someone with far greater interest in some of this thread's "derailment" than the retriever games, I'm tempted to start another along the lines of "It's like having a junior partner..."

Rick,
Guilty as charged but it was certainly not my intent. Our debate should have been the subject of a separate thread. My apologies and yes, congratulations, to Josh and Mark.
RM

 

[Rick Hall]

Rick,
Guilty as charged but it was certainly not my intent. Our debate should have been the subject of a separate thread. My apologies and yes, congratulations, to Josh and Mark.
RM

The tangents they've taken are what's kept most long threads active and, in this example's case, what finally broke me over to join the site and conversation after only occasionally browsing the site over the years.

Despite having joined one of the very first HRC clubs (Cajun) before I even owned a "retriever," per se, as a means of learning more about they and their training in the mid '80s and HRC testing the first four of my six Chessies to date, largely as a means of holding my training feet to the fire. I never caught the retrieving game bug. And my early roots with pointing dogs that didn't know they weren't supposed to double as duck dogs and forty seasons of full-time, mostly waterfowl, guiding in a wide variety of real-world circumstances have seen me follow a very different training path than the gamers'.

For my purposes, not running a bank when it will improve time and energy efficiency is as undesireable as not handling when that's the course to greater efficency. And when my old friend from another board, William, wrote "Im not sure I didnt train the nose out of the dog..." it made me think of my second Chessie, Chien, who had the nose to track a cripple to Timbukto, but too often sought my direction before finding a track, because I'd inadvertently trained the independant search out of him.

And it was your post #25 that most closely touched on my desire to develop inspired junior partners with abilities well beyond my own that can be trusted to use them in most instances while also taking my direction when need be.

 

[RM Anderson]

The tangents they've taken are what's kept most long threads active and, in this example's case, what finally broke me over to join the site and conversation after only occasionally browsing the site over the years.

Rick,
I'm glad we motivated you to join. Welcome to duckboats.net!
RM

 

[William Reinicke]

Welcome aboard Rick, great to have you here.

 

[Josh Jenson]

The tangents they've taken are what's kept most long threads active and, in this example's case, what finally broke me over to join the site and conversation after only occasionally browsing the site over the years.

Despite having joined one of the very first HRC clubs (Cajun) before I even owned a "retriever," per se, as a means of learning more about they and their training in the mid '80s and HRC testing the first four of my six Chessies to date, largely as a means of holding my training feet to the fire. I never caught the retrieving game bug. And my early roots with pointing dogs that didn't know they weren't supposed to double as duck dogs and forty seasons of full-time, mostly waterfowl, guiding in a wide variety of real-world circumstances have seen me follow a very different training path than the gamers'.

For my purposes, not running a bank when it will improve time and energy efficiency is as undesireable as not handling when that's the course to greater efficency. And when my old friend from another board, William, wrote "Im not sure I didnt train the nose out of the dog..." it made me think of my second Chessie, Chien, who had the nose to track a cripple to Timbukto, but too often sought my direction before finding a track, because I'd inadvertently trained the independant search out of him.

And it was your post #25 that most closely touched on my desire to develop inspired junior partners with abilities well beyond my own that can be trusted to use them in most instances while also taking my direction when need be.

training the independence out of a chessie is no small feat! I had a male out of an FC, that dog was so independent and I could rarely get him to accept a cast from me. He thought he was smarter than me most of the time.

 

[Rick Hall]

training the independence out of a chessie is no small feat! I had a male out of an FC, that dog was so independent and I could rarely get him to accept a cast from me. He thought he was smarter than me most of the time.

Having started with pointing dogs more naturally inclined to focus on learning what's over yonder, I've found my Chessies far more inherently handler focused and much like that damn kid whose hand was always up in school. "Call on me! Call on me!" Doesn't mean they won't challenge my direction when they think they're right - but they plenty often enough are to have earned a fair bit of leeway much of the time before a second whistle and cast they know best be followed. My marking sucks compared to theirs, and it's their feet on the ground out there.

Anyway, I was incredibly blessed with an early pointing dog mentor who set me on a life-long course of building good habits very early on through puppy-sized lessons and avoiding the development of bad ones that would later need breaking, and having had some struggle reeling my first into upland range, I thought it wise to bring my second Chessie, Chien, (sired by AFC Chase and out of a CFC/CAFC Barry x FC AFC Sally gyp) on to always stay within the upland gunning range unless retrieving.

Worked slick in terms of making viable upland range habitual with little real effort, but I think it retarded the development of his independent search and know he was, by a good margin, the quickest of my six to look for further help when his mark or my handling didn't put him on scent.