Kansas - Another Domino About To Fall In the Push to Reduce Non-Residents in Favor of Residents

Eric Patterson said:
Jode

Who are these new hunters? NJ residents or from neighboring states? Are they mostly young or are you seeing older folks, say 30+, getting involved for the first time?

Eric
Click to expand...

It's a mix. Mostly younger Hunter's, but not all of them. Last year we had a big influx of Deerhunters turning to duck hunting for the first time. Those that I talk to attributed it to the fun of it, and the poor condition of much of New Jersey deer herd due to an outbreak of EHD.

I would say they are split 50-50 between residents and non residents.

The large majority are from Pennsylvania but we also get New York and Delaware hunters. Both of which have more restrictive Access laws than us.

I have a lot of friends from out of state and I would hate them to be restricted.

However one example I saw this season was out of state hunters leaving the ramp with Atlantic Brant on their lowered tailgate . When I flagged him down to stop them they explain to me the birds were going for a "tailgate ride on the Espressway ". This is parlance for wanton waste because of the less than desirable table fair of most Atlantic Brant. I was so dumb struck by the comment I never thought of getting the license plate. But this is the type of things that happen when people begin to view birds as live targets.
 
Dax is having problems logging on, so i am posting this for him
-" i admittedly o hunt Kansas. It's a yearly trip my buddies and i take. The areas we hun do include some of those mentioned and i tend to diagree with the over pressure reasoning mentioned behind thid proposal/
One of the particular areas we hunt sees statiastically less traffic in two weeks than an Alabama launch seea in N ENTIRE DAY. I WISH I COULD HAVE ATUAL NUMBERS TO PROVE MY POINT but only observations of a person who actually goes there each year
Limiting out od state huntera to three days will kill non-reident license sales, which may be the ultimate goal, but i would question the long term financial impact of such decisions andultimately money that returns to the wetlands.
In my time of interaction with hunter out there, I have only run into three resident hunters andregardless of state residency, everyone has been overly polite and respecful of each other.
We have been making the trip for the past six years and NEVER heard a screaming or cussing match across the marshes.
If they feel over pressure is truly the underlying reason,why not just limit the areas to morning hunting only?

All hunters are to be off the water by noon or one P M, etc.
Just trying to bring real world observations to light under the Kansas domino effect.
Dax
 
Eric,

I was on a Kansas forum on another site, and the Kansas residents that post there are overjoyed. They cite OOS license plates being 50-75% of the plates in the parking areas, the locals gunning a couple of hours while the OOS guys gun all day, and how they are the paragons of waterfowling while the OOS are trash that come there to throw their weight around and kill "their" ducks.

In short, it was a lot of the same garbage I heard from Arkansas resident hunters when they wanted (and got) restrictions on OOS hunters.

They all talk about how it will reduce the pressure on the ducks, but they will still be gunning them on public 7 days a week, with the ability to hunt them all day. Not one word was mentioned about going to half days to rest the ducks, or having closed days during the week, or doing anything that is truly management oriented. They also tended to complain about how the guides (particularly the ones coming from other states that gun the whole flyway) have all the good ground locked up, you can't knock on doors any more, what isn't leased by them is leased by OOS guys waving money around, OR the OOS guys bought up however many acres and locked up all the "good stuff". And according to them, they "are going after the guides next". Several suggested that guide permits should be $10-15,000 annually.

Another bad part of the deal is that Kansas supposedly has verbal agreement from the Corps of Engineers at least (and some hints of agreement from the NWR's as well) that it will apply to Federal CoE land leased to KDWP as part of their hunting areas. So because that Federal land is leased to KDWP, it will be off limits as well, and potentially the NWR's also.

They have about 25-30% of Arkansas' public land, 25-30% of the hunters, and about 25% of the annual kill; it's fairly proportional, in my opinion, but any input from the outside is given short shrift. I tried to demonstrate the proportionality, and a guy posted up that Arkansas had 3 million acres of public land, where Kansas had 300,000. When I told him that 3 million included the Ozark and Ouachita National Forests (mountains), and that our WMA's and NWR's were in the neighborhood of 600,000 acres, and the published totals of duck ground WMA's in Kansas totaled somewhere around 225,000 acres, he said they really only had 100,000 acres, maybe less, of public land. Arkansas always magically had 8 to 10 times more ground, so there was no comparison, and we don't understand a thing about overcrowding on public land.

It's a mess, but it's probably going to happen. It's a shame; I wanted to hunt Kansas for a change of scenery and to maybe try for ducks and pheasants on the same trip, but freelancing is probably out. The sad part is that it will just see the lease prices go higher, the guide services lease more land and charge more, land prices will go even higher, and the public areas will still get pressure 7 days a week.
 
Rick

Yes, it is going to happen, and I expect more states will become territorial with "their" ducks and pass ways to limit non-resident hunting. Public land usage will become mostly for residents and guide services will cater to non-residents and provide a service to the non-resident hunters, for a fee of course. Those that don't have the money, and those who prefer to hunt on their own terms there is no longer a viable option to hunt.

I think I will contact my state and push them to restrict non-resident fisherman to Sun-Tue fishing only. I'm sick of not being able to park at the ramps with all those out-of-state tags filling the parking lot. We have one of the best bass lakes in the country and the outsiders are destroying our bass fishing heritage. Same with turkey and deer hunting. Let them move here if they want to enjoy it. Obviously, this is sarcasm, every state has its unique opportunities. This philosophy of "You're not from here so you can't touch game in this state." is doltishness.

Eric
 
Well, it's July in Maine, and the "summer complaints" are here in droves, clogging every intersection and aisle in the grocery store, and the heat index is 100 degrees, pretty well killing off my trout fishing for the summer, so I'm in cranky mood. I've still got no interest in keeping out-of-state hunters and anglers off Maine's water or public lands.

Across much of the east, we're seeing rapid privatization of fish and game via restricted access. I fear that in 50 years hunting and fishing here will be only for the wealthy across much of the nation.

Counting my blessings to live in the state that almost certainly has the most wide open and unlimited access to private land in the country, and some of the best laws on access to tidal waters and lakes. (Our stream access laws are not good, but very few streams are posted yet.)
 
Ok, realistically, I can more easily understand the States that restrict OOS for certain species like cervids, turkey, quail and pheasants which are popular game species and mostly grown within their borders. As an example I never really questioned South Dakota on limiting pheasant hunters; if they know the carrying capacity of the habitat, the number of birds killed, anticipated hatch, etc., then it seems logical. I can also see it in States like Florida with a unique subspecies of turkey; if every idiot comes in, they are wiped out.

It seems short sighted to me, but for as much as I would like game and fish agencies to be guided strictly by good biology, they are also subject to politics and (with a few exceptions) appropriations budgets. And they do work for the people who reside in their State/Commonwealth.

To be fair, a lot of this is a "first world problem". Even though there are fewer hunters, the mobility and ability to travel along with things like OnX have changed people's attitudes. Our annual trips to Stuttgart from northern Illinois when I was a kid were an exception, not the rule. People will leave Georgia or South Carolina on Friday, drive all night to get to a ramp in Arkansas, hunt Saturday, rest that afternoon, hunt Sunday, and then drive home to be back at work on Monday. That was unheard of in the past. Even Arkansas residents are more mobile now; people used to frequent one or two WMAs and know them intimately. Now people will drive across the State if the ducks are in, rather than waiting on them.

It's a totally different game than 15 years ago or more, and agencies are forced to make the choice whether or not to listen to the residents screaming at them. The problem is that when it doesn't cure the underlying issue, what will be the next "symptom" that has to be cured?
 
Jeff

Unlimited access to private land? Do you not need permission of the landowner? How do things work in Maine?

Eric
 
No permission needed in Maine, if it's not posted its OK to hunt. Much of the northern part of the state is owned by timber/paper companies. Always good to ask if you can identify a residential owner however. It's the same in several other NE states, and was in more until just a decade or two ago.
 
SJ Fairbank said:
No permission needed in Maine, if it's not posted its OK to hunt. Much of the northern part of the state is owned by timber/paper companies. Always good to ask if you can identify a residential owner however. It's the same in several other NE states, and was in more until just a decade or two ago.
Click to expand...

An important bit of context here is that Maine contains about 10 million acres of PRIVATE forestland that are almost entirely owned by absentee landowners in large blocks, and are in parts of the state that are so sparsely populated they do not have organized towns, local government, or in many cases, even a single mile of public road. I was once 111 miles in on logging roads from the closest public road. By long tradition, the large landowners have kept most of that acreage available to the public. This is facilitated by almost a complete absence of liability for private landowners who allow recreation on their lands, so they can't be sued if you so something dumb or even get hurt by some hazard they have created. The roads are all private logging roads, built and paid for by the landowners, and their trucks have the right of way and will take it, so you better get out of the way!


It's an incredible resource. Ecologically and for recreation, it's the equivalent of a very large national forest, except that it is privately owned.
 
Jeff & SJ

Appreciate the info on Maine's land policies. There can't be too many states left that allow hunters to enter land without explicit permission. Alabama hasn't been that way since 1974(?) when the "All land is posted." law passed. The only land I know of that one can hunt without a permit of some sort is TVA land designated for public recreation, aka the floodplain. Everywhere else requires a permit, written permission, or you have to own it. I gather most of the duck hunting there happens on the coast, but boy I'd imagine if a guy could find some water with ducks in one of those remote areas it would be like going back in time to hunt.

Rick

A lot of good insight in your post. I very much appreciate your words and perspective. To be clear, like Jeff I don't want my state trying to keep non-residents from enjoying our fisheries and hunting. Going back to the early 2000s Jackson County, AL saw a massive influx of GA duck hunters coming from NW GA and the Atlanta metro area. On weekends and during the holidays they outnumbered residents. There was A LOT of anti-GA hunter sentiment around here and many were calling for measures to reduce the numbers. I was never in that camp. Funny thing is it all died down. The GA numbers on Lake Guntersville are a shadow of what they were. Left alone a lot of things run their course.

I'd imagine right now the key waterfowl hunting states are wrestling with these issues, and ones that aren't will be soon. My opinions and attitudes will probably always be for the average guy who just wants to get out and scout until they find something that looks good and hunt. Who is looking for a little slice of land to call his for a few hours and not be disturbed. The type of guy that prefers solitude and freedom over season numbers. The guy that follows the rules and is respectful but wants to hunt on his terms and not be burdened with stacks of ever-changing regulations that differ everywhere. Life is damn complicated and going hunting was always something the average Joe could simply do, perhaps with his loved ones and close friends. Now, it all seems to be getting more structured, restrictive, complex, and cumbersome by the minute.

Eric
 
Last edited:
Eric,

Sorry to take so long to respond...life and work get in the way.

I think any state with "good hunting" is facing a lot of tough choices on their public lands, particularly with respect to game birds. It's funny that people inherently understand, or at least don't gripe too much, about restrictions on public land deer hunting, but not other species.

I think there will always be the guys who want to do things "their" way; honestly I think every duck hunter does. I think if it were within their grasp, every duck hunter would just as soon have his own couple hundred acres to putter around on and figure life out the way he wants to. But that isn't possible for the majority, and they do what they can. Looking at land prices now versus ten years ago, it is going even further out of reach for "normal" people; that couple hundred acres is $2000-$16,000 per acre now, and not many individuals can drop a million on ground just to do it "their way". This necessitates partners, and owning land with other people is a tricky thing...and then it becomes a matter of establishing rules and trust and everyone abiding by them.

It's easy to forget that duck hunting has always had a component of it that was a wealthy person's sport and wasn't regarded as egalitarian as deer, rabbits, and squirrels. It may be that duck hunting now is as open to every person who wants to do it as it has ever been...

Market gunners weren't killing 100 canvasback a day for the pictures...it put money in their pockets and food on the table when their other occupations might be done for the year. Nash Buckingham wasn't hunting on public land, and he talks casually about taking a train to run south to Tunica, using a whistle stop to have Horace pick him up in a wagon...not something that every man could afford, even as part of a club, although I suspect the value of the dollar comparatively now versus the 1910's/20's would show how far out of line things have gone.

One of the stories that my grandmother used to like to tell was that she, my grandfather, and her father would run "jump lines" on the Mississippi River for catfish. Think of a trotline suspended off the bottom but allowed to drift downriver rather than be anchored in one spot. They would get paid for the catfish, and then she would buy ground beef for them to eat. The price difference was so substantial per pound that they couldn't afford to keep catfish to eat. I imagine much the same about the market gunners - keep a pair of cans to roast and eat, or pocket that extra cash and go get a week's worth of groceries?
 
Rick

No problem the speed of reply. I know all about life and work...

I guess we are getting a bit philosophical now about the changes over time and things certainly do change, sometimes right in front of our eye. Some of the big changes I've seen in North Alabama in the last fifteen years I didn't see coming, e.g. invasive aquatic vegetation destroying productive hunting grounds, regulations severely curtailing access, redistribution/loss of wintering species and numbers, etc.

As for one owning their own land, I can't count the times I've heard duck hunters say they'd have their own paradise if only they could buy some land and manage for hunting. I'm sure you know I've been fortunate that my employer trusts me to help manage his duck hunting properties and in return I get access. The work we've done has increased his utilization and property value so he's getting a pretty good deal too. But most duck hunters who say their dream is to own their own land fail to recognize the INCREDIBLE AMOUNT OF TIME it takes to develop and maintain duck property, not to mention the costs. THE WORK NEVER ENDS. In my case my employer covers most of the costs, but Thomas and I and a couple friends do the hot sweaty dirty work. An incomplete list; meeting/consulting with USDA reps concerning WRE agreements and management implementation, levee and water control structure construction and installation, equipment maintenance, tillage, planting, herbicide application, invasive vegetation and undesirable growth clearing, blind construction, camoing, unclogging culverts, beaver control, and constant monitoring/actions for proper water flowage and food plot condition.

Not a week goes by I'm not spending time there, frequently all Saturday or all weekend. Untold miles put on my vehicles driving back and forth and I purchase equipment to do work, e.g. a tractor, spray rig, disc, etc., out of my own pocket. I'm off Friday and my butt will be in the tractor seat spraying herbicide and repairing a leaking water control structure. The work never ends. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy it and the time spent with my son and friends. But the hard truth is money to purchase land is not the only barrier preventing guys from having their own property. It takes an incredible investment in time and the proper skillset to do all the tasks required. If you don't have the time and ability, then you will pay even more money to have someone do it and a lot of these jobs wouldn't be easy to find someone to do them. Either that or find volunteers to take on the never-ending tasks in exchange for hunting access. That is who Thomas and I are, guys working our assess off to enjoy something we couldn't otherwise.

I'm taking the long way to make my point, and I may have got off track with my own situation. But if public access continues to be restricted, then hunter numbers will drop and along with them the resources and influence that has preserved waterfowl populations. I don't think the stable populations, comparatively speaking, we've seen in North America would exist today were it not for the resources/influence hunter numbers created. There is no avoiding it, the rank-and-file hunter can neither afford their own land nor the time commitment. In the face of shrinking public access that leaves guides, clubs, and leases, and each of these bears considerable expense and there aren't enough spots to go around. Ultimately people are priced-out, and with them goes their larger portion of hunter recruitment. Hunter numbers will drop precipitously. I can see no way to avoid it. Public hunting access is the backbone of hunter participation and new policies and regulations are going to reduce it and ultimately damage the management structure in place.

I don't' have a crystal ball and can't say for sure what is going to happen, I'm just stating the way I see this heading - fewer hunters, mostly those with significant disposable income, and at-risk waterfowl populations.

Eric
 
Last edited:
Hammer, meet nail. I think you captured owning duck ground pretty accurately; there are very few areas that you can just "show up and hunt", unless you own part of a cypress brake or land along a river. It takes a long time to get a property to the point where people think it just sort of happened that way, and you are the luckiest s.o.b. to find a place like that... It's like a farm - there is always something that needs to be done.

I think a lot of the public land management at least in the central US is at or near a crisis point. On one hand, it seems like you have two disparate events - the number of hunters and the number of new, young hunters is dropping. Yet on the public areas overcrowding is an almost universal complaint.

I would be VERY curious to see some in-depth research at WMA's in the Mississippi and Central Flyways to see what the truth of the matter is regarding numbers of hunters. Maybe places like Kansas are seeing an uptick as places like Arkansas and Alabama are cooling off; I have no idea. I'd also be curious to know what modern hunter mobility is; that is, how many states are people hunting ducks in during the season and how many days are spent in states other than their own? Last year I hunted three states - Arkansas, Texas, and Kentucky. Over the last five years I have hunted at least two states each year. I used to only hunt one. This year may be three again, depending on work and life.
 
I asked ChatGPT and it looks like that data is not widely available on the internet.

I did find a national hunting license dashboard on the National Shooting Sports website.

https://www.nssf.org/...ense-data-dashboard/

According to the dashboard Kansas numbers are non-resident 61,487 vs resident 85,044 for 2021 license sales vs Alabama has non-resident 33,002 vs resident 339,956,

Kansas looks to be almost a 60/40 split of resident/non-resident hunters.

Here is another good set of data from Fish and Wildlife Service

Hunting Licenses, Holders, and Costs by Apportionment Year

https://us-east-1.quicksight.aws.amazon.com/sn/accounts/329180516311/dashboards/48b2aa9c-43a9-4ea6-887e-5465bd70140b?directory_alias=tracs-quicksight



Rick
 
Last edited:
Finding good data on "true" numbers of duck hunters by State is difficult. License sales reflect all hunting licenses...deer, duck, pheasant, turkey. State duck stamp sales are more indicative, but don't necessarily split the number between resident and nonresident, though that data could be pretty easily determined since the majority of the sales are online.

I don't think Kansas has 85,000 duck hunters. The total state duck stamps sold in Arkansas annually is somewhere around 80,000 if I remember correctly. I think Kansas is 20,000 to 30,000.

The easiest way I've found to estimate at least the total number is to take the USFWS kill estimate by State against the average number of ducks per hunter...
 
The USF&WS annual harvest report contains hunter numbers by each state in addition to harvest, but there is no res/non-res distinction made. I don't know to what extent my own state estimates/analyzes non-resident duck hunter numbers. I've never seen anything published. They could look at online license sales and see how many non-resident license purchases accompanied HIP surveys and state stamp sales and probably get a good estimate. As for hunter activity on the north Alabama WMAs, hunters are required to "check-in" on an app or use an old school form stuffed in a drop box. I can tell by license tags the non-res traffic is very low on the WMAs. Lake Guntersville does see some but nothing like the 2000-2015 timeframe, not even close.

The issue we have for north Alabama duck hunters is the population of Madison county has E X P L O D E D and with it a proportionate increase in duck hunters. While at the same time the only expansion in public duck hunting is special opportunity areas (SOAs) and these are by draw and only service a tiny proportion of hunters, many of whom come from the other end of the state. Add to this the severe reduction of ducks on Lake Guntersville and more hunters look to the dewatering areas on the WMAs. The knockout punch came when they eliminated Tue-Thur hunting, thus hordes of hunters jam into the WMAs on the weekend. A study was recently completed that shows the use of the WMAs by waterfowl on the closed days is NO DIFFERENT than the days hunters are there. I hope the state sees the no-weekday regulation for the abysmal failure it is and gives us back the weekdays. Maybe then I could have some great weekday afternoon hunts which were my bread and butter for many years.

Eric
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top