NDR: stirring the pot - is the war on terror worth it

Charlie-

I like your posts, even these. I too like the openness of the forum, deer, coyotes badgers, anything outdoors or in.

I am pretty new to the forum but most threads are, if not duck related, outdoorsish at least, and if not at least related to something in the life of someone you know through reading the forum. I like it this way .... but this thread is streatching the envelope a bit.

I believe that success in Iraq is possible and that the upside would be great, i.e.- the prevention of WWIII. I recognize that this is my opinion and that others think differently. Go for it. I like a lively debate.
(I do not currently have any charity in me for Pelosi though as I feel she has done a couple of things lately that are intentionally against our military goals in Iraq and not excuseable.)

I also think that damaging the economy through higher taxes is not good, that there is a level of taxation that both reduces the burden on tax payers while increasing government revenue. (I think that that level is just slightly less than the taxes we are now paying.)

I think any government medical progam should be designed to reward taxpayers with service and choice and thus encourage work.

Outlawing lawyers advertising for clients and restricting drug companies from direct consumer advertising would help. I can remember when lawyer and drug company advertising was illeagal and I think it was better that way.

Someone post a picture of a double ended 14' marsh boat, will ya???

You also have a good night, if you are not abed already.


Bob
 
Well Charlie, lets just to add to the debate and get it going in yet another direction. One that will hit even more people here on the forum.

You seem concerned about "the children" and the costs of health care as compared to the cost of the war. Why don't we BAN all cigarettes, the cost savings on the burden of health care will support free care for the kiddos and actually support the war too..........

I am not just spouting off, do some research into the effects of cigarettes on the overall OVERUSE of healthcare by smokers. The numbers of ER visits, the # of MI's, pneumonias, strokes, nursing home admissions, extra CT scans/CXR/antiboiotics blah blah blah....All of it goes up due to smoking. Ever notice on your health insurance questions or exams they ask about smoking. If you smoke, you pay more (hey, let's talk about THAT discrimination too....)

Look at the money squandered on those selfish SOB's......they choose to smoke and by their choices cost all of us more money.

Should we attack them? should we ostracize them yet further? Should we tax them higher (opps, guess that is already happening..WI just raised the taxes on smokes another dollar...still behind MI as the highest cig tax state though) but I guess we could give them a 3 grand a year surplus charge, or something really high so they don't keep draining the healthcare dollars. Damn them, make them pay more so I don't have to.....and then the kids can have health care....I should be against all these thoughts since if any of them truly were inacted my job in pulmonology (lung specialist) would be at least 1/2 over if there was no smoking........

Let's talk about the kids....the rates of pregnancy/STD/tobacco use/drinking/drugs/obesity are all rising....is it the fault of NO insurance? NO free health care? or is there a deeper issue here....one of parental negligence?????

I think Nick summed up most of my thoughts on the war nicely...on the radio today they said that in Iraq, bombings/causualties are down 72%, American Military approval rating over there was up to 83%....guess we are doing something good and in my eyes it needs to be finished....

Charlie, in the vein of going into public debate, can we also add ABORTION and Religion to the table? Bet that gets a few others drawn out of the woodwork to.....What do you think?

Oh, yah know the reason why most decide to quit is these threads normally start slinging personal jabs and insults, so far this has been fairly tame and just a good discussion......wonder if it will change......
 
Hi Eric,

I am a political atheist and am not really sure what I think or believe, so I'll just react to your post without thought, like I am wont to do so frequently.

I think there is too much regulation on most things as it is, but I could get on board with making cigarettes illegal if it was the "will of the people".

Seems like American society currently has judged that smoking is "bad" - so it wouldn't be unreasonable to make it illegal like other drugs that harm people.

Make it simple, you don't need to criminalize people who "use" or are physically or psychologically "dependent" on the drug, just regulate cigarettes under the FDA. The cigarette manufacturers couldn't stay in business five minutes unless they proved that cigarettes (and other tobacco products) were safe.

I suspect that won't ever (?) happen because of two things, not necessarily in this order - politics and money.

We could (and do) try to curb consumption in this oligopolistic market by raising the price in the hopes that it will curb demand. Regrettably the demand is relatively inelastic (steep slope on the demand curve) and people continue to buy them regardless of the cost (within reason).

I say tax the crap out of them and use that for smoking cessation programs and to fund healthcare - oops, we already did that didn't we...

A kid not getting medical care because his parents fall in the no mans land between Medicaid and affordable private insurance in unconscionable to ME. I don't think I can convince you or anyone else, but that is my feeling about it.

I am not in favor of socialized medicine for everyone, but I do think it'd be nice if we could take care of the kids. Put the violins away, this is not a sob story, it is just called caring about your fellow human.

By the way, unless you folks are experts (Eric, you may be) I am not clear that parenting style is the number one cause of obesity in the nation.

I wouldn't be surprised if the experts thought that there might genetic factors, socioeconomic factors, psychological factors, etc. If you can't afford decent food, it is a lot easier and more affordable to put high carb high calorie food on the table.

Have you priced fruits and vegetables or good organic foods lately? My wife does a market sample every week, and I can tell you, the resulting bill is BIG. Eating well is expensive, like it or not.

Besides, being unable to afford private health insurance neither makes you poor, uneducated, or a bad parent. I know a crap load of college educated (and even more educated) folks that are nowhere near the poverty line, but can't afford (or are not offered) insurance by their employer.

Do you think someone making $15-$20 an hour can afford $1100 a month for family insurance, and still pay the rent/mortgage, pay the bills, and put healthy food on the table? If you do, I'd encourage you to re-run the numbers and share the secret with the working poor of the country.

Look around you, they're everywhere.

Do you think kids can learn well in school if they aren't getting nutrition or are healthy. Go to your kid's school and look around. If it is anything like the public school my kids are going to, you'll see it in a hurry.

Yes, I agree, the debate/conversation usually degrades into name calling and worse and that is why people quit. I think the fact that people have to use real names, are encouraged to post their location and have the ability to edit posts (once they actually think about them) helps to reduce the liklihood.

Although, I think some posters are still holding their tongues and could easily be pushed over the edge into hurling personal insults. They're already their, just thinly veiled.

I'm trying to stay above that. I think most people (hopefully) recognize this as a friendly back and forth, just like you might have in the duck blind. Oops, sorry, duck related comment...

Cheers,
Charlie
 
Ok, let's make the dastardly Corporation give healthcare to their employees...there goes the price of the product...so no one can afford to buy it. OK, the nasty Corporations, to save themselves and the horrible stockholders quit American manufacture and outsource offshore....no need for skilled trade, just stockboys making min. wage. I would say, if you buy a non American made product, you should be ashamed of yourself and figure you have absolutely no say in anything American..monetary wise because you are supporting the problem and lip service isn't going to change it.
 
The speech George W. Bush SHOULD give

Normally, I start these things out by saying "My Fellow Americans." Not doing it this time. If the polls are any indication, I don't know who more than half of you are anymore. I do know something terrible has happened, and that you're really not fellow Americans any longer.

I'll cut right to the chase here: I quit. Now before anyone gets all in a lather about me quitting to avoid impeachment, or to avoid prosecution or something, let me assure you: there's been no breaking of laws or impeachable offenses in this office.
The reason I'm quitting is simple. I'm fed up with you people. I'm fed up because you have no understanding of what's really going on in the world. Or of what's going on in this once-great nation of ours. And the majority of you are too damned lazy to do your homework and figure it out.

Let's start local. You've been sold a bill of goods by politicians and the news media. Polls show that the majority of you think the economy is in the tank. And that's despite record numbers of homeowners including record numbers of MINORITY homeowners. And while we're mentioning minorities, I'll point out that minority business ownership is at an all-time high. Our unemployment rate is as low as it ever was during the Clinton Administration. I've mentioned all those things before, but it doesn't seem to have sunk in.
Despite the shock to our economy of 9/11, the stock market has rebounded to record levels and more Americans than ever are participating in these markets. Meanwhile, all you can do is whine about gas prices, and most of you are too damn stupid to realize that gas prices are high because there's increased demand in other parts of the world, and because a small handful of noisy idiots are more worried about polar bears and beachfront property than your economic security.

We face real threats in the world. Don't give me this ~blood for oil" thing. If I was trading blood for oil I would've already seized Iraq's oil fields and let the rest of the country go to hell. And don't give me this 'Bush Lied People Died' crap either. If I was the liar you morons take me for, I could've easily had chemical weapons planted in Iraq so they could be 'discovered.' Instead, I owned up to the fact that the intelligence was faulty. Let me remind you that the rest of the world thought Saddam had the goods, same as me. Let me also remind you that regime change in Iraq was official US policy before I came into office. Some guy named 'Clinton' established that policy. Bet you didn't know that, did you?

You idiots need to understand that we face a unique enemy. Back during the cold war, there were two major competing political and economic models squaring off. We won that war, but we did so because fundamentally, the Communists wanted to survive, just as we do. We were simply able to outspend and out-tech them. That's not the case this time. The soldiers of our new enemy don't care if they survive. In fact, they want to die. That'd be fine, as long as they weren't also committed to taking as many of you with them as they can. But they are. They want to kill you. And the bastards are all over the globe.

You should be grateful that they haven't gotten any more of us here in the United States since September 11. But you're not. That's because you've got no idea how hard a small number of intelligence, military, law enforcement and homeland security people have worked to make sure of that. When this whole mess started, I warned you that this would be a long and difficult fight. I'm disappointed how many of you people think a long and difficult fight amounts to a single season of 'Survivor'. Instead, you've grown impatient. You're incapable of seeing things through the long lens of history, the way our enemies do. You think that wars should last a few months, a few years, tops. Making matters worse, you actively support those who help the enemy. Every time you buy the New York Times, every time you send a donation to a cut-and-run Democrat's political campaign, well, dammit, you might just as well Fedex a grenade launcher to a Jihadist.It amounts to the same thing.

In this day and age, it's easy enough to find the truth. It's all over the Internet. It just isn't on the pages of the New York Times or on NBC News. But even if it were, I doubt you'd be any smarter. Most of you would rather watch American Idol.

I could say more about your expectations that the government will always be there to bailyou out, even if you're too stupid to leave a city that's below sea level and has a hurricane approaching. I could say more about your insane belief that government, not your own wallet, is where the money comes from. But I've come to the conclusion that were I to do so, it would sail right over your heads.
So I quit. I'm going back to Crawford. I've got an energy-efficient house down there (Al Gore could only dream) and the capability to be fully self-sufficient.

No one ever heard of Crawford before I got elected, and as soon as I'm done here pretty much no one will ever hear of it again. Maybe I'll be lucky enough to die of old age before the last pillars of America fall.

Oh, and by the way, Cheney's quitting too. That means Pelosi is your new President. You asked for it. Watch what she does carefully, because I still have a glimmer of hope that there're just enough of you remaining who are smart enough to turn this thing around in 2008.

So that's it. God bless what's left of America.
Some of you know what I mean.
The rest of you, *Buzz* off.
 
Like Steve mentioned quite a few posts ago, why don't we just give the Iraqiis our Constitution since we aren't using it anymore.

Mark W
 
Ok, let's make the dastardly Corporation give healthcare to their employees...there goes the price of the product...so no one can afford to buy it. OK, the nasty Corporations, to save themselves and the horrible stockholders quit American manufacture and outsource offshore....no need for skilled trade, just stockboys making min. wage. I would say, if you buy a non American made product, you should be ashamed of yourself and figure you have absolutely no say in anything American..monetary wise because you are supporting the problem and lip service isn't going to change it.
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No dastardly, that is just a cost of doing business. If you don't have to pay for insurance, then swell, you are in a market where the labor doesn't or can't demand that of you.

In the marketplace I work in (high tech) a business can go pound sand if they don't offer competitive benefits. Might not be the same supply and demand in the labor market for guys to load lumber onto flatbeds....
 
Maybe he should give that speech, not my call.

What he should do is listen to the American people. If the vast majority of people support SCHIP, then let it pass, don't dink around playing politics.

There is no good way to solve the debacle in Iraq, and you or are are just wishful thinking if we think we have a solution.

I am hopeful that our commander in chief and his military leaders can define a workable exit strategy. We have the best military in the world and they can do it. If the president would actually listen to his commanders, it would probably help.
 
Mark W,

Bravo!!!!!! guess it is tough to top that.....



Charlie, keep plugging.....anyone want to join Charlie, it seems pretty lopsided here in the debate. I mean Steve lobs a couple here and there but clearly there is not much grass routes support for that side of the isle.....



anyone?
 
The working poor are too busy working to reply, and they for sure have to scrimp and save to afford this accoutrement rich sport called duck hunting.

I am not alone, maybe on this forum I am.

By the way, bullying never solved anything. Ever notice many rich or famous bullies?
 
Sorry Charlie, there is 8 of us here in the lumberyard, I have a group policy that I pay 67% and the employees pay 33%. That 67% has gone up 400% over the last 5 years...where does that money come from? It comes out of profits. Profit is what it takes to maintain a business and pay expenses...hopefully at the end of the year, the profit will have a little on the plus side..if it doesn't, 8 people are out of work..but it's not just 8 people..it's the 20 or so kids, 6 wives and 12 dogs that are affected also. To make up for that 400% rise in insurance (caused by lawyers and government do-gooders) I have to raise prices..I raise prices and Charlie goes to the box store where they pay min. wage and no benefits because he is a "fiscal conservative" and he wants it CHEAP..doesn't matter that what he is buying there is sub standard to what I have, it has to be better because it's cheaper...it's cheaper because the box knows Charlie doesn't see the guy that loaded his trucks wife standing in the line to get food stamps or at the dr's office with her "wic" card getting the kids sniffles taken care of so doesn't feel guilty about supporting the box...out of sight out of mind ya know. Taxes which are another stealer of profits would be the way the national health care would be funded...Joe forktruck driver can't afford more taxes taken out of his min. wage paying job? Let's raise the min. wage..then we can tax him more..of course when wages are raised, the price of goods goes up accordingly so ol' Joe is back in the same boat..but his kids have insurance but now they have to wait 6 mo. to see a doctor because of the backlog..gotta go count some more nails...inventory day.
 
Harker,

Before you paint me with too broad a brush, you may want to reconsider. I am one of the small number of people that actually makes a conscious choice to pay more to keep my local small businesses in business.

Honestly, I don't patronize HD much, occasionally I will of they're the only place open and I need something NOW, but I'd say I've probably spent 1/1000th of my building and improving dollars at the big box stores.

Oh well, this is a go nowhere fast discussion.

Have a good weekend everyone.

Charlie
 
Charlie,

For the record, I'm don't really like this war and I am not sure it is winable. But, in my opinion it is better to try to fix this than to quit now.

But for the sake of arguement, let's assume you get your way and we pull our troops out next week. Obviously we would save a lot of $$$ and American lives in the short run. That would be great thing. But, in your opinion, what do you think would happen after that?

Would they figure it out, fix their own problems, and all would be well?

Would they go back to killing each other and leave us alone?

Would another brutal dictator take over and fund terrorism again?

In short, what do you think the long term implications are? Or, does that even matter?
 
It's an interesting thread. Too much to say about it, and not enough time to say all I'd like to say. But I think Charlie's initial point is well-put. How could we go to war and continue to support it without really attending to the cost and, at the same time, reject plausible preventative health care policies (that could possible reduce the outrageous premiums that lumber-yard owners pay) just because it costs too much?

It's tough to be a "fiscal conservative" and "social liberal" because you don't fit into easy politcal categories. And I think even those descriptions don't really fit what I think I'm hearing from Charlie.

I never know how to describe myself, so I usually just settle for a Bible-believing, pro-life, tree-hugging, feminist, tax-resistant, gun-toting, meat-eating, pro-America, anti-protectionist, free-speech advocate. There's usually a couple things in there to tick just about anyone off. Mainly, I just try to be a good dad, a good husband, a good neighbor, and to find out the facts the best I can before I vote. And I never accuse someone of not being an American just because they disagree with me politically.

Rick
 
I'm a liberal conservative and believe 99% of the US population is too. It's the far left and right factions that screw everything up because they have all the power.
 
I think the term being looked for is that most Americans tend to be pragmatic. That being said, I'd like to throw in a few thoughts of my own on this interesting line of thought.
I finished/retired after 30 years of military service in 1991 and my wife retired with her 30 in 1995. We have not attended an intelligence briefing since that time. As for why we are in Iraq I can only think that the President was presented with information, that none of us are privy to, and he made his decision based upon that information. Do I think he did this to hurt the United States, no! Just as I do not believe that the former President made his decisions with evil intent.
Now, for water in the South ..... growing faster than we have the resources to provide and **#@**## politicians who don't want to make decisions for the common good lest they loose their "jobs." So much for the Founding Fathers concept of a republican form of government with a few good men giving of themselves for the good all.
SCHIPS...... nice idea, but to expand it when I have read that 600,000 families with children eligible for the current program have failed to sign up. No! The fact that the House has made modifications to the bill that would make sure 24 year olds ( the children) where not part of the program and several other changes tells me this has little to do with the children. I have also retired as a teacher and I have known a bunch of the parents. They made no effort to take advantage of school programs when they were in school and now their children do the same. If someone else is not going to do the paperwork for them it's not going to be done, even if it is for their children. Which brings up parenting. It's not easy, but it is not a teachers job to make up for parents. Teaching the subject matter is hard enough.
Again, this is a nice train of thought that gives one some insight into what others are thinking. I just wish people would at least put done what state you are from, I promise that I will not try to track you down and invite myself to dinner.
Best to all, and have a safe and enjoyable hunting season, R.Bell, Chapel Hill, NC
 
How could we go to war and continue to support it without really attending to the cost and, at the same time, reject plausible preventative health care policies (that could possible reduce the outrageous premiums that lumber-yard owners pay) just because it costs too much?
Rick
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Rick,

I believe that it's the government's job to protect us from foreign threats and it is not their job to provide for our day to day needs. Iraq may not have been a direct threat to us but they failed to live up to the surrender treaty and were once again building their army. I believe that by taking out Sadam, we sent a message to other dictators that we will not tolerate their BS. I believe that it will pay dividends in South Korea, Iran, and other future hot spots.

As for our day to day needs, I think that the government should stay the heck out of it. No welfare, no food stamps, no WIC, no healthcare, etc. When my grandparents got married they were so poor that they spent one summer living underneath a big oak tree and drew their house in the dirt with a stick. When he came to CA he picked peaches, worked for the CCC, and then had a career as a turkey killer for Foster Farms. He worked hard, ate possums at times, took care of himself and his family and had a great life.

Now our great society deems it a good idea to give free gifts to millions who make poor choices. Why in the hell should my tax dollars go to support some high school girl and her kid? She made the choice, let her figure it out. If she can't, let the family or the church help out. If that doesn't work, let her get hungry. Nothing like a hungry belly to create some desire. And in a worst case scenario, take the kid and give it to a hard working family that will take care of it and give it a fair chance in the world.

Next we give welfare to millions of people that are too damn lazy to work. When they get free money, there is a huge disinsentive to work. Let them get a little hungry, lose their TV, VCR, Ipod, etc. It's sad to see help wanted signs all over town when we are paying so many to sit at home.

And for those that think it's hard to make a living, just look at all the migrant labor in this country. At least where I am located, it is common for the guys to pick grapes from 6AM until 2 PM six days per week and then send HALF of their paycheck back home to Mexico. If they can live on half of a paycheck, think what our working poor could do with they whole paycheck. The problem is that there's not many Americans willing to work as hard as the migrants, especially when the government programs pay so well.
 
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