NDR Wood Question

Edward Lindsay

New member
A partner of mine and I are looking into getting a saw mill. Not a small portable one but a fairly high production mill. My question is this for the wood guys on the forum. Will a specialty paneling, furniture grade lumber or cabinet stock, such as oak, yellow poplar, black cherry, persimmon, black walnut etc. sell? I would immaging the market for buyers would be fairly small as you would have to cater to higher end custom homes. Paneling would be one aspect of the mill. It would remain wide open to cut cross, ties oil platform mats etc.
 
Question one....where are you going to sell it?
2/ Where are you going to by the logs on a fairly reliable basis?
3/ What do you hope the ammortization will be on your equipment?
4/ Are you nuts?
There are a lot of small mills out there and they are all competing for the same wood and customers. It is a real dog eat dog business and you will really have to look honestly at your supply chain and potential customer base. The guys still in it have been at it longer than OSHA and regulations have been around so their operations were paid for before all the extra baggage of Govt. and Suttonites. Trucking is a sumbitch now with the price of fuel. Not trying to talk you out of it..just a couple things off the top of my head.
 
We are going to wholesale the lumber for the most part. I have a friend that is a lumber broker. Supply of raw materials won't be a problem. We are already set up to buy/sell, log, and manage timber land. If anything we will have too much supply of green logs. The big markets are not the "specialty type lumber" right now. Rough sawn cants are the way to go right now. We want to be flexible enough to supply what is in demand. Not much competition in the way of smaller operations in this part of the world. Basically, we see a huge supply, just working on the demand for finished products right now. Your last question is a BIG yes. It's mandatory to be nuts if you are in the land and timber business right now.
 
You may be better off taking it from the trunk to the customer with just a little wholesale for gas money. Get the word out through the net and local advertising. Check out www.theworkbench.com . They have been in business for a long time and have 3 stores now...2 in Michigan and one in South Bend Indiana. I met one of the grandsons of the founder when we took a class together ten or 12 years ago. They are very successful in what they do...mainly rough sawn specialty lumber for woodworkers. Yes, every day I think I must be nuts to have stayed in the lumber business...I wanted to be an English teacher 30 years ago. Just had our 35th class reunion and those who taught in good systems were looking at retiring in a year or two with hellacious benefits.
 
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Ed

By specialty paneling do you mean you will be making and selling plywood? There is demand for the services you mention, but I don't know how much. Since you are angling for the smaller personal service business model I think your success hinges on advertsising and building a client base. How big do you think the market is in your area? Birmingham or Huntsville has the population needed to build a business like you described but what about your area? Is it a good market for high end homes that incorporate custom millwork, high end trim and cabinetry, and architectural design? Are there custom cabinet shops that you could do business on a steady basis with to provide a consistent source of sales? Local hobby woodworkers would very much appreciate such a business but there aren't enough of those folks around to build a business on I think, unless you go the internet and shipping route. You won't be going to big suppliers and submitting bids, instead you'll have to take on small jobs and deal with the public who can be fickle and run you to death for a small sale.

Have you ever been to Hardwoods Inc. in Scottsboro? The owners there seem to be doing quite well and growing. It might be worth your while to take a look at their operation to get ideas. They provide hardwood plywood, kiln dried rough and S4S harwood, softwood, and exotics plus a lot of millwork such as crown, stair parts, etc., in addition to flooring. They may be a bigger outfit than what you are initially envisioning but they started out small and seem to have figured out how to be succesful in a small local market.

You might find it interesting that I just got back from a lumber run. Several weeks ago I got turned on to a place in Cullman that sells reclaimed lumber. They're called Southern Accents Architectural Antiques. Their business is taking all the old wood, millwork, doors, hardware, etc. from old homes, barns, hotels, offices, etc. that is being torn down and resale the "good stuff" to the public and even ship overseas. I've bought around 100 bd feet of old growth white oak in the past two weeks for a shop project I'm working on. I love going there because the owner turns me loose in the warehouse and lets me pick whatever I want. They have rough sawn and planed in evey size imaginable, 1 bys to beams. Heart pine, oak, walnut, poplar, cherry, etc. they have it. They also have about 1000 old doors and countless mantles in stock that you can buy as is or they will refinish for a fee. What I'm getting at here is they provide many services to their customers. That is why I think they are doing well. Well that and the fact they buy stuff that is going to go to the land fill and sell it for a tidy profit, e.g. glass door knobs with brass back plates go for over $100. I've been paying $3.50 a bd ft. for old growth white oak that has been denailed in sizes from 2x6 to 6x8 and I resaw them to get quartersawn. The point is they offer a big selection and I can find something that meets my needs and priced very competitively

You also may recall a few weeks ago I had a portable sawmill come to my street and cut up a bunch of red oak and cherry for me. That was a great service and I have a nice pile of lumber for future projects.

What this long winded post is try to convey is yes, there are folks out there, like me, who would like and appreciate a business like the one you described and the more services you can offer the more potential for customers repeat business. I don't think you can go high production in just sawing and make it. I think you will need a broader approach that includes things like custom sawing, kiln drying, planing, a large inventory for folks to poke around with as many species as you can get your hands on, no minimum order. I think you will need to offer end products like custom flooring for those folks that don't want Armstrong pre finished floors in their custon homes. I think you will want to have something for the guy that just wants a few select pieces for a small project. I think you will want to easily handle a large order to a cabinet shop with a short lead and turnaround time. I think you will want the capability to do custom millwork and set up displays of your work and get the interior decorators to start bringing their clients to your place of business. Overall what I see is a place of business that supplies to hobbyists, cabinet shops, and a place where folks can come to pick things to decorate their homes. The latter being where I think you will have the greatest opportunity.

I hope this meandering post is of some benefit or give you an idea or two. I'd love to see you make a go of it and would definitely make a trip down there to buy from you.
 
Edward, Its been a few years but I use to spend hours on the phone talking to sawmills and brokers. In fact my left ear is still a little flat. We had a pallet factory and made specialty pallets and fencing. One of the things I did is visit all the mills we bought from. After a while I could tell if a mill was going to survive or not. The mills I visited were from one man operations that cut a thousand feet a day to one that cut two hundred thousand feet a day on average. We were investigating building a mill to supply our needs. If you are going into the saw mill business you really have to sharpen your pencil. We are not talking about a high net profit business. A quite a few of the people I dealt with had gone broke at least once. As you know the lumber business is a boom and bust business.
A little rule of thumb that might help, is to determine the number of board feet per man. This works from a one man operation to ten man operation. If one man cuts a thousand feet a day and make a profit two men have to cut two thousand two hundred feet a day and so on to make a profit. Visit a many mills as possible and get ideas Also ask how many board feet they cut a day and count how many people they have. You will know if they are making money or going broke.
Theres a lot more to this business than can be expressed on this page so really sharpen you pencil before you stick a dime into it. Wish you well what ever you decide.
 
As a side note to what Eric was talking about, I have a builder here in our development that just went in partners with another guy who has been taking some of the old wood from gins, barns etc. and turning it into hardwood tongue a groove flooring. He hopes to use it in his houses and market it to other builders. The floors look great, and it seems to be a very popular thing to do right now. It lets the rich folks feel "eco-friendly" HA! HA! Shawn
 
Eric, thank for the tip on Hardwoods Inc. I would love to sit down and talk to them. Might work it out for Friday morning if I finish in Memphis early enough. We would be a dimensional operation and offer paneling/flooring that is solid hardwood. As far as paneling/flooring, we would have to go to B'ham, Huntsville, Montgomery etc. There are not enough high end houses in the black belt to support what we have on our mind. Thanks for all the tips from everyone and they are a few of the hundreds of questions I need to answer before we take the plunge. I am looking at some mills in TN Thursday and should know a little more by then. Right now we are looking at a mill, edger and resaw with a possibility of a planer/molder in the future. We already have some plans for solar dry kilns that are awesome. I'll be at Jason's Saturday so we can chat about it at break time. If Espey doesn't cause too much trouble.
 
look at bailey mills as one of the options. The ability to cut on the travel and the return adds to production capacity.

the other nice feature of this mill is the option and ease of cutting quartersawn stock, obviously netting you more for the same log.

More kerf waste than a band mill, but speed/quality do matter. Oh, no edging really needed since this saw does that for you too.
 
...I wanted to be an English teacher 30 years ago. Just had our 35th class reunion and those who taught in good systems were looking at retiring in a year or two with hellacious benefits.


I heard that's a good gig. BWAHAAHAAA!
 
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