Pond boxes

[Jamu]

Every year I make mental notes as to what can be simplified and improved in the hunting routine. This year, the todo is to figure out a nice inexpensive solution for pond boxes. There are many places that I hunt where the tide covers the feeding grounds by 2+feet of water. They are hard to get to since a boat can only get so far and the rig one takes to get to the spots would not work when the flood happens, if it’s even possible to get there. The floods are such that a coffin box will not work unfortunately as I have one in stock and would not care to float in it again. I’ve had great luck with momarsh boats and the logistics of transport and dragging is getting to be a deterrent. So I’m looking for ideas on pond boxes that can be easily built for reasonable bucks with the plan of stashing them near the gunning grounds. These will be left out for the season so hatch covers are a must and expense (time and money) are at a minimum to keep down the pain when they disappear or break down. I’m assuming both will happen.

They would need to hide man and dog and be very low profile/layout style. I have some comfort bending and making doors so I’m thinking that will be part of the solution.

I have looked at the “duckling” plans and they have potential. I’ve also seen an old van sant design that I like as well. Both can be constructed although they might be more effort and expense than I want to take on for the quantity I’m looking for (6ish). Sunfish conversions might also be an option since those hulls can be had for free with a close eye on marketplace. 1/4” ply construction is an option provided I can get enough beam and length without undo waste from standard sheets to make it stable for floating and gunning. My current thoughts are that it would need to be 9’ in length and 40-44” beam to handle gunner and beast.

I doubt that I am the first to face this conundrum and wondering it others here have found a solution?

Thanks
Jamus

 

[Steve Sanford]

Every year I make mental notes as to what can be simplified and improved in the hunting routine. This year, the todo is to figure out a nice inexpensive solution for pond boxes. There are many places that I hunt where the tide covers the feeding grounds by 2+feet of water. They are hard to get to since a boat can only get so far and the rig one takes to get to the spots would not work when the flood happens, if it’s even possible to get there. The floods are such that a coffin box will not work unfortunately as I have one in stock and would not care to float in it again. I’ve had great luck with momarsh boats and the logistics of transport and dragging is getting to be a deterrent. So I’m looking for ideas on pond boxes that can be easily built for reasonable bucks with the plan of stashing them near the gunning grounds. These will be left out for the season so hatch covers are a must and expense (time and money) are at a minimum to keep down the pain when they disappear or break down. I’m assuming both will happen.

They would need to hide man and dog and be very low profile/layout style. I have some comfort bending and making doors so I’m thinking that will be part of the solution.

I have looked at the “duckling” plans and they have potential. I’ve also seen an old van sant design that I like as well. Both can be constructed although they might be more effort and expense than I want to take on for the quantity I’m looking for (6ish). Sunfish conversions might also be an option since those hulls can be had for free with a close eye on marketplace. 1/4” ply construction is an option provided I can get enough beam and length without undo waste from standard sheets to make it stable for floating and gunning. My current thoughts are that it would need to be 9’ in length and 40-44” beam to handle gunner and beast.

I doubt that I am the first to face this conundrum and wondering it others here have found a solution?

Thanks
Jamus

Jamus~
I heartily endorse the Sunfish conversion - or, better yet, a Minifish conversion. The latter are hard to find but are smaller.

This with some polypropylene webbing would make a sweet grassboat. Or, just like the original Barnegat Bay Sneakboxes, simply toss some wrack (or ice) on her decks once you have her where you want her for the hunt.

One other thought: I use hard cockpit covers only for off-season storage. Fitted canvas lashed down over a ridge-pole (shovin' oar or a designated ridge - 1x3 on edge) can be quite weather-tight.




This may give you some helpful ideas:

https://stevenjaysanford.com/gilgo-gunboat-sunfish-conversion-to-layout-boat/

As I have mentioned previously here: IF I did it again (converting either Minifish or Sunfish) I would remove the decks. I would leave a 1.5 inch "shelf" around the gunwales to which I would fasten the new 1/4-inch AC plywood decks. I would add about 3 inches of crown to the new decks (via radiused bulkheads and knees) for better hide, more storage, and better drainage.

And, I would probably use a smaller (stock South Bay Duckboat) 'glass spray shield instead of the folding canvas. Among other benefits, that would make it easier for a hard cockpit cover if you prefer.
Another option: Snark/Sunflower: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snark_sailboat

I picked up one of these hulls (free) just before I left Long Island. I had been planning to build just what you are describing - but bequeathed it to a friend when I moved away from the Atlantic Tidewater.

Hope this helps!
SJS

 

[Josh Schwenger]

Every year I make mental notes as to what can be simplified and improved in the hunting routine. This year, the todo is to figure out a nice inexpensive solution for pond boxes. There are many places that I hunt where the tide covers the feeding grounds by 2+feet of water. They are hard to get to since a boat can only get so far and the rig one takes to get to the spots would not work when the flood happens, if it’s even possible to get there. The floods are such that a coffin box will not work unfortunately as I have one in stock and would not care to float in it again. I’ve had great luck with momarsh boats and the logistics of transport and dragging is getting to be a deterrent. So I’m looking for ideas on pond boxes that can be easily built for reasonable bucks with the plan of stashing them near the gunning grounds. These will be left out for the season so hatch covers are a must and expense (time and money) are at a minimum to keep down the pain when they disappear or break down. I’m assuming both will happen.

They would need to hide man and dog and be very low profile/layout style. I have some comfort bending and making doors so I’m thinking that will be part of the solution.

I have looked at the “duckling” plans and they have potential. I’ve also seen an old van sant design that I like as well. Both can be constructed although they might be more effort and expense than I want to take on for the quantity I’m looking for (6ish). Sunfish conversions might also be an option since those hulls can be had for free with a close eye on marketplace. 1/4” ply construction is an option provided I can get enough beam and length without undo waste from standard sheets to make it stable for floating and gunning. My current thoughts are that it would need to be 9’ in length and 40-44” beam to handle gunner and beast.

I doubt that I am the first to face this conundrum and wondering it others here have found a solution?

Thanks
Jamus

Do you live near NJ if so I have a sunfish hull you can have.

 

[Douglas Petro]

I think there are plans in Zac Taylor's Successful Waterfowling book for a pond box like you are describing.

 

[Steve Sanford]

I think there are plans in Zac Taylor's Successful Waterfowling book for a pond box like you are describing.

Douglas~

Indeed! One of my favorite waterfowling books.





All the best,

SJS

 

[Jamu]

thank you all for the responses. I had forgotten the Taylor design and I have the book downstairs. I will look that up. Does anyone have expereince gunning from it while it's floating? Stability is quite important. Also, are there designs out there that flow the decks down to the waterline? The momarsh boats have been very effective for me, one reason being the lack of hard chines (IMO) and decks that sit but 2-4" from the water.

Thank you also for the offer of the sunfish and I appreciate that. I'm up in massachusetts so will not be able to take you up on that offer. Again, most appreciated.

Steve, with regard to the comment on the canvas, I would agree that I would go this route, were it not for the fact that I might wish to keep a rig in the box (and being able to lock it would be desirable). Thanks again everyone.

 

[Richard Lathrop]

Douglas~

Indeed! One of my favorite waterfowling books.

View attachment 74188

View attachment 74189

All the best,

SJS

Just and aside but I would guess that those original plans date from the 1950's. Boat plans from that era seemed to like the Blueprint font style. You can see similar font style in the Chapelle Ranger plans on the site.

 

[roy brewington]

thank you all for the responses. I had forgotten the Taylor design and I have the book downstairs. I will look that up. Does anyone have expereince gunning from it while it's floating? Stability is quite important. Also, are there designs out there that flow the decks down to the waterline? The momarsh boats have been very effective for me, one reason being the lack of hard chines (IMO) and decks that sit but 2-4" from the water.

Thank you also for the offer of the sunfish and I appreciate that. I'm up in massachusetts so will not be able to take you up on that offer. Again, most appreciated.

Steve, with regard to the comment on the canvas, I would agree that I would go this route, were it not for the fact that I might wish to keep a rig in the box (and being able to lock it would be desirable). Thanks again everyone.

Stability in a layout style hull comes mainly from width so if your planning to hunt that way choose something with at least 36" bottom width. If your going to stand to shoot go 48" minimum. That's been my experience thru the years and many hulls, aluminum and fiberglass. That of course if hulls are floating. You can overcome the instability of a to narrow hull by getting it onto or into heavy vegetation or on bottom.

 

[Steve Sanford]

Stability in a layout style hull comes mainly from width so if your planning to hunt that way choose something with at least 36" bottom width. If your going to stand to shoot go 48" minimum. That's been my experience thru the years and many hulls, aluminum and fiberglass. That of course if hulls are floating. You can overcome the instability of a to narrow hull by getting it onto or into heavy vegetation or on bottom.

re Beam Most of my canoes are 35 or 36 inches max width - with flat bottoms. If solo, I only shoot from them over the bow. A couple of broadsides have given this old heart a run for its money.

Long Island grassboats and scooters are typically between 42 and 44 inches beam. Had I built a pond box, I would have gone with 9 or 10 feet LOA with a 42-inch beam.

All the best,

SJS

 

[Jamu]

Thank you for all of the responses and thoughts. I will mostly be shooting prone and have the same rough dimensions in mind for loa and beam. I do believe that a boat like this would be very possible with stitch and glue and 10’x5’ marine ply sheets. However I have not yet seen plans and while I am tempted by going down the worm hole of boat design, need to remind myself of the primary mission of minimum expense and effort for a box that will stay in the marsh.

at the moment I am trying to see if I can lay my hands on a hull for an amc Minifish. The information I have seen is conflicting, so this may it may not be the “sailfish” hull that Steve had recommended prior. Regardless thank you Steve for the recommendation as I had started to develop tunnel vision on sunfish conversions.

If I can get one for a reasonable price I’ll start a new thread on the conversion.

Thanks all for the help
Jamus

 

[Steve Sanford]

Thank you for all of the responses and thoughts. I will mostly be shooting prone and have the same rough dimensions in mind for loa and beam. I do believe that a boat like this would be very possible with stitch and glue and 10’x5’ marine ply sheets. However I have not yet seen plans and while I am tempted by going down the worm hole of boat design, need to remind myself of the primary mission of minimum expense and effort for a box that will stay in the marsh.

at the moment I am trying to see if I can lay my hands on a hull for an amc Minifish. The information I have seen is conflicting, so this may it may not be the “sailfish” hull that Steve had recommended prior. Regardless thank you Steve for the recommendation as I had started to develop tunnel vision on sunfish conversions.

If I can get one for a reasonable price I’ll start a new thread on the conversion.

Thanks all for the help
Jamus

Jamus~

Just last night I saw a Minifish hull for $50 - in Massachusetts (Facebook Marketplace). And, I am not sure of the relationship between Sailfish (older?) and Minifish (newer?).

Happy hunting!

SJS

 

[Jamu]

I am watching that posting as well and am prepared to jump into the truck at a moments notice. Regarding the difference between the boats I have read that the mini fish had a lighter layup than the sailfish and both sail fish and minifish are scaled down from the sunfish. What I have not been able to determine is whether the sailfish and minifish are the same hulls (although certainly very close if not identical).

 

[Tony hall]

I had converted a sunfish to “sneak boat”. I left most of front deck and filled w pour foam. Notched the back for outboard (never really used it as anything over 5hp would make the bottom wavy trying to push it past hulls speed). Knowing what I know now, I would heed Steve’s thoughts about ditching a bunch of deck since the original deck is super low and supported by wet carpenter ant styrofoam. The boat I built was waaaaay too heavy. I think a lightened up version could be wonderful to pull through mud, across grass.

 

[Jamu]

Hello Tony. Thanks for the pics of the build and your comments. Very nice job and it looks like it was a highly effective boat once done. If I indeed going down the route of a sunfish hull my plan would be to take 2-3 feet off the transom off the bat and then most of the deck (and certainly all foam). The beam is a bit more than I’d like for my purposes and the availability of the hulls is a big plus. Curious as to what you think the bare hull might weigh with all deck removed and 3 feet off the stern? Advertised weight for the finished hulls from the mfg was something like 125-140 pounds I believe.

Thx
Jamus

 

[Steve Sanford]

Jamus~

Indeed - way more Sunfish than Minifish out there. Either way, I would hesitate to shorten the hull too much. This photo shows a full hull without replacing the decks or adding (much) crown.



For rowing vessels, the "entry" (up forward) and "run" (astern) are very important viz. the underwater shape. The hull should leave the water (fully laden) before the transom. Most cartoppers etc are designed for outboard power and planing - but are very cranky to row or pole. Many the underwater shape of the hull will afford pleasing and efficient rowing. (see profile below)


The 2 bulkheads - fore and aft of the cockpit eastablish the crown (shoiuld be about 3"). The 2 quarter knees should be fitted once the bulkheads and purlins (longitudinal frames either side of the cockpit) are in place.



So you may be able to lop off a foot or so - but be cautious. One benefit of removing the stern is that you will need to make a new one. You can design the new crown into its upper edge. If you will not be powering this vessel, you can make a new transom out of 1/2-inch - or even 1/4-inch AC plywood. FYI: The bevels can be "interesting"....

I am not sure if I sent this link: https://stevenjaysanford.com/sunfish-to-gunning-boat/

Note that the finished weight is 142 pounds. I never did weigh the Sailfish/Minifish conversion.

Finally - I believe I did not add a skeg to either conversion. If I were going to row a lot, I would probably add one. When you have the deck off, you might want to design and make one - and add it if you see the need/benefit after your sea trials. I would go so far as to bore the 2 holes you would need - then fill and mark them. I would use 2 #10 flathead machine screws - with fender washers and nuts inside the hull. The skeg - which can be just 1-inch treated SYP or PVC "lumber" (no strength is needed) - can be sealed with 2 coats of epoxy - then bedded in 3M 5200 if/when you decide to add it. This skeg is on my sneakbox RED-LEG. It rows beautifully.



Hope this helps!

SJS

 

[Dave Diefenderfer]

Back when I was considering a conversion, I thought the MC Scow/Melges hull was what I would use. It has a broad bow, and affords more deck space for decoys. More of a performance sailing hull, so perhaps closer to a Laser with respect as a "planning" hull, and therefore might draw less which was the primary goal for me.