Saying hello and looking for some armchair boatbuilding opinions

C

Caroline Casals

New member
Good morning all!

After a phenomenal sea duck hunt last fall with Troy here in coastal Maine - point of fact my first duck hunt - I'm officially hooked. Troy is also responsible for getting me here to this forum, so just remember, it's all his fault.

Well my new-found interest in duck hunting combined with a pining for getting back on the water and I'm sure you all can guess where this is going... I want to build a boat.

Full disclosure, I'm solidly in the 'contemplative' stage of the process here. This will likely be a project for this coming winter (2020! since when is 2020 a real year? Feels like science fiction). In the meantime I've too much gardening, fishing, and generally pretending like 6 months of winter isn't on the horizon to do. BUT! Scheming... now there's plenty of time for that this summer.

So! Down to the part I'd love some thoughts from you all on, which boat? There's a piece of me that wants to zip straight to a dedicated duck boat. That will happen someday, but as I am completely boatless and the household is split solidly into the boats-are-life and no-boats-in-my-house factions, something with some more all around utility is probably first up. Things I'm hoping to do with it, in no particular order:
  • Duck hunting (obviously)
  • Messing about, especially with visitors. 4-5 people and a dog would be common
  • Fishing
  • Lobstering(?) I plan to apply for my rec. license
  • Island hopping (looking for something beachable)
  • River and lake use as well as coastal
Other requirements:
  • trailerable by my faithful little 4 cylinder tonka truck. (and by this I mean a honda element) It's more worthy than it has any right to be, but it's still a very small little vehicle.
  • Buildable by a, well not complete novice woodworker, but a novice boat builder. A design that requires some serious lofting might be beyond me.

Now I realize I'm treading dangerously into "all things in all scenarios" category. I am not expecting this to be 'the best' at any of those categories. My two top contenders currently are:
Devlin Candlefish 16
Chesapeake Light Craft Peeler skiff

Totally open to other designs though!

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and for letting me sneak in here [whistle]
-Caroline
 
Welcome to Duckboats Caroline! This is a great website and the folk here are very knowledgeable. I don't have any suggestions boat wise but my dad built two CLC kayaks and he found the plans very easy to follow and he did a great job on the boats. Granted, he is a skilled woodworker but he said that he found the CLC boat plans quite easy to follow.

I don't know what the weight rating is on those boats as I didn't read through and just looked at the pictures but I would say that 4-5 people in either of those boats is probably pushing it. I am sure that other people more knowledgeable about boats than me will chime in but down here in FL we see A LOT of over crowded/over loaded boats and there is usually a couple of sinkings (not very often deaths) every summer so I look at those two boats and wonder if 4-5 people is too much.

I don't know if there are classes up your way but I remember my dad going to Maine to participate in a strip canoe building class. The class he was a part of was a group effort and at the end, they drew straws for who got the canoe (they just had to pay for the supplies). Maybe there are classes near you that might offer something like that? It would give you a chance to get some experience and see if it is something that you really would like to do....

Anyway, welcome to the site!!!! There are a lot of people on here that should be able to offer really good advice.

Dani
 
Hi Dani, thanks so much! Very happy to be here.

Good to hear on the CLC kits, they definitely seemed geared towards non-boat builders. Those kayaks are an absolute beauty! Several folks around here have built them frequency of appearance at boat launches are any measure. They definitely deserve all the oooohhs and ahhhhs they receive.

Yeah fair point on capacity. Overloading is no good and certainly tempting (ahhh, it'll be fiiiine!) - the water conditions would very much play into my comfort bringing a larger crew aboard. Puttering around a pond on a calm day is a very different beast than a choppy day in the Atlantic! That said, I was very much surprised by both skiffs' capacity. From CLC on the peeler (which underwent coast guard safety testing - I'm told unusual in a small craft plan):

The Peeler Skiff's displacement is about 1300 pounds. The payload is 1000 pounds, including persons, motor, fuel, battery, and gear. According to Coast Guard guidelines, if you have a 15hp 4-stroke engine, fuel, and battery, you have 840 pounds left over for crew and gear. So what you can safely (and legally) load into a Peeler Skiff that's standing ready at the dock is 840 pounds.
Click to expand...

The candlefish appears to have less displacement, so that would probably need to be 3 persons with chop and 4 on flat water. There is a larger version (18) that may be a better fit for me... (even if not for my shop.)

Now obviously persons come in many shapes and sizes, but for the usual suspects, we'd be well within safe limits with that crew and very minimal gear.

So perhaps I've simply confirmation biased my way towards thinking this would work. Thus the second opinions!
 
Well I havent built one, but a number of people on this forum have built Devlin boats. Stitch and Glue is a novice friendly technique. go to main index on this site and look at Reader's Rigs for ideas.
Good luck
 
Thanks Steve for the tip! Sadly I must be doing something wrong (or not have permissions?) but that area of the forum is blank for me. I just see a message about future enhancements. Something to look forward to I suppose!
 
Hello Miss Caroline!

I'm located down South so I've built pirogues and a couple of wooden mud boats but these folks on Duckboats.net have boat building and refurbishing boats down to a fine art!

Given the list of uses that you made have you looked at the Lumberyard Skiff? Simple, stable, economical on the pocketbook to build and light enough to trailer. Just a thought! Welcome aboard!
 
Based on your wants... I would say.. the Devlin Snowgoose, Cackler or Honker. Building a small to large boat is all the same, other than flipping it.. If you want to lobster, you are obviously looking at the Atlantic.. so I would say bigger is always better...
 
Taylor - hey now, there's a great working skiff! I've seen lots of references to a "LYS" ... I'm guessing that's the beastie there! Mystery decoded.
Phil - I'm glad you mentioned those, I had initially glossed over them as being "too ducky" for the other purposes I had in mind, but on closer inspection, perhaps not so. I'm sad to say that the honker is just too much boat for my vehicle but the snow goose looks terrific. Thanks :)

Troy! Ha, great photos from a great hunt. Beats my cell shots for sure :)
You may have hit on the perfect solution with that scaup... why not two boats? Let the layout boat do what it does best, and something more skiffy for skiff work (and a winter project). I'll send ya a DM to talk having a look at that boat of yours...

Since musing is fun and all that, here's a few sketches of both a skiff (candlefish in this case, but same idea all around for peeler or LYS) and the snow goose in their 'duck coats'. I am definitely anticipating doing some custom canvas in any case.


View attachment candlefish-re.jpg

View attachment snowgoose-re.jpg
 
Looks like you have a lot of ideas bouncing around, that is fun. A couple comments.. On the 4-5 people - that is a lot of people for a boat less than 20 feet. None of the boats you are talking are going to accommodate that well. I have had a snowgoose for nearly 20 years and I'm unhappy with 3 and a dog, it is fine, but not great.

On the beaching you have to think hard on that and incorporate it into the build. A stitch and glue boat that gets its integrity from the wood has to maintain the wood's dryness, if you are beaching one routinely you are going to beat the living piss out of it. Think soft plywood under a hard epoxy and glass shell. To build for beaching, then need to be build with a much heavier glass layup. Not a big deal at all, but that adds a lot of weight. Devlin's plans call for very minimal fiberglass, usually 2 layers of 6 ounce, I'd want more like 2 of 12 (I have one of kevlar and one of glass, which has been OK).

I have you now in a 20' boat for the 4-5 people and heavy with a lot of extra glass. :). Tons of options, I'd be looking at a Honker.

If you are ever driving 84 through Connecticut give a call and we can put the snowgoose into a lake to give you a feel for the size.

Build is very doable.
 
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Tod - yeah... I'm getting that sense from you all... (4/5 being just too much). Thank you for the reality check. You and Dani. Given that "lots of people" is a "want" and the tow rating is a hard fact, I think I'll have to put off dreams of my big group outings for the day I own a proper truck. Sticking my head in the proverbial sand won't make my boat bigger or transmission tougher!

As for beaching wear, that's good to know. I was planning on heavily glassing in strips the contact points but I hadn't thought about pinpoint wear causing ingress and lamination failure. Is that something that some decent attention to wear points and a dose of preventative maintenance would stop or a kind of "matter of time, sneaks up on you that it's all spongy now" issue?

If I'm ever in CT I will probably take you up on that offer! Glad to her you are happy with yours (another check in the snowgoose tally :p )
 
I beach my honker and scaup regularly (on sand) with NO wear on the hull. I do have 3/4" keelsons made from composite decking. I have 12 oz on the Honker and 20oz on the Scaup. The paint (FME) isn't even worn off. The dark grey boat is the Honker (Stretched to 19'3"x 91" with 27" sides and a different top deck than plans) and the grassed up boat is the Devlin Scaup, (stretched to 17', and I added 2" to the sides, moved the motor mount to a traditional position, and of course, and TDB style top deck)


View attachment IMG_20160416_155454166_HDR.jpgView attachment IMG_0428 (2).jpgView attachment IMG_20170703_171012284.jpg

View attachment IMG_20160416_155454166_HDR.jpg
 
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Phil Nowack said:
I beach my honker and scaup regularly (on sand) with NO wear on the hull. I do have 3/4" keelsons made from composite decking. I have 12 oz on the Honker and 20oz on the Scaup. The paint (FME) isn't even worn off. The dark grey boat is the Honker (Stretched to 19'3"x 91" with 27" sides and a different top deck than plans) and the grassed up boat is the Devlin Scaup, (stretched to 17', and I added 2" to the sides, moved the motor mount to a traditional position, and of course, and TDB style top deck)
Click to expand...

She is in coastal New England which means rocks to me. If she is talking about sandy beaches, I'm in 97% agreement with you. I beach on sand and loose shell all the time with the same results as you, but rocks are tough, especially ledge. Tides also add difficulty in that they don't withdraw evenly, they can go down a couple/few inches in an instant with the swell, which leaves your vessel on the rocks (which beats the piss out of it pushing it free). Generally coastal situations are a lot less forgiving than even the big lakes.
 
Caroline Casals said:
Tod - yeah... I'm getting that sense from you all... (4/5 being just too much). Thank you for the reality check. You and Dani. Given that "lots of people" is a "want" and the tow rating is a hard fact, I think I'll have to put off dreams of my big group outings for the day I own a proper truck. Sticking my head in the proverbial sand won't make my boat bigger or transmission tougher!

As for beaching wear, that's good to know. I was planning on heavily glassing in strips the contact points but I hadn't thought about pinpoint wear causing ingress and lamination failure. Is that something that some decent attention to wear points and a dose of preventative maintenance would stop or a kind of "matter of time, sneaks up on you that it's all spongy now" issue?

If I'm ever in CT I will probably take you up on that offer! Glad to her you are happy with yours (another check in the snowgoose tally :p )
Click to expand...

Depending on your use the solution could just be thick glass and repairs every few/several years. You don't ever want to intentionally get the plywood wet, since it doesn't dry out well through a breach. A cut doesn't exactly suck water in fast since the fibers are likely crushed where the glass is cut, but you don't want to leave breaches in the hull and not attend to them. Attending to them can be as simple as letting them dry out and wiping epoxy on it until a proper fix.

Get a truck on the list, they are important! :). See all kinds of useful advice today from me.

Folks here usually put the runners on the hull and don't glass them, but face with aluminum or stainless. It works quite well and it is amazing how many times the runner or strake catches the damage and not the hull.

Since you are in a thinking kind of mode, think about buying Renn Tolman's book. His boats are a different style of stitch and glue that you may find interesting, but the real info of use to you is how he builds the boats for beaching in Alaska. Look at how he builds his strakes and his glass layup to get you where you want IF you plan on working around rocks and not sand.
 
Considering the$$$ cost & your inability for that type of work. I Would Meet Up With AN Experence Duck Hunter in your area, & look for some kind of used fiberglass boat that would fit the bill, an make that into your hunting & fishing& ALL AROUND BOAT.
 
tod osier said:
Phil Nowack said:
I beach my honker and scaup regularly (on sand) with NO wear on the hull. I do have 3/4" keelsons made from composite decking. I have 12 oz on the Honker and 20oz on the Scaup. The paint (FME) isn't even worn off. The dark grey boat is the Honker (Stretched to 19'3"x 91" with 27" sides and a different top deck than plans) and the grassed up boat is the Devlin Scaup, (stretched to 17', and I added 2" to the sides, moved the motor mount to a traditional position, and of course, and TDB style top deck)
Click to expand...

She is in coastal New England which means rocks to me. If she is talking about sandy beaches, I'm in 97% agreement with you. I beach on sand and loose shell all the time with the same results as you, but rocks are tough, especially ledge. Tides also add difficulty in that they don't withdraw evenly, they can go down a couple/few inches in an instant with the swell, which leaves your vessel on the rocks (which beats the piss out of it pushing it free). Generally coastal situations are a lot less forgiving than even the big lakes.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I understand that, and that is why I did specify sand. If you are getting beat up on rocks... 130 oz of biax, and what... 40 oz Kevlar? Based upon the rock damage on my Duckwater... that might hold up... LOL... Seriously...many deep dings and gouges in the .190 aluminum.
 
tod osier said:
Are those drawings crayon? If yes, you may have a real future here.
Click to expand...

NO.. that would put her above our level.

Paul- there nothing hard about doing stitch and glue if she has the inclination and desire to build, and then it will be what she wants. I don't think I would classify a fiberglass boat as an all around. vessel.. there is no such thing! Besides the most expensive part is the outboard. You never know what you are getting when you buy used. I would say epoxy over wood will hold up better than gel coat and glass against rocks... at least in ones that make it affordable. My Scaup, and the last BBIII that I did ran about $2300 for wood and epoxy. Add $300-$500 for lights, fuel tank and wiring... $1800 for a new Galv trailer. New outboards.. ? OUCH! or I put a used rebuilt 50HP on for $2k. and have bought a used 2004 F50 for $3400... Pretty much the same for my Honker except my materials were $4500, and the new galv trailer I put under her in 2017 was $2800. Expensive is relative to the value you place on it, as well as ones disposable income. Long and short, if going with a used motor and new trailer, the build will run between $6500-$10,000 pending also on which boat. If you find a used trailer.. then you can save ALOT of money.

Caroline- if you do venture down the stitch-n-glue path, I would recommend getting Sam Devlin's book.
View attachment IMG_20190522_163159175.jpg
 
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Phil and Tod - Thank you! Great thoughts... yeah the great sand beaches of Maine are... well they're tiny. Teeny tiny little dots. With lots of cold, pale people on them. So rocks and 'winkles and all sorts of abuse are definitely likely. Your description of the fix puts me at ease. I think some runners might be just the ticket too. That and a bit of dutiful maintenance and care when picking a spot to pull the boat up should let me enjoy our shores without too much anxiety. Growing up we used to beach our inflatable dinghy regularly and we never popped her so there's at least a sliver of hope there.

Drawings are pastels... half points? :p

Tod I will definitely look into Renn Tolman's book (A skiff for all seasons?). Reading never hurt a project :)

Paul - now see that would be the practical solution. Can't have none of that! Truth be told, there's a boat getting built this winter in my shop. I only have to chose what it looks like. As for ability, everyone who's ever built a boat started off not having built one. I'm not worried at all about the prospect of building a stitch and glue, but the old timers will chuckle and remind me it's not real boat building. I'm learning to be wary of that chuckle...

Cheers,
Caroline
 
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