Smallest natural retriever?
- Thread starter Andy Grant
- Start date
Ken R
Active member
Gary has an American Water Spaniel , a female.
Another vote for the AWS
My AWS is 4 years old and still a puppy around the house. Greets everyone he sees and is great with other dogs. When we hunt, he is all business. It's like he is 2 different dogs.
He is collar conditioned but not force fetched. He will pick up spit if I tell him to. He came preloaded with upland talent. We worked on retrieving 80% and upland 20%.
He has AKC Spaniel Senior Hunter title and AKC Junior Retriever Title. He is all I could have possibly hoped for when I got him. www.littlebrownieskennel.com
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Rich Newman
Active member
I would visit the RTF Retriever Training Forum. Opions are like Assholes everyone has one. Seems everyone that has ever owned a dog is an expert. The dog world is full of smoke and mirrors. Contact your local Retriever club and see the dogs work. A Hunting Retriever Club holds a Test where you will be able to see all the retrievers in action. Get the best breeding you can. This will ensure the natural talent in a dog you are looking for, and for a beginer this will be a huge step in the right direction. In my limited experience with dogs I have learned that rare breeds are rare for a reason. Thats my opinion.
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Eddie Kershaw
Guest
Travis
Lets get something straight mate in all the posts in this thread I have stated in my view , I have not said you have,nt got to use a e-coller ,
I totaly dislike any form of coller, what I did say, is as much as Todd dislikes the wing decoys and what he would like to do with them I dislike the e- collers and to hell with them and I still say if you have got to use a coller to train a dog well here is my view again , you should,nt have one.
How would you like me to kick your butt every time you did,nt do what I said, because that is the message you are giving to the dog. I would,nt call that building a bond with your pup, I would call that scaring the hell out of him or her
In my view again if you have got a dog of the right breeding IE a working breed there should be no need for the use of these tools and making a dog force fetch, it should retrieve automaticly with the desire to please the master. Also I dont profess to be a a exspert on training dogs but considering I have been training dogs all my life and now Im 65 years of age well that has got to say something. I gets results from my way of training and and that is all that matters to me, so if you want to use a e-coller for your training go ahead, but for me you can shove it where the sun doe,nt shine.
Take care and God Bless
Eddie and Amber
Its all about Building that Bond.
,
Lets get something straight mate in all the posts in this thread I have stated in my view , I have not said you have,nt got to use a e-coller ,
I totaly dislike any form of coller, what I did say, is as much as Todd dislikes the wing decoys and what he would like to do with them I dislike the e- collers and to hell with them and I still say if you have got to use a coller to train a dog well here is my view again , you should,nt have one.
How would you like me to kick your butt every time you did,nt do what I said, because that is the message you are giving to the dog. I would,nt call that building a bond with your pup, I would call that scaring the hell out of him or her
In my view again if you have got a dog of the right breeding IE a working breed there should be no need for the use of these tools and making a dog force fetch, it should retrieve automaticly with the desire to please the master. Also I dont profess to be a a exspert on training dogs but considering I have been training dogs all my life and now Im 65 years of age well that has got to say something. I gets results from my way of training and and that is all that matters to me, so if you want to use a e-coller for your training go ahead, but for me you can shove it where the sun doe,nt shine.
Take care and God Bless
Eddie and Amber
Its all about Building that Bond.
,
Rich Newman
Active member
Eddie your offside on this one.
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Eddie Kershaw
Guest
Rich
No mate Im not offside I have my views which Im entited to and I will stick to my guns, if anybody is offside it is Jim boyer for starting this argument
because he as not read the thread properly, where in any of my posts can you see where I have stated the Building of that Bond replaces the E-caller.
What I did say is, as much as Todd dislikes the winged decoys and what he would like to do with them I would like to do the same with E -collers, to hell with them. And that it my view so go back and read this thead properly mate and then you will see where Im coming from and who is offside. THank you
Take care and God Bless
Eddie and Amber
Its all about Building that Bond.
No mate Im not offside I have my views which Im entited to and I will stick to my guns, if anybody is offside it is Jim boyer for starting this argument
because he as not read the thread properly, where in any of my posts can you see where I have stated the Building of that Bond replaces the E-caller.
What I did say is, as much as Todd dislikes the winged decoys and what he would like to do with them I would like to do the same with E -collers, to hell with them. And that it my view so go back and read this thead properly mate and then you will see where Im coming from and who is offside. THank you
Take care and God Bless
Eddie and Amber
Its all about Building that Bond.
travis bruce
Active member
Again, your post prove my point... your an expert about something you have never done, nor apprently understand. I have trained dogs with and without an ecollar. I have trained dogs that weren't forced, and have trained dogs that where. I've also trained several dogs someone else screwed up their force and/or their collar condtioning. But ive also trained dogs that where abused by a rope... more that have been neglected or abadoned, and even more that someone simply didnt spend any time with them.
If you think an ecollar is simply a way to kick a dogs butt, and that forced dogs only retreive because they are made too, you have no understanding of either. if its your personal choice, lite out. If your as close minded and ill tempered with your dogs as you have been with this thread, then its probably for the better.
My 13 year old son (hes 14 now), just went 4 out of 6 tests this fall for his hunting retriever championship (6 out of 8 for the season) with his dog spooky puppy. We called her spooky puppy because we never got around to giving her a name for a while, we'd just say, go get that spooky puppy out. This was literally the spookiest dog Ive ever seen, in fact when she learned remote sit, she'd lock up and freeze... you had to touch her to re-set her. Thru patience, this dog was ob trained, collar condtioned, and forced. The spookiest dog you've ever seen, squeels with delight when she sees her collar come out... because its time to go to work. Shes runs, and hunts, and trains, almost flawlessly for a 14 year old kid. The word bond between that dog and kid is no where close to sufficent... all of our dogs (and client dogs) are like that. It sounds like the end of the world when the collars come out and its time to go train. Scared? Only thing they are scared of they wont get their turn.
If I had a client ask me to train their dog without a collar. Id decline. Not because I couldn't do it. Because I wouldn't train a dog without the most effective tools adviable to me. Because I wouldn't handicap myself with pre concieved notions. id do whatever it took, to do the best, quickest, and most importantly most humane way to train a dog. i train because I enjoy it, and handicapping a dog from the begining over preconcieved notions isn't enjoyable for me, and certainly not for the dog.
btw, force fetch is actually a process of condtioning a dog to pressure, more so than to make a dog retreive. But after being around several hundred labs (and several hundred british labs), ive seen my share of dogs of all breds that wont deliver to hand, and that will. travis
If you think an ecollar is simply a way to kick a dogs butt, and that forced dogs only retreive because they are made too, you have no understanding of either. if its your personal choice, lite out. If your as close minded and ill tempered with your dogs as you have been with this thread, then its probably for the better.
My 13 year old son (hes 14 now), just went 4 out of 6 tests this fall for his hunting retriever championship (6 out of 8 for the season) with his dog spooky puppy. We called her spooky puppy because we never got around to giving her a name for a while, we'd just say, go get that spooky puppy out. This was literally the spookiest dog Ive ever seen, in fact when she learned remote sit, she'd lock up and freeze... you had to touch her to re-set her. Thru patience, this dog was ob trained, collar condtioned, and forced. The spookiest dog you've ever seen, squeels with delight when she sees her collar come out... because its time to go to work. Shes runs, and hunts, and trains, almost flawlessly for a 14 year old kid. The word bond between that dog and kid is no where close to sufficent... all of our dogs (and client dogs) are like that. It sounds like the end of the world when the collars come out and its time to go train. Scared? Only thing they are scared of they wont get their turn.
If I had a client ask me to train their dog without a collar. Id decline. Not because I couldn't do it. Because I wouldn't train a dog without the most effective tools adviable to me. Because I wouldn't handicap myself with pre concieved notions. id do whatever it took, to do the best, quickest, and most importantly most humane way to train a dog. i train because I enjoy it, and handicapping a dog from the begining over preconcieved notions isn't enjoyable for me, and certainly not for the dog.
btw, force fetch is actually a process of condtioning a dog to pressure, more so than to make a dog retreive. But after being around several hundred labs (and several hundred british labs), ive seen my share of dogs of all breds that wont deliver to hand, and that will. travis
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Eddie Kershaw
Guest
Travis
Im sorry mate I dont swollow all that bullshit you are giving me, and Im getting to old in the tooth to swallow it, so you train your dogs the way you do and being a exspert like you are, it is pointless trying to reason with you because you are only going to come back with more bullshill, so lets leave it at that.
Take care and God Bless
Eddie and Amber
Its all about Building that Bond.
Im sorry mate I dont swollow all that bullshit you are giving me, and Im getting to old in the tooth to swallow it, so you train your dogs the way you do and being a exspert like you are, it is pointless trying to reason with you because you are only going to come back with more bullshill, so lets leave it at that.
Take care and God Bless
Eddie and Amber
Its all about Building that Bond.
Jim Boyer
Active member
Eddie, I have obviously struck a sore spot with you. However, your opinion seems to be driven by a lack of 1) "not knowing me" and 2) being rather clueless about
the proper use of an e-collar in a retriever training program.
The analogy of "would you like me to kick your butt every time you didn't do what I said" is totally absurd.
Secondly, stating the e-collar somehow destroys or inhibits "bond building" is pure rubbish.
You're 65 and I'm 72......what has that got to do with disagreeing? I have four content, happy, well trained retrievers that would go "through a wall" for me......this wasn't accomplished with "smoke and mirrors". They are my constant companions and live in our house.
Sometimes, I think it is just better to not argue and simply state, "I am happy with what I do." and let it go.
The topic was about finding a good, small retriever.
"Someone" decided to add their input on the proper way to train a dog while taking to task those using a different approach. That's the Internet.
Then again, there's a very old saying that seems quite appropriate in this instance, "A whale never gets harpooned until he comes up to spout."
edit: Andy.....Sorry for the "highjack".
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travis bruce
Active member
Welp mate, never figured you to budge an inch in the first place. Really don't care if you do. But others read these forms and form opinions from the only information they may have on a subject. Only reason i spent the time to post is for them to clear up your misleading and emotional opinions stated as fact.
Im only 40. But I learned at age 17 to quit arguing with people just for the sake of aruging... but again, if it works for you lite out. travis
Im only 40. But I learned at age 17 to quit arguing with people just for the sake of aruging... but again, if it works for you lite out. travis
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Eddie Kershaw
Guest
Travis
You have just proved a point, you are 40 years old and you are a exspert with all the exspereance at training dogs, you said in your last post that you have been around 100,s of American and British labs, would you mind telling me, what british labs you have been around and what kennells they came from, and no bullshit mate because I can verifie it, as Im incontact with the captain of the Englad gundog team John Halstead and He also owns the Drakeshead kennels and this is not to be argumentive, I just dont like bullshit.
Take care and God Bless
Eddie and Amber
Its all about Building that Bond.
You have just proved a point, you are 40 years old and you are a exspert with all the exspereance at training dogs, you said in your last post that you have been around 100,s of American and British labs, would you mind telling me, what british labs you have been around and what kennells they came from, and no bullshit mate because I can verifie it, as Im incontact with the captain of the Englad gundog team John Halstead and He also owns the Drakeshead kennels and this is not to be argumentive, I just dont like bullshit.
Take care and God Bless
Eddie and Amber
Its all about Building that Bond.
E
Eddie Kershaw
Guest
Jim
you did it a sore point with me because in my view you missed read my post in the first place, I dont like any form of a coller on a dog and I hate E-collers, just like todd and a few others dispize wing decoys I feel the same about e-collers, having spent all my life training dogs without the use of a coller, I do understand the way are two countrys train their dogs are very different but at the same time there is a lot of guys in your country that train their dogs the way I do and to name just two of them are ML bob Furia and George W. I will make a quote by one of you guys that American dogs tend to be very Hyper and run around as if they have been given a shot of steroids and that is why a lot of you guys like the English dogs because they are so carm, I do think part of this is down to the Breeding but I also think that part of it is the way we train our dogs.
Take care and God Bless
Eddie and Amber
Its all about Building that Bond.
you did it a sore point with me because in my view you missed read my post in the first place, I dont like any form of a coller on a dog and I hate E-collers, just like todd and a few others dispize wing decoys I feel the same about e-collers, having spent all my life training dogs without the use of a coller, I do understand the way are two countrys train their dogs are very different but at the same time there is a lot of guys in your country that train their dogs the way I do and to name just two of them are ML bob Furia and George W. I will make a quote by one of you guys that American dogs tend to be very Hyper and run around as if they have been given a shot of steroids and that is why a lot of you guys like the English dogs because they are so carm, I do think part of this is down to the Breeding but I also think that part of it is the way we train our dogs.
Take care and God Bless
Eddie and Amber
Its all about Building that Bond.
Wow....
Sorry your thread got off track Andy....
Theres more than one way to skin a cat fellas......that being said it is my humble opinion that FF and the ECollar are the two most misunderstood and abused tools in dog training. If used/done CORRECTLY they are the 2 greatest tools one can have, and IMHO enhance the bonding experience/drive/desire so on and so forth. Flip side of the coin, they also can flat out ruin a dog.
I'll challange anyone with "amish" trained dogs (not that there is ANYTHING wrong with that) against my FFd, and ECollar trained dogs, personal and client dogs alike, when it comes to the work, the personal bond, the desire, the loyality......
Sorry your thread got off track Andy....
Theres more than one way to skin a cat fellas......that being said it is my humble opinion that FF and the ECollar are the two most misunderstood and abused tools in dog training. If used/done CORRECTLY they are the 2 greatest tools one can have, and IMHO enhance the bonding experience/drive/desire so on and so forth. Flip side of the coin, they also can flat out ruin a dog.
I'll challange anyone with "amish" trained dogs (not that there is ANYTHING wrong with that) against my FFd, and ECollar trained dogs, personal and client dogs alike, when it comes to the work, the personal bond, the desire, the loyality......
Capt Jeff Kraynik
Well-known member
Back in 95 when I began to do research on the smaller retriever breeds, it came down to Tollers, Boykins & AWS's.
I picked the AWS & have never looked back!!!
Friendly obedient & eager to please!!!
Though I've only owned males, the females can be well, be bitchy @ times.
I'm fortunate to have owned & trained the 1st AWS to earn all (4) four of the HRC titles.
Feather or fur, the AWS will pick it up!!!
I'm on my 3rd AWS now & look forward to owning, training & campaigning more.
Being in "Boykin Land" here in the south, I have nothing bad to say about the breed other than for me, they are a tad small in muscle structure compared to the AWS, which ultimately swayed me to the AWS.
I've hunted & judged hundreds of Tollers, Boykins, AWS & any of these breeds will suit what you seem to be looking for.
Only suggestion as in every breed is watch where you purchase your dog from.
Some breed for show & some breed for hunting/campaigning.
Find a breeder that breeds for both.
The AWS has recently been allowed to run in AKC Retriever Hunt Tests & there is a core of handlers & breeders that will meet your needs.
Also, with the smaller breeds, try to stay within the standards of the breed.
In regards to "training collars" (not e-collars), I also live in "Gator Land" & want total control of my dogs in the field.
Chasing a cripple into the brush is a big "no no" here in Florida & if he can't here or ignores the whistle with a nose full of bird, a little "tap" on the collar will get his attention & get him to turn & look.
When I bring out the collar, my dogs get happy because they know what's coming, birds!!!
It's all in how you condition & train your dogs with the collar.
If you chose to use one, get with the local HRC/ACK club in your area & learn how to use the collar correctly.
Forcing a retrieve with the collar with "destroy" the smaller retriever breeds.
Good luck & please feel free to call.
I'd be happy to send you in the right direction!!!
"TRAIN, DON'T COMPLAIN!!!"
I picked the AWS & have never looked back!!!
Friendly obedient & eager to please!!!
Though I've only owned males, the females can be well, be bitchy @ times.
I'm fortunate to have owned & trained the 1st AWS to earn all (4) four of the HRC titles.
Feather or fur, the AWS will pick it up!!!
I'm on my 3rd AWS now & look forward to owning, training & campaigning more.
Being in "Boykin Land" here in the south, I have nothing bad to say about the breed other than for me, they are a tad small in muscle structure compared to the AWS, which ultimately swayed me to the AWS.
I've hunted & judged hundreds of Tollers, Boykins, AWS & any of these breeds will suit what you seem to be looking for.
Only suggestion as in every breed is watch where you purchase your dog from.
Some breed for show & some breed for hunting/campaigning.
Find a breeder that breeds for both.
The AWS has recently been allowed to run in AKC Retriever Hunt Tests & there is a core of handlers & breeders that will meet your needs.
Also, with the smaller breeds, try to stay within the standards of the breed.
In regards to "training collars" (not e-collars), I also live in "Gator Land" & want total control of my dogs in the field.
Chasing a cripple into the brush is a big "no no" here in Florida & if he can't here or ignores the whistle with a nose full of bird, a little "tap" on the collar will get his attention & get him to turn & look.
When I bring out the collar, my dogs get happy because they know what's coming, birds!!!
It's all in how you condition & train your dogs with the collar.
If you chose to use one, get with the local HRC/ACK club in your area & learn how to use the collar correctly.
Forcing a retrieve with the collar with "destroy" the smaller retriever breeds.
Good luck & please feel free to call.
I'd be happy to send you in the right direction!!!
"TRAIN, DON'T COMPLAIN!!!"
Rich Newman
Active member
Eddie owning dogs for 65 years and training dogs for 65 years are two different things. What are your credentials? What level are you training your dogs at. Do you train with the British gun dog team. English bred labs are calmer but lack the desire you would need to compete at an American standard. I have seen british bred labs in action and they seem to be pigish and slugish and lack the style of american bred labs.
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Davey W
Guest
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Golden Retrievers!! I don't know what age your kids are, but you can not get a more gentle, playful and "kid friendly" dog than a Golden. I had my 1yr old niece yesterday and watching her play with my Golden was priceless. I really can't see any negative aspects to Goldens. They're temperament is amazing, especially around young children. They are incredibly loyal, VERY intelligent and they train easily with the right approach. Wouldn't trade my Goldie for anything. In fact, I'm not sure I'll ever own anything but Goldens.
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Davey W
Guest
Yeah, they definitely have their shedding moments. Goldens are classified as a grooming dog, which basically means they need to be groomed a few times a week. Which if you have kids is great because kids usually love to brush dogs and Goldens love getting groomed. I've had Caly almost fall asleep standing up before while I'm grooming her.