The Politics of Duck hunting
- Thread starter Erik Mion
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Mark W
Well-known member
don't forget about the spitball and straw method. In the town where I live, in the State where absolutely nothing is alloowed, they passed an ordinace that one ups the discharge of firearms. We can't use anything in public that shoots a projectile so quite literally, the spitball and straw method would be outlawed here. When my son was 13, he and some buddies were running around the woods with their airsoft guns. Someone called them into the police who showed up and scared the crap out of these kids. Someone thought, and the police enforced the wrongfulness, that these 13 year olds were terrorists with real guns. He doesn't do that anymore.
As far as the rights to all land under the waters - I'd really wonder about the legality of this. I don't live on the East Coast and I understand things are different all over. Federal laws are very specific about waterways and they aren't easy to always understand. I know that back here, if you were a land owner (private, not government) you could still own the land under a lake or stream for instance but it is very rare. I'd go to your local land registar and look up the plots of private land owners who live next to water. See where their property lines end. I'd be willing to bet their is a miss on who actually "owns" what and that the State is not listed as the owners of the land that is under water. If they aren't listed as the owners, Federal laws may trump.
don't take this to the bank but it might be worth some checking around. These threads always interest me. If I were to listen to what private land owners, and local officials told me I could and couldn't do, I'd have no where good to hunt left available.
Mark W
BrentS
Active member
And when you really think about it, it goes beyond who owns what, or who has the right to enact legislation over where........we actually have even less rights as waterfowlers, because it is very unwise to push the limit of legality and hunt in areas that will cause a significant disturbance, regardless of whether it's legal, or not.
You may have the legal right to hunt somewhere, but your hunt may be interrupted by an in-depth conversation with residents or local law enforcement. And then, you may start a movement that would lead to more legislation, so it doesn't simply end with the law that's written.
You may have the legal right to hunt somewhere, but your hunt may be interrupted by an in-depth conversation with residents or local law enforcement. And then, you may start a movement that would lead to more legislation, so it doesn't simply end with the law that's written.
BrentS
Active member
Well, if I ever had waterfront property (in my dreams), I don't think I would want hunters pulling up to the bank and firing off shots at daybreak, either. So, it's a valid issue with two sides.
The sad thing, is the ever increasing population and development, as well as increasing legislation that often doesn't consider the sport of hunting.
There's no reason that the Town of Huntington had to totally ban firearm discharge.......at least they could have put some thought into it, and restricted it to certain areas, like other towns have.
The sad thing, is the ever increasing population and development, as well as increasing legislation that often doesn't consider the sport of hunting.
There's no reason that the Town of Huntington had to totally ban firearm discharge.......at least they could have put some thought into it, and restricted it to certain areas, like other towns have.
Kevin Stupp
Active member
I'm sorry, but I totally disagree. I keep seeing property here in NJ that falls in the hands of Green Acres, Land Trust, Nature Conservancy and other similar organizations. I think that it's great that it's being kept from development, but as the state tax payer, I should be able to hunt on that land.if my money went to purchasing and maintaining that land, then it's mine to use. At first you could basically do some bird watching on these properties, but forget about hunting. But after people started pushing for the rights as tax payers to use this land, they have started to open it to hunting. Just need to fill out a free permit, so they can control the number of hunters. I went into the Land Trust office and talked to them about some of the property near the Delaware Bay that is adjacent to NJF&W public hunting and fishing land. They said that they only own above the high tide mark. They only ask that if you go after a bird that fell on their property that you don't carry a gun. I'm also starting to see more people allowing hunting on their private property. They're finally get tired of complaining about the deer and now turkeys in the yards and gardens and are allowing hunters to manage the numbers.
If we as hunters don't take a stand and start to push back, then where do the restrictions end. It's MY belief that if you don't fight for something you believe in, then you don't get to complain about the laws and regulations. The same goes for voting, if you don't vote, you don't get to complain or celebrate about the decisions that they make.
BrentS
Active member
Kevin, I'm with ya. I'm all for fighting for hunters' rights. Here on L.I., NY, it's often known as "the land of NO". Most people probably don't realize what we L.I.'ers have to deal with.
But, a homeowner that pays L.I. taxes with waterfront property, probably wouldn't like it if a hunter started shooting 50 feet from his bedroom window, 30 min before sunrise on a Sunday morning.
It may be allowed by State law........but, I gaurantee that would result in local legislation restricting that activity. I would bet that the homeowners would win that fight.
But, a homeowner that pays L.I. taxes with waterfront property, probably wouldn't like it if a hunter started shooting 50 feet from his bedroom window, 30 min before sunrise on a Sunday morning.
It may be allowed by State law........but, I gaurantee that would result in local legislation restricting that activity. I would bet that the homeowners would win that fight.
In my experience, most land protected by land trusts and the like is open to hunting--except at places where there is a good management reason not to allow it (e.g. a boat launch, a picnic area, a campground, a heavily used recreational trail).
Many of my hunting spots are either on or involved access through land protected by groups like the Nature Conservancy and local land trusts--and without their work, I'd probably be looking at "No Trespassing" signs. The land on three sides of my house is owned by the New England Forest Foundation, and just down the road a piece is another 200 acres owned by the Kennebec Land Trust--and it provides me with nearly 1000 acres of year-round recreation. I couldn't ask for better neighbors!
Many of my hunting spots are either on or involved access through land protected by groups like the Nature Conservancy and local land trusts--and without their work, I'd probably be looking at "No Trespassing" signs. The land on three sides of my house is owned by the New England Forest Foundation, and just down the road a piece is another 200 acres owned by the Kennebec Land Trust--and it provides me with nearly 1000 acres of year-round recreation. I couldn't ask for better neighbors!
Kevin Stupp
Active member
"Well, if I ever had waterfront property (in my dreams), I don't think I would want hunters pulling up to the bank and firing off shots at daybreak, either. So, it's a valid issue with two sides. "
My problem with that is that, waterfowl and the hunters that have gone after them have been here long before Mr. Hoyty-toyty comes along and puts up his McMansion on the waterfront. Now he wants to come kick you out of the marsh that you and generations before you have hunted. That's why I say if you're legal to hunt it, then hunt it. As for legislation movements to restrict more. The last couple years, NJ has allowed crossbow use to everyone, they allow Sunday archery hunting and they also change the archery safety zone from 450' to 150' as long as your hunting from an elevated position. My guess is that all Sunday hunting isn't to far to follow. States are hurting for money and they are starting to open their eyes to the revenue that hunting, fishing, and boating bring in. They are opening up more opportunities not restricting them. Look at youth days, mentor programs, new hunter work shops, and free licenses to National Guardsmen and disabled vets. The states are trying to grow the number of hunters. Are they doing it for finnacial reasons? Yes, but that's fine by me as long as the hunting doors are opening. I was just informed that NJ is working on passing a youth mentor program too.
My suggestions is this, you fimiliarize yourself with your state and local laws and hunting regulations. Looks at your states hunter harassment laws too. Whenever I get a new piece of property to hunt, weather it's for ducks, geese, deer and public or private, I always look at Google Earth. No only do I get a better overall view, I find little hidden places that I might want to go get a better look at, but i also see if there's any nearby houses that could be a potential problem. Google earth has a ruler than allows you to see how far you are from a certain point. If there's a house I measure out 450' and mark it with a pushpin. I'll do this a few times to make a radius around the house. I'll then print it out and I keep it in a binder that has all my hunting spots that I keep in the truck. I've only had to pull it out 3 times in the last 10 years. (before Google Earth, it was topos and a scale ruler). If I think a homeowner may be a problem, I knock on their door at least a couple days before hunting and just talk to them. Basically saying so and so gave me permission to hunt, roughly when and where I'll be hunting and that I've measured all the safety zone requirements. I've only had one person give me a hard time hunting after that. he called the CO whom I showed the written permission to and my Google Earth printout to. (The Google Earth printout and use on a laser range finder were suggestions from a CO. He said that's what they use). He told the person that I was within my rights to hunt, to stop bothering me or they would be back to issue him a ticket. Most people act like COs are the enemy. Most of them are hunters too and are on our side. Will they give you a ticket if you do something stupid, maybe, maybe just a warning. But they are out their doing their JOB. But please do your homework and don't let people push you out of something.
My problem with that is that, waterfowl and the hunters that have gone after them have been here long before Mr. Hoyty-toyty comes along and puts up his McMansion on the waterfront. Now he wants to come kick you out of the marsh that you and generations before you have hunted. That's why I say if you're legal to hunt it, then hunt it. As for legislation movements to restrict more. The last couple years, NJ has allowed crossbow use to everyone, they allow Sunday archery hunting and they also change the archery safety zone from 450' to 150' as long as your hunting from an elevated position. My guess is that all Sunday hunting isn't to far to follow. States are hurting for money and they are starting to open their eyes to the revenue that hunting, fishing, and boating bring in. They are opening up more opportunities not restricting them. Look at youth days, mentor programs, new hunter work shops, and free licenses to National Guardsmen and disabled vets. The states are trying to grow the number of hunters. Are they doing it for finnacial reasons? Yes, but that's fine by me as long as the hunting doors are opening. I was just informed that NJ is working on passing a youth mentor program too.
My suggestions is this, you fimiliarize yourself with your state and local laws and hunting regulations. Looks at your states hunter harassment laws too. Whenever I get a new piece of property to hunt, weather it's for ducks, geese, deer and public or private, I always look at Google Earth. No only do I get a better overall view, I find little hidden places that I might want to go get a better look at, but i also see if there's any nearby houses that could be a potential problem. Google earth has a ruler than allows you to see how far you are from a certain point. If there's a house I measure out 450' and mark it with a pushpin. I'll do this a few times to make a radius around the house. I'll then print it out and I keep it in a binder that has all my hunting spots that I keep in the truck. I've only had to pull it out 3 times in the last 10 years. (before Google Earth, it was topos and a scale ruler). If I think a homeowner may be a problem, I knock on their door at least a couple days before hunting and just talk to them. Basically saying so and so gave me permission to hunt, roughly when and where I'll be hunting and that I've measured all the safety zone requirements. I've only had one person give me a hard time hunting after that. he called the CO whom I showed the written permission to and my Google Earth printout to. (The Google Earth printout and use on a laser range finder were suggestions from a CO. He said that's what they use). He told the person that I was within my rights to hunt, to stop bothering me or they would be back to issue him a ticket. Most people act like COs are the enemy. Most of them are hunters too and are on our side. Will they give you a ticket if you do something stupid, maybe, maybe just a warning. But they are out their doing their JOB. But please do your homework and don't let people push you out of something.
Kevin Stupp
Active member
Jeff,
I applaud you for going that extra mile.
I applaud you for going that extra mile.
The kid I took out on youth day this year called his local police chief about a spot he's scouted to make sure it would be legal. It is, and the officer told him to "save a copy of this message in case anyone gives you any trouble."[/quote]
I have been trying this with local bay constables for years, the usual response is "no damn it, you cant shoot in the bay" I've tried doing all of this by the books and in the most polite way possible and it's just not working out.
I have been trying this with local bay constables for years, the usual response is "no damn it, you cant shoot in the bay" I've tried doing all of this by the books and in the most polite way possible and it's just not working out.
One thing to look at is what your local or state shoreland zone is. A lot of my hunting spots have been saved by strict regulations on waterfront development that put the houses back from the shoreline instead of right on it.
We had a proposal in the Maine Legislature this year to reduce the buffer zone around "significant wildlife habitat", which includes waterfowl production areas. I did a quick Google Earth analysis and showed that it would make a big difference in what was legal to hunt on some of the state's most popular duck waters. I like to think that was part of the reason the change was voted down.
We had a proposal in the Maine Legislature this year to reduce the buffer zone around "significant wildlife habitat", which includes waterfowl production areas. I did a quick Google Earth analysis and showed that it would make a big difference in what was legal to hunt on some of the state's most popular duck waters. I like to think that was part of the reason the change was voted down.
Bob B
Well-known member
The sad part is that these bans are likely unconstitutional. But you would have to spend the money to take it to the Supreme Court. And we as duck hunters just are not that big of a lobby to move the state legislature.
It will get more challenging as we go. But I have three kids who will all shoot ducks and hopefully deer. Not to mention the tree rats and other table fare.
Right now CT is expensive to hunt but the laws are not too bad for gun ownership. MA is a bit tougher but costs are close.
The trend will be for less and less to participate due to the dollars if the game is not abundant. That is not good in a democracy.
Help a new hunter if you can. Even in the crowded spots.
That kills me to say that, but we all loose if we dont work together.
It will get more challenging as we go. But I have three kids who will all shoot ducks and hopefully deer. Not to mention the tree rats and other table fare.
Right now CT is expensive to hunt but the laws are not too bad for gun ownership. MA is a bit tougher but costs are close.
The trend will be for less and less to participate due to the dollars if the game is not abundant. That is not good in a democracy.
Help a new hunter if you can. Even in the crowded spots.
That kills me to say that, but we all loose if we dont work together.
This is an interesting conversation. I have waterfront property on an island in the MIssissippi River. Now my abstract states my property line which I pay taxes on goes from the middle of the street to the middle of the slough (The box shown in red). The area show in blue is a Corp of Engineer right of way. I can't legally do anything in that blue box without written approval from the Corp of Engineers. Then on top of that the green line is a 20' public right of way. That means legally if a boat pulls up to shore and the occupants decide they want to park there and set up camp or fish from the bank I have no legal right to ask them to leave. So the little area where the "A" balloon is shown is the only piece of my property I can really say I have control over. Doesn't quit seem right to be taxed on all that land that I can't control now dosen't it?
Now the little box on the opposite shore is a place the birds like to sit and so do I. That property is called a bird sanctuary but the state doesn't acknowledge it. I have asked the DNR if I can legally hunt there and I'm told yes but just don't get out of the boat and go on shore to pick up a dead bird or a cripple because I'd be on "PRIVATE LAND". Now here's my question. How can they tell me not to get out of the boat if I can't tell someone on my "PRIVATE LAND" to get back in their boat? Double standard or lack of knowledge? Some may be asking...Aren't you a little close to the bridge? There is no rule on how far away from a bridge you have to be in Illinois according to the DNR.
I guess the whole point of this is do your own dudilegents and know the law where you live before you hunt. Here in the Tampa Bay area they have successfully stopped hunting around the bay by naming all the mangrove areas and bays with names such Aquatic Preserve or Birding Preserve.
Take care,
Ed L.
View attachment property_line.jpg
Now the little box on the opposite shore is a place the birds like to sit and so do I. That property is called a bird sanctuary but the state doesn't acknowledge it. I have asked the DNR if I can legally hunt there and I'm told yes but just don't get out of the boat and go on shore to pick up a dead bird or a cripple because I'd be on "PRIVATE LAND". Now here's my question. How can they tell me not to get out of the boat if I can't tell someone on my "PRIVATE LAND" to get back in their boat? Double standard or lack of knowledge? Some may be asking...Aren't you a little close to the bridge? There is no rule on how far away from a bridge you have to be in Illinois according to the DNR.
I guess the whole point of this is do your own dudilegents and know the law where you live before you hunt. Here in the Tampa Bay area they have successfully stopped hunting around the bay by naming all the mangrove areas and bays with names such Aquatic Preserve or Birding Preserve.
Take care,
Ed L.
View attachment property_line.jpg
Kevin Layne
Active member
This doesn't answer the question "exactly", but you can extrapolate the data to see that he's at least "close". (Info taken from www.flyways.us.) Mexico
Currently, there are no annual estimates available for hunter harvest in Mexico. However, a study by Kramer et al. (1995) gives a good indication of the magnitude and species composition of the annual waterfowl harvest in Mexico. From 1987 to 1992, Kramer et al. conducted a census of harvest in all the traditional waterfowl hunting areas of Mexico, visiting each major area in a different year. Then they applied area-specific correction factors to adjust for under-reporting by hunters. Finally, they summed the results for each area across years to obtain estimates of average annual harvest for all of Mexico. Generally, the waterfowl harvest in Mexico is less than one percent of the total North American harvest.
rich scheffer
Well-known member
If I remember correctly from my old Baymen days on long Island. The town of southampton controls the fish in the sea and the birds in the air by the grace of something called the Donnegan Patent which goes back to the 1600s or so. This was a grant by the King or Queen of England to the people in southampton town. I always thought that things like this were the reason we fought the revoloutionary war. A sharp lawyer could probably have fun with this in our judicial system, but the southamptom guys have very deep pockets, and would out littigate everyone else especially us lowly hunters. By the way back in the seventies someone told us that shinnecock canal was state waters. We saw tons of sand eels there, after one set of our net the southampton clam cops were all over us like flies on stink. If a local friend hadnt got word of this and told the cops he owned the net and we worked for him, Im sure we would have spent the nite in jail. Rich
John L
Well-known member
Erik,
You will not win with the town of Southampton. I have tried.
Here is the law as it reads:
- No person, other than a Resident, Freeholder or Taxpayer of the Town of Southampton shall place any decoys, nor anchor any boat, nor occupy float or device anchored or placed in the waters of the Town of Southampton for the purpose of shooting any wildfowl or game, unless such person is accompanied by a guide duly licensed by the Trustees.
I approached the town and said I'm a licensed NYS guide and would like to be duly licensed by the town trustees. I was told that I still need to be a resident. I tried fighting this up hill battle for a while and then simply did'nt have any more time to waste on the issue.
Here is an interesting link : http://waterways.southamptontownny.gov/ it is an interactive map of Southampton where you can see the location of all the blinds and more. It looks as though all the blinds have been strategically placed to close off the shore line and access to any good hunting areas that may have been available even to residents. I can't imagine that there are that many activly used blinds out there. The law states that the blind only has to be used once during the season to be deemed active.
I'm glad I live to the west. I have miles and miles of area to hunt. I was out Monday laying down some tracks and marking some of my spots on the new GPS. When I checked the track log I had covered 23 miles of water without passing the same spot twice.
Just an idea. Go to the town and retreive some of the blind owners info and try contacting them. You may find there are a few that may let you share their blind if they know your a local or you may be able to give the town a list of blinds that are no longer in use and can open up the spot if you want to apply for it.
Another interesting point. Not to mention any names, but one of the board members of the South Shore Waterfowlers Assoc is also a Town of Southampton Bay Constable. You may try calling there for some friendy advise.
You will not win with the town of Southampton. I have tried.
Here is the law as it reads:
- No person, other than a Resident, Freeholder or Taxpayer of the Town of Southampton shall place any decoys, nor anchor any boat, nor occupy float or device anchored or placed in the waters of the Town of Southampton for the purpose of shooting any wildfowl or game, unless such person is accompanied by a guide duly licensed by the Trustees.
I approached the town and said I'm a licensed NYS guide and would like to be duly licensed by the town trustees. I was told that I still need to be a resident. I tried fighting this up hill battle for a while and then simply did'nt have any more time to waste on the issue.
Here is an interesting link : http://waterways.southamptontownny.gov/ it is an interactive map of Southampton where you can see the location of all the blinds and more. It looks as though all the blinds have been strategically placed to close off the shore line and access to any good hunting areas that may have been available even to residents. I can't imagine that there are that many activly used blinds out there. The law states that the blind only has to be used once during the season to be deemed active.
I'm glad I live to the west. I have miles and miles of area to hunt. I was out Monday laying down some tracks and marking some of my spots on the new GPS. When I checked the track log I had covered 23 miles of water without passing the same spot twice.
Just an idea. Go to the town and retreive some of the blind owners info and try contacting them. You may find there are a few that may let you share their blind if they know your a local or you may be able to give the town a list of blinds that are no longer in use and can open up the spot if you want to apply for it.
Another interesting point. Not to mention any names, but one of the board members of the South Shore Waterfowlers Assoc is also a Town of Southampton Bay Constable. You may try calling there for some friendy advise.