Whale business

S

steve y

Member
The lawful pursuit of an animal regardless of the rationale as to why the animal is being harvested needs to be respected by fellow hunters and trappers. Cultural differences in how an animal is pursued may turn us off and we might never consider participating in such a hunt, but there are many people out there that would find tricking ducks into shooting range with decoys and calls, horribly offensive. I have had a lawful hunt disrupted and ruined by a very nice couple who felt that the birds I was shooting were theirs too and they would no longer be able to enjoy them. Are these people any different than those who seek to disrupt the whale harvest? Incrementalism is a useful device in which anti-hunters could divide us quite rapidly into factions of varying degrees of tolerance. Today the whales, tomorrow the trappers, then our ducks. Stay on the right side of the law, and if you don't like the law seek to change it. PETA on jetskis in my decoys would not surprise me in this day and age...and like the game warden said you really have to be the one to back down because your the one with the gun! (as to harvest for research purposes...That is just politics.. a wink and a nod you know)

PS Great to see the story again by Gary March in Wildfowl!
 
The lawful pursuit of an animal regardless of the rationale as to why the animal is being harvested needs to be respected by fellow hunters and trappers. Cultural differences in how an animal is pursued may turn us off and we might never consider participating in such a hunt, but there are many people out there that would find tricking ducks into shooting range with decoys and calls, horribly offensive. I have had a lawful hunt disrupted and ruined by a very nice couple who felt that the birds I was shooting were theirs too and they would no longer be able to enjoy them. Are these people any different than those who seek to disrupt the whale harvest? Incrementalism is a useful device in which anti-hunters could divide us quite rapidly into factions of varying degrees of tolerance. Today the whales, tomorrow the trappers, then our ducks. Stay on the right side of the law, and if you don't like the law seek to change it. PETA on jetskis in my decoys would not surprise me in this day and age...and like the game warden said you really have to be the one to back down because your the one with the gun! (as to harvest for research purposes...That is just politics.. a wink and a nod you know)

PS Great to see the story again by Gary March in Wildfowl!
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I 100% disagree.... legal and ethical are not the same...

Also, since this is obviously in response of the previous whale thread.... there is debate as to legal taking of said whales.
 
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SPORT HUNTING is comparing Apples to Concrete....sport hunters, IMO, need not support the killing of animals for COMMERCIAL PURPOSES in order to support themselves....

Important to note here that there never was and never will be "recreational hunting" for Whales.......

I agree with you regarding hunts that are carried out by "native peoples" where there is a long standing tradition that has been maintained and is followed for cultural purposes, (Inupiats and Bowhead Whales), vs. Political muscle flexing, "Makah's and Grey Whales".....

Steve
 

Isn't one thread of this enough.....?



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Isn't one thread of this enough.....?



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Yes I have to agree with John on this,

SPORT HUNTING is comparing Apples to Concrete....sport hunters, IMO, need not support the killing of animals for COMMERCIAL PURPOSES in order to support themselves....

Important to note here that there never was and never will be "recreational hunting" for Whales.......

I agree with you regarding hunts that are carried out by "native peoples" where there is a long standing tradition that has been maintained and is followed for cultural purposes, (Inupiats and Bowhead Whales), vs. Political muscle flexing, "Makah's and Grey Whales".....

Steve
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And with Steve on this too,

all the stuff Whales provide can be duplicated chemically by us.

and this reply by myself serves no purpose other than entertainment for myself because I'm bored
 
Comparing whaling to sport hunting is not a sound analogy. Birds reproduce at one year old and have many young. Sometimes they can have more than one clutch per year. Young survival rate can be low or high. However, population size can increase rapidly as conditions change. Just look at snow geese.

Whales can reproduce at age 5-8 years and are pregnant for up to 16 months with one calf. The calf separates at age 6-7 months. Simple math says a whale can have one offspring every two years, if everything goes great.

Birds, deer and other sport game have developed with lots of natural predators. Whales don't really have any predators. Maybe Killer Whales and sharks? Whales simply do not have the ability to reproduce rapidly.
 
Other than making wisecracks with Schrodinger on the previous whale post I think we as hunters are missing the main point. Whales or ducks, the anti hunters view it all the same and will educate people that duck hunters are the same as whale hunters. Both are killing animals for their own purposes. Won't matter what the finer point of differences are between the two, the general public, which is pretty sutpid, will and do listen the the anti message -
I promise this. We have to look no futher than what Obama is attempting to do to the commercial fishing industry. His administration is making no diference betwwen commercial fishing and recreational fishing. Hunting whales verses hunting ducks will be viewed the exact same way.

Here is the article on what is being done with our fishing rights - As Elmer Fudd used to say, "Be very careful out there"

http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/saltwater/news/story?id=4975762

Mark W
 
I REALLY appologize for the earlier thread now, it's going to be neverending.... LOL . That's the thing that I really fear. With the decline in younger people engaging in hunting, trapping, fishing, etc. activities. And more and more tree huggers and people not educated about these sports, I fear that they won't be around for much longer. Now I'm not saying within my lifetime, but in the near future. Maybe the government will allow an annual day that people can harvest pen raised dove, pheasant, quail, chukar, etc.. So the heritage won't be completely lost, much like the native whale harvests. I hope I don't sound like the people throughout history that has claimed the world is going to end, as that's not my intention. But look at the whole picture, baiting laws on bears banned in many areas, no dog hunting in many areas, trapping outlawed in states that I never dreamed would be (Colorado still stumps me, other than ALOT of tree huggers in that state). It's a constant attack on our rights and heritage. Each time they take a right away they will target another, until they are all gone. Then they will start telling you how to treat your family and pets. I know this sounds REALLY crazy and may be a little over the top. But I think alot of people need to open their eyes, and quit acting like they are so much more ethical and above others if they don't agree with what others do. I've heard it all before, and one that REALLY stands out in my mind is full grown adults giving a kid crap over water swatting ducks that had landed in his decoys. What started out with a big smile and pride of killing his first ducks quickly turned to shame. I was very upset over it to say the least. I have always encouraged the youngsters instead of discouraging them. Congratulate them, high fives, pats on the backs, hand shakes, THEN give them a little push in the right direction if need be. But don't shove your ideas down their throats. Add to that the whole "TROPHY" factor these days. The younger people starting out never seem to be fully satisfied with anything other than what they see harvested on television (alot being can hunts, and in PRIME habitat and areas). Had a friend this year shoot a small 3 point buck. This guy doesn't hunt much at all and it's been a few years since he has harvested a buck. When I went to take a look at his deer he dropped his head and said, I know I shouldn't have shot it. I asked him, are YOU happy with it? He replied "yeah I am, first one in years and meat in the freezer". I then saked, "then why do you say you shouldn't have shot it? Congratulations let's get to butchering". Just the frame of mind many have and how it can discourage them and possibly even stop hunting all together.
 
I like your train of thought, especially about what the media is portraying as being "the way it's done." I don't watch the weekend deer hunts on TV where you know they are on some deer ranch in the southwest "culling" from the herd. It worries me what is happening with our rights and the latest article from ESPN which is a link four or five threads above this one that shows how the anti's were able to shut down a Canada bear hunt and now they are targeting ........fishing? Both coasts, the gulf, Great Lakes and inland waters are part of this push. The economic devastation would be staggering. Bass Pro would go under, along with anybody else making fishing boats, rods, lures, trailers. Think of the lost revenue for states from licenses, camping fees, boat ramp fees, boat/motor/trailer registration, boat insurance, gas, oil, bait, .............the list goes on forever. I got a feeling that the current administration is in their pocket, bought and paid for. I believe we don't NEED to kill to survive. But I also believe that our government has taxed our sports enough over the years that they wouldn't know where to get that lost revenue if they HAD to get rid of our sport. There are still many people that count on putting a deer in the freezer every year to help out with the food bill. I grew up on a large hog farm and I saw life and death everyday, and it was completely NORMAL. If people don't want to kill a chicken themselves, get it at the store. If you don't want to eat chicken, DON'T. I think my biggest pet peave is how many people have decided that it's their given right to TELL everyone else how the world should be. To that I say, "I'm glad you have formed an opinion, kindly keep it to yourself." It's not my right as what ever color, race, creed, religion, etc, to tell anyone how they should behave if it's within the law. And that goes double for me telling anyone what ethics they should have. I had a vegetarian tell me that it's wrong to eat meat because humans are herbivores, not carnivores. I disagreed and said that humans were omnivores and they looked at me like I just made the word up. Every culture finds different animals sacred and I always wondered how that evolved. Other cultures consume dog and the Lewis and Clark expedition consumed enormous amounts of red meat on their journey, dog being their favorite. So how did Fido end up as a house pet instead of live stock in the states? dc
 
I agree with your assessments on at least a couple of points:

1. Commercial killing (true "harvest") is different from sport hunting, or the subsistence hunting of groups like the Inupiaq. Though I will state that anti-hunters will NOT differentiate the two to the non-hunting public in order to sway them...as is being done with fishing regs as we speak.

2. There are "native" groups who engage in the exploitation of the resource basically to thumb their noses at everyone else...whether we are discussing whales or muskies or whatever.

3. The Japanese are hunting whales through a loophole in the regulations.

Now, even though the IWC basically refuses to publish any recent number for minke whales, the one number they do publish as a point estimate is 761,000 for the Southern Hemisphere population. In 2009, the Japanese whaling target (which they missed, I believe) was 935 minke whales. So a full harvest harvest represents 0.12% of the population. Minkes cannot reproduce enough to counter a .12% population loss to hunting? The IWC also states that populations of blue, gray, bowhead and humpback whales are actually increasing...most of the rates are around 3% per year. Pretty interesting to note that they can't determine an accurate population of minkes, which are being hunted and thus in dispute, but they can determine that other whale populations are actually growing...

Further to that, the American Cetacean Society fact sheet on minkes states that they believe the population actually increased when the populations of great whales decreased, because food sources for the minkes opened up that were being formerly being utilized by the great whales.

While I may disagree with the Japanese for exploiting a loophole in the law, I also understand that there indeed may be some amount of scientific value in harvesting whales...average age, weight, thickness of fat or other markers of health, signs of chemical contamination, etc. There is knowledge to be gained.

I also disagree with the Steve Irwin's approach, particularly in attempting to disable ships (fouling propellers, etc.). Motoring between a whaling ship and a pod of minkes? Cool. But the environment in which these ships are operating makes duckhunters look sane...a fouled prop can cause any number of outcomes, and some of them aren't good. Likewise with ramming another vessel - pretty much against maritime law, isn't it? How about putting people on board the Japanese whaling ships? Oddly enough, in one ocean that's called piracy...in the Antarctic it's simply "advocacy".

It's the equivalent of "spiking" trees, which I'm sure you probably remember...legal operations being interrupted by illegal methods...

If the Japanese are acting so egregiously, why not close the loophole and shut them down?
 
Mark,

I think you need to post your comment and link about the soon to be attempted fishing ban that you added to this thread. I would think it would garner more attention if it were posted independantly. I have many friends who are commercial fisherman; from lobsterman, offshore fisherman, and charter fisherman.....this would put them out of business, let alone take away our right to fish??? Can this really be happening??

THanks for bringing it to the attention of everyone who may or may not know.

Keith
 
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