Whale Wars

Is it possible that what you mean is not "intelligence" but instead "awareness".

It is generally conceded that intelligence implies understanding and has underlying cognitive abilities. Awareness does not necessarily mean that there is an ability to reason and understand.
 
Difficult to believe that there are not some whale species that are of sufficient numbers such that a harvest would be reasonable. Southern Right whales come to mind.

Similiarly there are regional elephant populations that can sustain a harvest.

I view whaling/shooting elephants like hunting bears over bait. None are pursuits I'd care to have anything to do with. But I have no problem with some others who want to do it under reasonable circumstances.

Forced the choice of picking the side of Japanese whalers or Greenpeace types - I'll sign up with the whalers.
 
I know what you might be looking for, but Anthropomorphism is what it is called. You just described what is known as classical Anthropomorphism or Disney-ism. The other term is Critical Anthropomorphism. Its even more dangerous in the scientific and, in general, rational community of thinking, as it often starts with some knowledge of the biology. In some cases, great information of the biology of a particular creature. Knowing everything about the biology of a creature including its ecology and ethology does not guard against the natural human instinct to rationalize behavior along the lines of our own brain generated bias. Ethical biologists will often guard against this and put measures into experiments and observations to guard against it. Unethical biologists will use Critical Anthropomorphism for political gain. They will cite volumes of scientific data and then wrap it in Anthropomorhic terms to appeal to a cause.

Dr. Seymour in his book "Living the Dream" gives a great example of Critical Anthropomorphism when he was observing hen behavior. He stated that he wanted to believe that the hens were behaving according to an ascribe feeling...but recognized that was his human instinct talking to him. He understood the concepts and its pitfalls.
 
Jay -

Thanks for taking the time to add this story about a person's experience in Africa with elephants. It reminds me that experience on the ground or at sea level can be a better way to form an idea or opinion as opposed to reacting to what the media provides, if, or course, a person had the opportunity. I don't trust a lot of what is presented because I know that there is often a bias or agenda behind the story and it's slant.

A lot of what I have read in this thread is very disappointing because it is yet another example of how opinions taken to an extreme can push people to take sides, often without ever having had the opportunity to have any experience.

Let me tell you about my experience. For the past 30 + years, I have fished offshore from relatively small boats in the company of whales. I see them almost every time I fish and many are longer than my boat. We do not intentionally get close, however, once lines are down I often have them swim over very near the boat. Close enough to smell sand eels when they spout. I have often had them cruise by within 10-20 feet. It is an awesome encounter and not once in all of these encounters have they ever touched the boat. I don't think it's a coincidence and while I don't share many political views with greenpeace, I am glad they are trying to stop the slaughter.

I am also active in the blue fin tuna fishery and there is compelling evidence that our strong management efforts are ignored by many other nations in europe - but that's another story.

sarge
 
Paul...there is no doubt that many animals have high degree of awareness than others. In fact I'd say most standard issue dumb ass humans are the least aware of all. And I think many animals that are considered more intelligent than others are more aware then others. An exception would be the Wild Turkey which is probably one of the most aware birds on the planet but in reality like the rest of the gallinaceous birds is relatively unintelligent. I always describe turkeys as possessing great instinct, awareness and stupidity.

Steve, maybe I have a bad case of Clinical Anthropomorphism(for the record this is the last time I am typing that word...maybe ever). I have no direct connection to whales or elephants...I have never seen a wild whale and I am sorry for that. Its certainly something that I intend on doing some day hopefully. When I saw one of the Shamu Orcas when I was a kid I was sad for it. That's long before Free Willy came out. Let um go. My education centered on biology/ecology so I guess I have better base of knowledge than most carnival workers but that doesn't make me a whale expert. Would Diane Fossey and her gorillas be a case of C.A?
 
So now we are saying that if something is stupid shoot it, but if it shows the slightest bit of intelligence you shouldn't? And who makes these scales as to what is classified as intelligent and what is not? Just to clear things up, I would not want to harvest a whale or elephant, and many other animals. But who am I to tell others they can or can't? I do know that I have seen video of both whales and elephants and just don't see how people can do it. But then again I couldn't raise an animal and then slaughter it for food. Just how I am.
 
A couple of side notes on the elephant story. This occurred on the PH's family ranch which is vast. I would assume that he, like many guides that know their quarry well had encountered these elephants many times over the years. Perhaps he knew the old one for 30 or 40 years. Having met this gentlemen, I suspect that given a choice he'd never shoot or assist somebody in shooting another elephant again. But, he knows that the revenue generated by these safaris is critical to the local economy and therefore reduces poaching as well as generating operating capital for reserves such as his families that are the last place for African wildlife. And of course I'm sure he does quite well...I believe the hunter and his companion each killed a bull and spent somewhere around $80K US when you include shipping the trophy etc.

I have met the hunter as well. And of course, the story comes via one of my dearest, most trusted friends who was an avid hunter. I spent the day fishing with him yesterday and I know he had a hard time with this incident. I never really put it together before but over the past 5 years he has hunted less and less though he is the strongest proponent of hunter rights that I know.
 
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[font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]"So now we are saying that if something is stupid shoot it, but if it shows the slightest bit of intelligence you shouldn't?"

That's a leap of epic proportions Gary!
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That is why I mentioned the uncertainty principle......the observer alters the outcome based upon either the participation in the observation or a preconceived bias, both can produce [font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]critical anthropomorphism. This might be also construed to follow the anthropic principle - the observer biases the observation to fit his or hers known "facts" or "truth", thus never knowing what the "truth" actually is.

UGH and this is a duck hunting forum? darn pile of intellectual goobbley gook....HAHA!!

AS far as the intellect or intelligence of an elephant...they probably possess some reasoning capabilities, but and a big BUT,,how much and how it is used I would not care to speculate...so shall I hedge and say just maybe?
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Jay, I hear ya on the A-word. Hard to type. Many biologists and anthropologists are guilty of Critical-A. My point of using a biologist was accentuation, I also said rational thinking community, I guess thats where most of the rest of us fall into. Dian Fossey had it bad. I am not surprised. Humans have a great capacity for empathy and compassion toward other things, as a zoologist she certainly would have been taught dangers of Critical Anthropomorphism and observer bias, but her field work did not require it for her success. In fact, hers almost achieve classic proportions to gain attention to her cause. Oh and there is some body of thought that states you can call it Personification instead of CA. Its easier to say anyways.
 
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Steve,

A community of rational thought? Sometimes I wonder if we delude the mind with what may be called hyper or super rational thought.....
 
At the end of the day... we hunters (or non-hunters) have a special relationship with the natural world... that is sometimes hard to describe, but always very personal. Some want to kill them because it's cool, some view the relationship through a religious lens (animals' place on this earth is subordinate to man in every conceivable way), others a scientific (the anthroposhizzles) and others (like me) simply "love" the damned things and want more of them around, except ticks, and some unchecked populations (like coyotes in our area).

And, for the record, my lab is smarter and has more sensitivity than a lot of humans I come in contact with, especially on the highway ; )
 
That is why I mentioned the uncertainty principle......the observer alters the outcome based upon either the participation in the observation or a preconceived bias, both can produce [font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]critical anthropomorphism. This might be also construed to follow the anthropic principle - the observer biases the observation to fit his or hers known "facts" or "truth", thus never knowing what the "truth" actually is.

UGH and this is a duck hunting forum? darn pile of intellectual goobbley gook....HAHA!!

AS far as the intellect or intelligence of an elephant...they probably possess some reasoning capabilities, but and a big BUT,,how much and how it is used I would not care to speculate...so shall I hedge and say just maybe?
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So do we get to use the Schrodinger equation or apply Feynman's path integral formulations? God how I hated these two guys while in college...... We can add Heisenberg to this list as well.

Mark W
 
yup,,,you can do what ever you wish.....just be sure to take the path of least confusion...lest we forget we are talking about bulls....or is that just more bull?
 
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