???What double barrel to buy???

Your HE is a 2 3/4" gun, right?

I saw one last night with a case, etc. that looked like a heck of a deal on an HE, but 2 3/4" only...one of these days, I'll find my HE.

Becker-barreled guns are scarce and expensive...
 
Rick,

Yeah, my Super is a 2 3/4" gun. Many people don't believe that the Super was offered in the shorter shell lengths. They were! Michael McIntosh was of the opinion that they probably left Philly about 50/50. Of coarse some 2 3/4" guns were returned to Philadelphia and let out and many other guns were lengthened by other gunsmiths, some good, some not so good. It does give me a warm and fuzzy feeling knowing that the last person to work on the tubes of my HE was probably St. Burt. If I ever choose to have my gun let out to 3" I will probably get Briley or Turnbull to do it.

Curiously, the Super isn't my scarcest A.H.Fox, I have two others that are much scarcer. One is a grade XE twenty gauge with 26" tubes, full-pistol grip, splinter foreend choked IC/IM, Not too many short barreled twenties, The scarcest Fox I own is a Sterlingworth with a Parker hinge-pin. It is scarce only in that it is the only known Parker-pin gun with ejectors! Back when Mike was writing his book he told me that one other guy had claimed to have one but never could produce it. I sent a picture of my gun to Mike and it is mentioned in the Fox book, serial # 61412. I gave $250 for the gun and used to shoot ducks with it in the Pb shot days. Though choked Full & Full, it isn't quite as tight as the Super. It patterns around 75% to 80% depending on the loads. Mike McIntosh surmised that since most of the parker-pin guns were shipped in 1911-12 and ejectors weren't introduced in the Sterlingworths until 1913, it was probably made up from an older frame that was laying around. That it was a consignment gun to a San Francisco Hardware store excludes the fact that it was special ordered.
 
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Whats affordable?
$1000 has always been my limit for a duck gun.

These guns can be found under $1000, look for Chrome lined Barrels(steel shot safe) Italians have been doing this since the 60’s. Modern spainish guns are not chrome lined. The only guns listed that I know anything about are the Benardelli and Zoli-Rizzini. I have not researched in depth any of the others. Stay away from single selective trigger nobody has ever made a reliable one. Stay away from ejectors, just more that could go wrong. Finding any of these guns with Mod/IC (full is useless with steel) still maybe tough and you don’t want to hone out a lined barrel. The bernardelli and A&F are on the lighter side and still would watch speed of shells I was putting in.

1960-early 1990's V Bernardelli, 2 3/4" chamber, 3" very hard to find in 12ga (I am looking)
Abocrombie and fitch, Zoli-rizzini, 2 3/4" chamber only
Berretta, a couple models can be found under $1000
Antiono Zoli, variety of grades, some junkier ones, You can find a 3" chamber guns though.
Marlins LC Smith, made by Fausti.
TriStar imported some Fausti guns under the model 411D I think.
SKB (dad has a 20ga, and it works but insides aren't as nice as an italian gun)

Good luck
 
you know i bit my tongue about 30 times on this thread writing responses and then subsequently deleting them without posting. But honestly to say that no one has ever made a relaible single selective trigger? There are beretta's in argentina getting 500 shells a day and 200+ days a year, and no gun smith visits. When would you decide they are reliable? If they quit using them, and they sat unused in a cabinet for another 40 years?


I completely understand the arguements for classic american or english doubles, but I think the arguement should be from an asthetics or nostaligic point of view rather than a reliability or strength point of view.
 
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If I was to buy a new sxs right now, I would get the CZ Ringneck Target. I like the 30" barrels, but not the hi-viz sight.

http://cz-usa.com/products/view/rengneck-target/
 
In O/U's yes designs have been good, but not in SxS's. I am not even sure how many O/U's have selective single triggers, I have even heard of problems with berretta O/U single triggers that can't be fixed.

In SxS most SST designs have been crap, all are prone to problems and extremely unreliabe compared to a doube trigger. Italians SxS SST's are about the best you can hope for. But they do have inheirently more problems than a double trigger, can be problematic to fix and even expensive. Which is why you see a lot of Italian guns with non-selective single trigger.

LC smith hunter one trigger is a good example some have never had a problem and shot thousands of rounds. But on a whole they are junk, and is common knowledge amongst collectors, last I investigated there was only 1 gunsmith in the country that could fix a hunter one trigger that wasn't working properly. I don't know what his succes rate was for future issues however.

So for a reliable duck gun, that is going to exposed to the elements, I would never trust a single selective trigger gun. besides the poor designs, just like ejectors more working parts to have an issue with.
 
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In O/U's yes designs have been good, but not in SxS's. I am not even sure how many O/U's have selective single triggers, I have even heard of problems with berretta O/U single triggers that can't be fixed.

In SxS most SST designs have been crap, all are prone to problems and extremely unreliabe compared to a doube trigger. Italians SxS SST's are about the best you can hope for. But they do have inheirently more problems than a double trigger, can be problematic to fix and even expensive. Which is why you see a lot of Italian guns with non-selective single trigger.

LC smith hunter one trigger is a good example some have never had a problem and shot thousands of rounds. But on a whole they are junk, and is common knowledge amongst collectors, last I investigated there was only 1 gunsmith in the country that could fix a hunter one trigger that wasn't working properly. I don't know what his succes rate was for future issues however.

So for a reliable duck gun, that is going to exposed to the elements, I would never trust a single selective trigger gun. besides the poor deigns just like ejectors more working parts to have an issue with.
Click to expand...


Back in the wayback I had an Ithaca (SKB) with a nicely reliable single trigger. I've never had any trouble with the single triggers on any of my Citori's except for one double firing on a ver cold day with 3 1/2 mag shells. Eric still laughs about that one to this day. The Citori trigger is a inertial counterbalanced design which is probably the best design and much easier to adapt to under and over guns.

As for the old American doubles. As Bill states, the Hunter One single trigger can be good, when it works and is a nightmare when it doesn't. I have one on a Hunter Bros grade 4E. The only other single trigger oldie I have is an early Uncle Dan (not Lefever Arms Co) boxlock double, grade 6C. It was probably the 24th gun made by Dan Lefever sn# 1024. In his inveterate way, Dan Lefever always had to tinker. the single trigger is adjustable as to weight of pull. I have taken the WOP down as low as 6 oz. on one tube and about 10 oz. on the other tube. The trigger works best when adjusted to about 3 lbs. on each side. The D.MLefever is also curious in that it has ejectors which are mounted in the reciever, not the forearm iron.

Most people don't know it, but the Hunter One trigger is a British design and patent, licensed to Hunter Bros.

16gaFWE07.jpg



It could be had with three trigger positions, front, middle and rear.
 
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Bill,

You and your family certainly have way more experience with doubles than anybody else I know. That being said my personal experience is that O/U's experience a lot of problems with SSTs and everyone I have ever handled or owned has had a SST. Of particular note is the selector that is on the tang with the safety. And not just on cheap guns either, my
Rizzini O/U had to be sent back to get repaired for SST issues.

The most reliable from my limited experience has been my SKB 385, 20 ga SxS. I never have had an issue with the SST and only had one problem with the ejectors and that was when the weld on the forearm hanger broke a couple years ago. Granted this is only one gun.

I have heard of issues with SSTs in general over the years but really don't have enough experience with them to confirm or deny the claims with other makes.
 
Gauge Mate, 800-709-9910, has both the temporary and semi-permanent chamber reducers, that are reasonably priced, so any 10ga can be reduced to a nice heavy 12 gauge waterfowl gun.

Having kept my chokes below .017 (lite mod), I have shot steel shot out of several English guns and a number of old American guns with no ill results. If you are going to shoot...shoot, why cater to collectors.

As far as trigger numbers go, a good rule of thumb is, have at least one trigger for every barrel!
 
Jeff, I was interested in your post regarding older doubles. Over the years I have had many, and shot all with steel shot. No problem after taking the tight chokes out. Without question, my favorite guns are based around old 10 bores. While not cheap, they can be made into wonderful waterfowling guns. I have taken old 10s, sent them down to Briley's and had them re-barreled and chambered into 3 inch 12. The cost involved is $2000.00. I now have five old 10s reworked. Two are W&C Scott backaction sidelocks. One of these is the Premier Grade. That was truely a remarkable find. In the early 1880s the Premier cost more than any other English gun, even a Purdey. Over the years I have only seen two or three of these Premiers up for sale, and all were priced at over $5000.00. A couple of years back one came up for sale on a local internet auction. It was a 10 bore, barrels worthless, checkering totally gone, and a broken firing pin. However, the engraving was excellent. My guess is that the owner just thought it was a wall hanger. I put in an opening bid of $300. On the final day another person bid $325. I bid $335, and was glued to the computer the finally minutes waiting to be out bid. I wasn't. I put another $2400 into the new barrels and checkering and firing pin. The outcome was a gun as good as any ever made. I had the chokes done mod/mod and use it most frequently for snow geese in Sask. with 3 inch loads.
I also have a Charles Boswell 10 bore that Briley did for me. And last year picked up two more old 10s. One was a remarkable deal. I paid $1100 for it from a dealer. It is a New Ithaca Double (1927) 2 7/8 inch 10 bore. I had Briley just chamber that into a 3 inch 12. I shot it several times this season with both 2 3/4 and 3 inch steel loads. It wacked the birds. I now have a LC Smith that I plan to send on down to Briley. It is a Grade 0 10 bore, made in 1912. I paid $700 for it. It will truely be a goose gun, as the weight is 10 pounds, 4oz.
While the total cost of first buying, then having those old 10s reworked might be more than you are interested in spending, I wanted to make you aware of the possiblity. As for just going ahead and buying a 2 3/4 inch old double, there is a world of them out there. As an example, several years ago I purchased a WW Greener F25 12 bore down in Australia. I leave it down there so I don't need to go through the nightmare of taking a gun into the country. I had it opened to LIGHT mod/mod. I shoot steel 3s with it, and it certainly kills the ducks!
Most important to me, I am happy that you want an old double. Those guns go right in train with hand carved decoys, Barnegat boats. They go a long way to make the day more enjoyable. Best of luck. Worth Mathewson
 
Worth I like how you think. I have a 10 GA pump that shots and point wonderfully. I think it is because of the weight and length. About all sxs are made for upland and just too light for the blind. I will need to keep my eye out for a good old 10 sxs, but I think they are like hen's teeth around here.

Also I am still regretting not buying a copy of every book you had for sale at the Oregon Waterfowl festival. I'll have to bring more cash next time.
 
Worth.....When you rechamber an old 10ga, do you have new barrels made or sleeve the old barrels? Do you have any problems with the old wood absorbing the recoil of the new modern loads? Sure wish you were still in the double gun selling business!......Thanks.
 
Jeff, I was interested in your post regarding older doubles. Over the years I have had many, and shot all with steel shot. No problem after taking the tight chokes out. Without question, my favorite guns are based around old 10 bores. While not cheap, they can be made into wonderful waterfowling guns. I have taken old 10s, sent them down to Briley's and had them re-barreled and chambered into 3 inch 12. The cost involved is $2000.00. I now have five old 10s reworked. Two are W&C Scott backaction sidelocks. One of these is the Premier Grade. That was truely a remarkable find. In the early 1880s the Premier cost more than any other English gun, even a Purdey. Over the years I have only seen two or three of these Premiers up for sale, and all were priced at over $5000.00. A couple of years back one came up for sale on a local internet auction. It was a 10 bore, barrels worthless, checkering totally gone, and a broken firing pin. However, the engraving was excellent. My guess is that the owner just thought it was a wall hanger. I put in an opening bid of $300. On the final day another person bid $325. I bid $335, and was glued to the computer the finally minutes waiting to be out bid. I wasn't. I put another $2400 into the new barrels and checkering and firing pin. The outcome was a gun as good as any ever made. I had the chokes done mod/mod and use it most frequently for snow geese in Sask. with 3 inch loads.
I also have a Charles Boswell 10 bore that Briley did for me. And last year picked up two more old 10s. One was a remarkable deal. I paid $1100 for it from a dealer. It is a New Ithaca Double (1927) 2 7/8 inch 10 bore. I had Briley just chamber that into a 3 inch 12. I shot it several times this season with both 2 3/4 and 3 inch steel loads. It wacked the birds. I now have a LC Smith that I plan to send on down to Briley. It is a Grade 0 10 bore, made in 1912. I paid $700 for it. It will truely be a goose gun, as the weight is 10 pounds, 4oz.
While the total cost of first buying, then having those old 10s reworked might be more than you are interested in spending, I wanted to make you aware of the possiblity. As for just going ahead and buying a 2 3/4 inch old double, there is a world of them out there. As an example, several years ago I purchased a WW Greener F25 12 bore down in Australia. I leave it down there so I don't need to go through the nightmare of taking a gun into the country. I had it opened to LIGHT mod/mod. I shoot steel 3s with it, and it certainly kills the ducks!
Most important to me, I am happy that you want an old double. Those guns go right in train with hand carved decoys, Barnegat boats. They go a long way to make the day more enjoyable. Best of luck. Worth Mathewson
Click to expand...
why wouldn't you just load bismuth shot and shoot the 10 ga as a 10 ga. i shoot an 1889 parker EH 2 frame at 8 3/4 lbs an a 1892 EH 10 on a 3 frame at 9 1/4 lbs 32 in F/F , i shoot 1 3/8 th oz bismuth BB's at geese and kills the dead at 65 yds, its murder on ducks with 1 3/8ths 4's, with the money you put into barrel work just buy loose shot and roll your own, you will love it out of your BBSB i know i do, scott
 
Being in ND I guess salt water isn't an issue.

I wouldn't shoot steel in anything choked tighter than modified. I shoot steel through a Sterlingworth built around 1930 I had opened to IC/Modified.

A Savage Fox or Stevens will get you in the game.

I don't get the chrome lining requirement since no steel ever touches the inside of the barrel using modern steel shells.

A shooter Sterlingworth can be had for less than $500. Then tops $150 bucks to have it opened.
 
lived and hunted MD for 7 years, no issues with my Smith, but also paid under $1000, no CC's just an old used gun.

Pellets shouldn't but cheap shells = cheap wads(can still get scratching), Even inside wad can do damages because the still don't compress chromed lined gives the barrell that added rigidity.
 
Worth,

Good to see you are still here on the forum. I love the English guns and have shot a few but only owned one. For a couple of years I had a W.C. Scott Bogardus Club Gun for which I paid the princely sum of $125 + shipping and insurance along with a L.C. Smith Grade 2 circa 1899. I wished I had kept the Scott even with about 10% finish and decent bores, i.e. a touch of light pitting for a few inches in front of the chambers. Alas, I ran into a guy in Birmingham, not the original Birmingham, at a gunshow who also had a Bogardus Club gun of the same 12 bore with the next consecutive serial number. His gun was higher conditioned than mine and he wanted considerably more for it than I reasoned I could get for mine so I sold it to him. Oh well.

As for other English guns I've shot, the nicest was probably a 1920's Boss & Co. under & over I shot a round with at Grinders Switch sporting clays.Sweet gun. I also got to shoot a few birds with one of Mr. P's guns circa 1900, a beautiful S/S 12 bore game gun. A very favorite of the English guns I shot was a Churchill 25 (Hercules) that handled better than most 20's. It was choked 1/4 and 1/4 so it would be better for the woods than the marsh.

Back in the High School days a friend of mine showed up at his first Dove hunt with a Webley & Scott 28 gauge and the 20 gauge ammunition he had to shoot in it (his first hunt of any kind ever). We drove back in to town and after going to three stores found some ammo for it. Darryl couldn't shoot it for spit so I loaned him my 12 gauge and proceeded to limit on doves with the beautiful Webley. I asked Darryl who had loaned him the gun and he told me his Dentist had. I went and met the guy who had a smattering of English guns including a W & S 20 gauge, hence the mistaken shells on the dove hunt. But the older guy had two guns that really tweaked my nipples and here is where my memory is hazy. I know one gun was a W. W. Greener Farkiller and the other gun was either a Thomas Bland or a J. & W. Tolley. One gun was a 10 bore and the other an 8 bore but I don't remember which maker, which gauge. If I had to guess I would think the Greener was a 10 gauge. Anyway, he told me that come duck season I could borrow them and shoot ducks. Firstly, I took the 10 gauge to the local management area and bagged a limit of ducks, even the fact that it was not 3 1/2" didn't seem to matter to me or the ducks. A few days later I took the 8 gauge out. The dentist had rolled his own loads using Remington industrial ammo that a steelmill buddy of his procured the empties for. I think his load was something like 2 1/2 or 2 5/8 ounces of Copper-plated 2 shot. It was sweet and I ended up with two Mallards taken in the vicinity of 80 yards with three shots fired total, the first a miss. Both birds were dead considerably before they hit the water. I don't understand the mentality of the 10 gauge limit, a nicely built 8 gauge is a wonderful waterfowler. Truth be told and the gun being English I doubt one in ten wardens would have known what it was if I was checked. The gun handled much better than any of the cheap Iberian or Italian 10 bore guns of those days.

As for the Becker barreled HE Fox, the chokes are the value. Other than those tubes, an HE is just another American factory gun. I purchased the gun for $700 a few years ago from a friends father, who while being an absolutely marvelous wingshot couldn't hit spit with the Fox, and he is a devout 10 gauge S/S man. Good for me. I was telling Eric the other day that I could remember a gunshow here in Alabama (1980's) where a dealer had three HE doubles in reasonable condition for the same price as standard Sterlingworths $300-$400. I'll bet that $800 to $850 would have liberated the lot. The collectors hadn't figured them out yet. Collectors don't like to collect what they don't know about ...... period! After McIntosh's book came out, Fox prices when crazy. First Parker, then L.C.Smith, then Fox, then Lefever. Truth is, the higher grades of any of them are really only fancy finished factory guns. The Brits must think us queer, I mean Purdeys or Holland really only made to one quality ........ the best. If you couldn't afford that, just commisioned I suppose, you bought your shotgun from Army & Navy or a Birmingham firm.

P.S. I bought the Boothroyd Directory when it first came out and used to carry it to gunshows.
 
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Another story to relate involving my HE Fox. Perhaps six or seven years ago, Eric P., his neighbor Tommy, a mutual friend Joey Wolk, and Eric's son Thomas and I were hunting a favorite spot, Willow Point. Someone cripped a Mallard that came down perhaps 50 yards distant. Several people began banging at the duck as it rapidly put distance between itself and us. I finally yelled for them to stop shooting, pulled the Super out of it's case, loaded a 2 3/4", 1 1/4 oz Kent no-tox shell in the gun. I drew a bead on the bird, perhaps 75-80 yards distant now. Bang! Dead duck. The look of astonishment on their faces was a Kodak moment, deer caught in headlights. Somebody said Damn! Priceless.
 
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