???What double barrel to buy???

J

Jeff Fleischut

Member
I have been wanting to buy a older L.C. Smith, Parker or something similar to gun with. What I'd the bust one to buy that wont have any problems with the modern steel shot.
 
Jeff,
Welcome to the website...Sorry I haven't a gun recommendation for you but you may want to first take shooting lessons...I do have a recommendation for that...Good luck in your search and I'm sure some of these fine gentlemen will give you valuable advice...
Bruce
 
If I could afford a Parker in good enough shape to hunt with I would spend the money for non-tox substitutes.
I shoot a lot of steel in older single barrel guns but that is a completely different animal. Maybe the later LCs with open chokes would be ok. Winchester M24 opened up could probably take almost anything. I still think some of those older stocks might take a beating with any high speed loads.

Tim
 
I have a pair of beretta silverhawks . one 12 and one 20
they are modern guns that can take steel shot and you get a lot of gun for the money when compared to some others in their league .
 
For modern steel shot, barrels should be open choked enough, shoot slower(less pressure) steel loads, barrel clearances are sufficent and stock isn't oil soaked or cracking. I shoot a number of old guns for waterfowl and upland. For waterfowl, my everyday gun is a 1926 LC Smith Long Range, orginally chambered in 3". I have had the chokes opened up to mod/IC and I have had the stock glass bedded. Beware of any gun that has had chambers opened, barrels thickness in the highest pressure area could be a problem. Always have a competent double gunsmith look it over, a lot of them aren't. If you are willing to spend money on shells, try RST, they have slower non-tox that would be safe in a lot more guns.

LC Smiths right now are pretty cheap, they have strong actions and generally good barrels to shoot steel with. The biggest issue will be a stock on a Smith gun. So many are cracked and will crack especially if oil soaked. Finding one with open chokes can be hard as well, but that can be done for about $50 a tube. Also look for a regular framed gun as it adds some weight and additional metal. 3" guns like mine are very hard to find now and have a higher sticker price.

Parkers aren't cheap, there actions aren't as strong as a Smith, so they will shoot loose and stocks can crack but not as prone as a Smith. They came in a variety of sizes and weight barrels, look for a beefy one frame size 2 are higher.

Fox's 12ga's can be found cheap, actions are good, and stocks can crack as well not as prone as a Smith. barrells had different weights, look for heavier weighted gun.

Others that could be canidates,
remington 1900, but dont know much about them.
Uncle Dan Lefevers, they have an adjustable actions so they can be tightened when shot loose.
winchester 21 and 24, beside my opinion the 21 is the ugliest thing on the planet, they are stout guns, and are very spendy. know nothing about the 24.
Tons of english guns could be canidates, but price points for a waterfowl gun are a bit high, but possible.

Stay from the ithicas, flues or NID, actions are not strong.
there are many other small brands you would really need to research them out.

Good luck
 
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I will add that it would be hard to find but an older 10ga gun that has had permanent 12ga chamber sleeves put in professionally. My brother has a prussian JP sauer, like that, it iis a big gun that he will shoot anything through. Acts like the modern back boring, accepts 3 1/2" shells.
 
If you are not married to the idea of gunning with an older SXS, I have some recommendations. Not knowing your budget I'll list three.
Stoeger makes several SXS shotguns in .410, 20ga and 12ga. I have used one for layout divers and was very successful.
At the tail end of the2012 season I bought a CZ Ringneck 12ga. Awesome gun, steel shot proofed and choke tube system included.
I am currently looking at aquiring a Webley and Scott's 2000 serires SXS. They have chokes, steel shot proofed and come with auto ejectors.
So there are some good, great and outstanding modern choices out there for you to consider. Good luck, and safe gunning.
 
I got the SxS bug a while back and after doing some research just bought an Husqvarna 12 gauge SxS. Gun was built in between 1950 - 1952 and has fluid steel barrels, nice walnut english style stock. The gun is rated at 95% with a price point under $900. It appears these guns were made under license with Sauer and Sohn and are similar to the Sauer's. Interestingly note - in the waning days of WWII the Russians highjacked the Sauer plant and sent the machinery and tooling to Bakial which provided the start up for their shotgun industry, I spoke to a gun smith that does alot of SxS work and he has no problem opening up the chokes which are currently extra full and full and taking the chamber to 3". I intend use this as a 'shooter' and currently plan to load ITX shot at 11/4 and 13/8 shot charge weights. Should be interesting to see how this works out.
 
David I was very dissapointed with my CZ ringneck purchase. The selector quit working and needed to be taken apart and polished to work smoothly. The next season it trapped a shell in front of the extractor making it non functioning. It was one of those days where if you left the blind you killed it for everyone else. All I achieved that day was fetching ducks. After two fails in hunting experiences I got rid of the weapon and back to my flawless SBE I.
Hope you have better luck with that model than I did.

I am building savings for a higher end SXS to purchase in the next two years
 
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Tom,

Thanks for the heads up on the CZ. Couple of questions, did CZ stand by the gun and fix it? What shells were you using when the extractor trapped it? I am always curious about gun failures. I am sorry you had bad hunts witht that gun. So far, mine has operated flawlessly (knock wood). Have you looked into Webley and Scott's 2000 and 3000 series of SXS? I am looking at aquiring one of the 2000 series and would appreciate any feedback you might have? What "upper end" gun are you saving for?
Thanks again, I'll keep a close eye on my Ringneck.

Dave
 
They would have looked at it and repaired it. Even though CZ imports from Huglu shotguns in Turkey to a place local for me I could not drive down and hand it off. Plus I could not get a definite timeframe so I went to my local smith and he took care of the selector. I took care of the trapped shell at home and shot the gun in a no hunt situation without issues after that. I cannot remember if it was a Fiocchi or Winchester I was shooting. I have never had shell issues with either brand before.

Not sure what I will go with when I get saved up but I enjoy shooting the double gun.
 
I can't remember what the manufacturer is, but the Turkish guns that Academy Sports is carrying now are supposed to be very high quality in all aspects except for engraving and come at a very fine price point. Hard to beat a modern Turkish gun with plenty of aftermarket and OEM choke tubes options for <$500
 
Jeff, I would try to buy a good used gun that you can get parts for and reliable. The imports have been a problem for a while. Quality control is not the best.
It all depends what you want to spend on a SxS. Gun show is a good place, your local gun shop also. Ask in the gun shop, might be in the back. Put up a want ad at the gun club.
 
Just a few thoughts on modern guns. Most of the inexpesive stuff is made in Turley now days, even the $2000 price tagged Webley. A lot of these guns look nice, but as someone else pointed out quality control is an issue. Second putting that kind of money down on any new turkish gun, you will never see that money again, collectors and afficendos's won't be in the secondary market for these guns. For one its realibility, two there are many other quality guns that have shown through time that are reliable and have excellent workmanship. As with most items there are price brackets, under $1000 generally you are looking at new junk or sifting through some quality but not fancy spainish and Italian guns. $1000-$2500 now your into some quality spainish, Italian, and german guns. This price range has some of the best bang for your buck on the used/new market, both in quality and aesthics. names like Zoli/Rizzini, Renato Gamba, Merkel, Grulla, higher end beretta, Bernardelli, AYA and Ugartechea's can be found all over this range. Above that price bracket anything goes and for me is out of the hunting gun catogeory. If I was going spend in the $2500-above range, I would save my pennies and be looking at a custom made Armi Poli to my specs and design.

Be carefull more and more companies are turniing to turkey and are reluctant to advertise as such. The new V bernardelli's come to mind, all manafactureing is done in Turkey, but it is assembled in Italy, so it still stamped Italy.
 
I love them doubles! I'm currently using a 1960's Antonio Zoli 12ga with 28 inch barrels, 3 inch chambers, vented rib. I've used, tried, traded a variety of doubles over the last several years. I can't afford them all so I experiment with different ones. There's many options out there but so are the prices and quality. I love the old pre WWII classics but feel like you need to special loads/shot for those which can get expensive. I use to have a nice Ithaca Flues that I loaded Bismuth for it. Great shooting gun...but costly! I think most well made, good conditioned guns post WWII with opened chokes can safely handle steel shot. No guarantees that it won't score your barrel a little after awhile but shouldn't be nothing too bad. I've just purchased a nice 3 inch chambered Fox Model B 12ga that I plan on getting the chokes opened up and chance shooting steel through it. I would definitely stay away from the hot hyper-speed loads and stay with loads that aren't more than 1400 fps in order to protect your stock. What ever you think about getting, do some research and feel free to ask questions. But be prepared to get a variety of opinions.
 
There's an old saying about opinions resembling part of the human anatomy...

Mine is worth what you paid for it, but I'll chime in and say that getting a Fox or Smith that is original and opening the chokes, etc. to shoot steel isn't a great idea. To me, it would be like buying a rig of Mason Premier mallards to hunt over and then repainting them because "they don't look right". The Fox HE, LC Smith Wildfowl/Long Range and similar guns are what they are BECAUSE of the long barrels, tight chokes, etc. And, while you can argue that value doesn't matter, paying $7,000 for a Fox HE and making it a $3,500 gun after the modifications is a steep price to pay...

If you are willing to wait and hunt around, there are some that have been opened up, restocked, etc. that come up for sale once in a while, and they are generally priced lower because of the modifications. I saw an HE last night on a website that was selling for $3,000 or so that someone had put a Briley choke in ONE of the barrels...the gun was beat to pieces, probably needed a new stock, had barrel dents, etc. and was still selling for $3,000.

Honestly, if you buy a classic gun, I know the shells are outrageous, but spend the bucks on the "good" shells, even if it means it isn't your primary shooter.

You might consider a new gun, like a CZ, that can handle steel, or go a little higher in grade and try to find one of the Beretta SilverHawks, etc.

The other alternative, which might suit you well, is that the Parker Reproductions done a few years back actually did do a version of the 12 gauge DHE? grade which was safe for steel shot...not sure of the price range, but am guessing $4,000 to $6,000. They come up now and again on different sites and usually come with a canvas and leather case, etc.
 
Rick I would tend to agree with you about modifying guns. The only things i would add is at some point there is not much collector value in the gun, only valued as a shooter. Two criteria, condition and rarity are the driving factors. A fox sterlingworth, or a field grade Smith that have no case color, have numerous blemishs, will never be highy valued or sought after except as a shooter. So if the gun or features are not rare and condition is to far gone for a collector, then small thiings like opening chokes, honing barrels, glass bedding, does not take value down, in fact can be an attraction to some people.

You are also right pinions are like.....take for instance the Engish view that guns should be kept up/restored throughout their life and a premium is paid for it. As soon as a restoration is done on an american gun it greatly devaules it. I like my stuff old and orginal as possible.

I do have a coupe old decoys I feel the same way with. guns and decoys were made to be used, not rust away or sit on a shelf. So if condition is gone and there never wil be huge collector value, I am all for modifications it be put back in use.
 
Jeff,

I would seiously discourage anybody from tampering with an old classic; Parker, L.C.Smith, Fox, Ithaca, etc. They don't make them any more, therefore every one screwed up is just that. It is also my opinion that any of the older guns with more than a very small amount of choke will eventually succumb to steel shot. Steel shot has gotten much friendlier than in the beginning but will still bulge (ring) barrels in the older guns. You must remember that the older guns barrels were hand-struck to give them their lively feel and graceful lines. This results in some very thin barrels in some guns. I have an XE grade, 20 gauge Fox that weighs 5 lbs. 12 oz. and the barrels are struck incredibly thin. I imagine a few rounds of steel would demolish the gun.

For waterfowling I would suggest you get a Becker barreled Super Fox, called an HE grade. It's what I did.


fox1.jpg

 
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