WOW.....bailout plan voted down....

Don't get me wrong, I am certainly NOT laughing about this situation. Hitch is the one chuckling - and with good reason.

My 401K has taken a beating, but being that I am only 36 years old, I have all the faith in the world that the situation will right itself before I am able to access that money.

I'm wierd, though. The only debt I have is on my house -- that happens to be a VERY modest home. Before all of this meltdown & slowdown, I had planned on having it paid off in 2 years. Now, it looks like it will be 3 or 4 years. After that, no debt for me. No cars, no boats, no credit cards, no student loans, nothing. Well, unless I take advantage of the current housing situation and buy a different house.

I realize that the results of all this have far reaching implications that will impact all of us, but I still have a hard time feeling bad for the companies that did this to themselves and now are crying for help. In a perfect world, they would go down in flames and everyone that did not try to profit on the upswing would go on about their business without being touched in the downfall. Much the same way I feel about all the people that got caught up in the house flipping craze a couple of years ago. They gambled on making a fortune by buying more house than they could not afford. Some profited greatly and good for 'em. Others got stuck in a $500,000 house that they paid $750,000 for (hoping to sell it for $1,000,000 in a few months) but now are stuck with it and can't sell it for $400,000 and now they are bankrupting. They got burned by the system that they were trying to manipulate.

Something is really, really wrong when a family making $80,000 a year is driving 2 new cars and living in $500,000 + homes (numbers based on my local observations).
 
over a TRILLION DOLLARS....how did that compare to the actual dollar value of the larger percentage stock drops of the past? I don't know....since I wasn't alive in '42 that one makes no difference to me except from an historical standpoint...like Jon is today I was alot younger in '87 on the other "bigger % drop", and it didn't have the impact on me that todays drop did, and will.....that said I "bet" the impact wasn't "over a Trillion"....

I'm like you Jon the only "debt" I have is the house, and I'm kicking myself daily that 6 months ago I conciously made the decision NOT to pay off the house and used the $$$$$ for other investments instead....fortunately I protected myself on those, like Hitch, but I ain't laughing, or happy, over a .42 annual pre-tax growth and never will be...

Like most people here I "know" that eventually they'll get their collective shit together and pass a package that is, while not appreciated, is more palatable but I gotta tell you that I think todays failure to support not just the sitting President but also the Republican that is in the fight of his Political life is a BIG OLD nail in the old boys coffin.....If I was anywhere near being "on the fence" about who to vote for, I'd look at the fact that 30% of the Republicans just flipped off not only the sitting President and their party, but also the guy that they hope will save them from the "other guy".....

Interesting day all the way around......forutnately I got my box of mail in ballots back from Kinko's today and will start voting in the morning....one a day for the first two weeks and then twice a day until Election day.....

Steve
 
My fishing client for tomorrow cancelled on me late this afternoon. He told me he "haven't jumped out of window yet but I should probably stay close to the phone tomorrow". Another guy that runs a fund and was going to take the Jewish holiday off and catch cohos(or whatever you call the bluish silver fish that are stuffed in every trib of S. Lake Michigan by the tens of thousands right now in their pre-spawn surliest of attitudes) all day from my homemade casting deck on my Lund. He was apologetic but I cut him off and said,"You know what, you do what you have to do to ease the minds of your clients and hang in there".

Trickle down in effect! Half a house payment down the tubes!
 
Steve in regards too your ballot stuffing comment remember you hail from the state who just kept counting and recounting until they could put chrissy in office.
As far as the bail out goes my simple mind says why not let the banks flounder and offer those subprimers (myself included) a chance too pay off there homes at a loss too the bank say 80 cents on the dollar. the bank looses a portion that they deserve too lose americans get a chance too pull them selves up by their boot straps and help fix the problem instead of be the problem.too top it all off, theoretically you would then have 20% equity on all the sub prime loans out there. just my lil hairbrained idea probbly full of holes you could drive through but im 29 i can and will recover from all this be fore retirement
 
because its not just about the ARM mortgages that have defaulted, or might default anymore.....its way more involved than that and just letting the ARM holders "pay off" won't solve the problem.......

I hear you on the "multiple recounts"....we just wanted to beat Florida and be better than the LEAST COAST in all regards.....

Just imagine though, if I had "voted early-and often then" I could have put Reichert over the top.....speaking of which I see he flipped off the Party, and McCain today....how much support do you think he'll get from the party in his campaign in thanks for that?

Steve
 
I think todays failure to support not just the sitting President but also the Republican that is in the fight of his Political life is a BIG OLD nail in the old boys coffin.....If I was anywhere near being "on the fence" about who to vote for, I'd look at the fact that 30% of the Republicans just flipped off not only the sitting President and their party, but also the guy that they hope will save them from the "other guy".....
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Steve, I think its more accurate to say that they were responding to the will of their respective constituencies as opposed to failing to support anyone. That is after all their job, and one that we've collectively as a nation allowed them to ignore for far to long. I think some of them are realizing just how close the american public is to figureing out why we REALLY have a 2nd amendment. If the vast majority of the public were'nt lazy, self centered, mind numbed drones we might already have gotten there. Perhaps thats somewhat hyperbolic, but opposeing the public will was apperently somethng they didn't have the stones for. Also Despite the talking heads and political leadership pointing at the G.O.P Pelosi could'nt get more than a few Dems to toe the line either.

P.S. Big Brother, I was just spouting out my nether orifice. please don't ad this to my file. Darn that real name rule anyway.
 
I'm not going to look it up but I'm almost sure it was a much bigger percentage of GDP. I don't know how it couldn't have been. There was also a lot more things going on at the time of the big crash in 29. I'm not claiming to know a lot about it but I try to look at these in simple terms or it will make me crazy. I'm sure not saying that we should not have some sort of bail out but I don't think a process that took a decade to create should be 'fixed' in a few days by all the people, both sides, who mostly ignored it. I'm not sure why they need all of this at once and right this minute, many of the companies that want to get rid of bad loans are solvent even with them. I guess I'm not smart enough to know why that is a problem.

Tim
 
who voted NO were either up for election or had been through tough,close, fights in their last effort.......and I wonder also if any of them called the constituants after the 777 point drop and asked...."how do you like the NO vote now"....

Alot of all of the above I'm sure......and maybe we will see, as a result, some changes in personel....maybe we'll make a start at changing things...

Hey....I can dream can't I?

Steve
 
Scott - the biggest problem that I see with your idea is this: Why should people with sub-prime mortgages get a 20% discount? What would I, with a 30 year fixed at an affordable rate get for my tax dollar investment in your mortgage?

Steve - I agree with a lot of what you just said above, but let's not hang it on one administration or president.



Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending

By STEVEN A. HOLMES
Published: September 30, 1999

In a move that could help increase home ownership rates among minorities and low-income consumers, the Fannie Mae Corporation is easing the credit requirements on loans that it will purchase from banks and other lenders.

The action, which will begin as a pilot program involving 24 banks in 15 markets -- including the New York metropolitan region -- will encourage those banks to extend home mortgages to individuals whose credit is generally not good enough to qualify for conventional loans. Fannie Mae officials say they hope to make it a nationwide program by next spring.

Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.

In addition, banks, thrift institutions and mortgage companies have been pressing Fannie Mae to help them make more loans to so-called subprime borrowers. These borrowers whose incomes, credit ratings and savings are not good enough to qualify for conventional loans, can only get loans from finance companies that charge much higher interest rates -- anywhere from three to four percentage points higher than conventional loans...



Shame on them for pushing this program. Shame, Shame, SHAME!!!! On the current administration for turning their back on this financial perfect storm that has been brewing for the past decade -- all the while, people from both sides of the fence warning of its impending doom.

What really sucks is that our next President, whoever ends up in office, will be another politician. Ron Paul was basically lauged out of the primaries for being a kook, but dare I say that I think that what this country needs is a kook like him in office to run this country? Someone with real business sense and no political ties. I'm not saying that he is the answer, but I'm sure that our 2 choices now are not the answer.

Makes me glad that I have been investing in weaponry and munitions the past couple of years...
 
President, one Administration, or even one party....cause IMO their all a bunch of self serving sonsabitches who will shout..."I warned about this X years ago" and then take money, (and who cares who got the most if they took ONE CENT their guilty to me), from the same people that you have said you were suspicious of....or worse you hire the bastards to be your advisors...(oh and BTW I've been trying for two days to verify the claims that Obama's Chief Advisors are ex-Fannie May Executives and have been able to but di stumble on the fact that one of McCains advisors is was Fannie Mae's chief lobbyist--things that make you say 'hmmmmmmmmm").....

Like I said when I was younger, and had another 25 years ahead of me to retirement I took these things less personally....9-11 scrapped my first retirment plans...this go round has scrapped my second....unlike you I don't have the time to wait for this shit to "happen three or four more times" because the people that we elect to work for us aren't....

So TRUST ME...I'm pissed at ALL OF EM...past and present...and if you are an encumbant...well then I'm pissed at you "future" in advance....

Steve
 
who voted NO were either up for election or had been through tough,close, fights in their last effort.......and I wonder also if any of them called the constituants after the 777 point drop and asked...."how do you like the NO vote now"....

Alot of all of the above I'm sure......and maybe we will see, as a result, some changes in personel....maybe we'll make a start at changing things...

Hey....I can dream can't I?

Steve
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Fist every one who voted for it are up for election too.

The SD democrat voted no and she was going to win easily before this. Pelosi never had the votes because many of the new dems are fiscal conservatives. Bush is not a fiscal conservative, can we get that out once and for all. He may be when it comes to social issues and military but look at what he does every time something bad happens... he grows the government. McCain has been saying for days there was no deal and only in the past couple days did he think there was only because the leaders in the house and senate don't listen to their members. It should have been no surprise to anyone. I don't think most of them will stop this in the long run but you can't know what is in this kind of a bill in one day. The Senate was going to take three days on it and the voted there are much more assured.

btw The Dow was already down over 300 when the no vote happened. Even when they thought there was a deal it wasn't doing well.

Tim
 
recovered the "down 300" and then surged like Ike's Storm surge if it had passed?

McCain didn't think there was a deal? I missed that one...I heard him say....this is good, this works, we need to set aside our differences and pass this for the good of the Country.....no " " cause those weren't his "exact" words but the only time I heard him "imply" that he thought there was "no deal" was after each attempt failed and he was trying to show it wasn't his fault....

GM and United are next....it ain't over till the Fat Lady sings and that chunky girl isn't even half way through her warmup....

Steve
 
the political future and future of our nation will be a wild ride voting early and often is all one can do too fix it unless you, want too get spiritual couse it may take a miracle too climb out of this one
 
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than a Druid....I've got the oak stump and the appropriate ringlets of laurel and other 'sacred" totems.....distinct shortage of "virgins" these days for sacrafice though so you may well be right as "miracles" are tough without lots of virgins.....

Steve
 
I heard tonight, included in the dems that voted no, were most of the muckity mucks. Pelosi thought she would get the republican numbers and told these cronies to vote no so they could blame it on the republicans when their constituents bitched about it. How sick is that shit?
 
Steve, are you really a follower of the old Gods? I think the pacific northwest is a bit far for the Sidhe, Although.... perhaps not too far for Mannanan mac Lir. Maybe you're an avatar, at least going by your avatar. Hee Hee.
 
I might not have been clear about McCain but he was clear that there was no deal when the first and maybe even the second 'deal' was announced. He then got too close to the leadership in the house and senate, I think they talked everyone in the country into believing that there was a deal except for the ones who had to vote on it. Saying there was a deal shouldn't have been the comfort wall street was looking for. I don't think most of the drop today will stay if there is a real deal in the next week or two and I don't think anything is going to be saved if it is going under in the near future anyways. I don't doubt it will drop more in the next few days and weeks but who knows if it would have went up had they passed this.

I'm not saying it isn't bad but that this should not have been a surprise to wall. Had they woke up today to the leaders in the house honestly saying we need another day or two to work this through you think it would have dropped 777? I think Bush and Pelosi wanted this in a rush to look like they are doing something. I think Reid wants this done because he has no clue what's going on.

I don't think GM and United are the elephants in the room. Credit card debt has to be looming and a couple months ago I heard there is more debt on farmers then there was in the 80's when the farm 'crisis' happened. Talk about inflated prices, cropland has been outrageous the past decade. I don't think that will last just like crappy houses couldn't keep going up so people could flip em.

Tim
 
above except that I do think at least a part of the market drop today was the "thought" that there was a deal and then the notice that there wasn't....

I do think this will hurt McCain...watch the next poll and see if his numbers don't drop and Obama comes out looking like he knows something, or did something, that he doesn't....

I'll even concede that your estimate that credit card debt and the farm problem trumps my GM and United, (which really should have been the Airline Industry in general)....

Not over by a long shot I think we both agree on that...and nobody wins.....well nobody but Hitch with his earnings pre-tax ytd......

Steve
 
card carrying High Priest as a matter of fact...got the OFFICIAL certificate on the wall, gold seals, ribbons, AUTHENTIC authorizing signatures and all.....I'll show it to you when you come west....it's much more impressive on the Full Moon under the flickering light of a torch or too.....

Wasson is of the order as well although not "ordained" as a high Priest..

Steve
 
Cool, but I'm warning you if I see a flint sickle I'll walk 9 times around you widdershins. Actually I've studied everything I could over the years regarding all things celtic, especially Welsh and Irish, it being my cultural heritage and all. I think Frazier was spot on on a lot of stuff. I'd love some reference works to chase. Wow that was a heck of a thread hijack.... Eric Esper AKA Hunteramargin, Fergus mac Roi, and Setanta on forums where they don't make you use your real name!
 
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