KS Gov Vetos Proposed Non-resident Waterfowler Restrictions

agree, why should a state be able to restrict NR hunting on state and federal waters. and it was being heavily pushed by just a hand full of hunters. if they want to limit NR's then go to a draw like SD.
 
KS has "guide" problems. Get rid of the guides, get rid of some of the problems. Another is the lack of public land. Yes, they have WIHA lands. Most of it I have been on isn't worth anything for wildlife and is just another subsidy for landowners. This isn't just a waterfowl issue there. I won a guided turkey hunt to east KS around 2014-2015. The guide was in his first year of guiding in KS after seemingly being ran out of another state. I spoke with him after season and he bragged that his outfit had took down over 200 turkey that first year. Over 50 of those were Jakes. He was just one guy with access to a handful of properties. There were lots more like him.

I do think that if you restrict OOSers, you gotta find state funds for management. I don't want my federal tax dollars being spent somewhere I cannot have the option of enjoying them. I have duck hunted places out there since 2008. OOSers may be causing over-crowding, but they aren't the ones causing the problems. OOSers aren't the ones filling the pits at CB with beer cans and twinkie wrappers. They just get blamed for it.
 
Steven Alexander said:
I do think that if you restrict OOSers, you gotta find state funds for management. I don't want my federal tax dollars being spent somewhere I cannot have the option of enjoying them. I have duck hunted places out there since 2008. OOSers may be causing over-crowding, but they aren't the ones causing the problems. OOSers aren't the ones filling the pits at CB with beer cans and twinkie wrappers. They just get blamed for it.
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My sentiments as well. If non-resident access is curtailed fed funds are forfeited.
 
Eric Patterson said:
www.ksn.com

Kansas hunting and fishing license bill fails to pass after veto, what that means

A bill to restore discounted hunting and fishing licenses to older adults in Kansas and make big changes for non-resident waterfowl hunters is dead in the water this year after it was vetoed by Gov…
www.ksn.com

Yay!
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Sounds like the initial bill, as first introduced, was a fine example of taking care of their elderly population.
Unfortunately there were those who "tacked on" the restrictive measures, which the governor disagreed with. While I applaud the Governor's actions, it is unfortunate for those elderly citizens, which the bill (as introduced) was intended to benefit.
 
This kind of legislation is going to become more widespread, in a tit for tat between states. Unless and until the Feds put the brakes on funding for states that engage in this crap it's going to get worse. Maybe DJT Jr. will put the bug in his dad's ear, Jr. likes to hunt ducks among other things.
 
SJ Fairbank said:
This kind of legislation is going to become more widespread, in a tit for tat between states. Unless and until the Feds put the brakes on funding for states that engage in this crap it's going to get worse. Maybe DJT Jr. will put the bug in his dad's ear, Jr. likes to hunt ducks among other things.
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10-15 years ago I was thinking we were going to live through a golden age of hunting as the old timers aged out and new hunters failed to recruit. It is clear, however, that I bought into the R3 propaganda machine and the precipitous decline they foretold was a fable. Hunter numbers may be down some in some areas, but those that continue have more time to hunt and more money to spend and more technology at their disposal. Hunt quality is down as habitat loss collides with hunters who have more time and money to fight for the resource.

I honestly do not understand the nuance of who "owns" migratory animals. I know for a fact that the law is very clear that animals that aren't managed by the feds are held in trust by the states for the benefit of the residents of the state. The interpretation of what benefits the residents of the state varies, but includes selling licenses to non-residents at a higher premium to raise funds or limiting the number of non-residents in increase resident hunt quality. I'm 100% in Wyoming because the opportunity for non-residents to hunt big game has evaporated across the west due to too many people wanting too few tags. The ability to freelance out of state for ducks will follow suit.

There are crazy changes out there in how people hunt, it used to be a big deal to get a turkey grand slam, now the thing is the US Super Slam. Talk about increasing pressure.
 
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Tod

Looking back the golden age in my lifetime was the mid 90s. The factors were (1) Water returned to the prairies and duck numbers exploded. (2) Hunter numbers nationwide were still low from the late 80s losses (small bag short season). (3) North Alabama hunter numbers were a fraction of what they've become. (4) Lake Guntersville had amazing millfoil coverage and little boat/hunter traffic. (5) Nearby TVA swamps were free of invasive vegetation and loaded with ducks. (6) A hunter had total freedom to move about seven days a week.

Just the opposite of what we have today.
 
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Eric Patterson said:
Tod

Looking back the golden age in my lifetime was the mid 90s. The factors were (1) Water returned to the prairies and duck numbers exploded. (2) Hunter numbers nationwide were still low from the late 80s losses (small bag short season). (3) North Alabama hunter numbers were a fraction of what they've become. (4) Lake Guntersville had amazing millfoil coverage and little boat/hunter traffic. (5) Nearby TVA swamps were free of invasive vegetation and loaded with ducks. (6) A hunter had total freedom to move about seven days a week.

Just the opposite of what we have today.
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Ability to hunt on your own terms is pretty key (and birds too :) ). I still hoping for a golden age of some sort, but I've had things pretty good, so I shouldn't complain.
 
"Golden Days" in Mobile, AL area was from 94-2003. Though hunter numbers went way up between 97-2000, there was plenty of birds and water to spread out the pressure. The number of gadwalls, ringnecks, greater and lesser scaup, and teal was simply amazing.
Then the hurricanes of 2004-05 and droughts of 2006-2007, killed back our grassbeds. Grass beds slowly came back but changes in migration patterns and winter climate meant the birds numbers did not. I still had some great seasons from 2010 - 2019, but nothing compared to 1997-2003.
Barring a move from Tampa to just about anywhere else, my duck hunting days are over. I still have about 6 dzn decoys (not the 13 I had before the move), my boat and guns. BUt they sit idle. Fishing year round has taken the place.
 
Carl

I was in Mobile in February and drove over the Mobile Bay causeway. I did not see one duck. I only saw a couple blind remnants. It looks like the ducks are gone along with the hunters. Back in the 80s there were signs of duck hunting everywhere. They are no more. I wonder if the upper delta is dead too.
 
Clinton John said:
Well there went Kansas hunters chances of kicking out some of the flat brims and fly by nite goose guides for their 25/26 seasons.
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I've made my share of rants about "flat brims" and insta-guides, but I don't think many of them are yuppies. The real yuppies from back in the 1980's and 1990's all got rich and are hunting private ranches and clubs that monopolize access to public waters and public waterfowl. That's one side of the shrinking opportunity spectrum, and the concentration of those of us who can't afford private access into fewer and fewer spots where the rest of us can hunt. (Whether we do it with a flatbrim, a Jones cap, grandpa's old tweed cap.)
 
Yes. This proposed legislation is the cause of much wailing and gnashing of teeth on another hunting website.

I live in Arkansas, so I'm not going to say that I don't understand the Kansas residents wanting to go back to "the good old days" of about 20 years ago when there were almost no out of state plates, and "nobody" was hunting ducks in Kansas but the locals. I get it fully - Arkansas sells over 100,000 duck stamps, and over half are to non-residents. I miss the years prior to 1999 when we sold 35,000 stamps.

I agree with what Tod said. There may be fewer hunters, but in the states with good (or even average) hunting, you'd never know it. People are more mobile, vehicles are more reliable, and people are willing to drive insane distances to hunt for a few days and drive home. Add in social media and the inane desire for "likes" and YouTube fame, and it's a witches' brew from hell. And that doesn't begin to account for the changes in guiding and duck hunting as an industry.

To hear some of the Kansas residents tell it, there was never an issue anywhere until a few years ago, and the Federal wardens are bringing in support from other states due to all of the problems caused by the non-residents, primarily shooting over limits and boundary violations in the refuge areas. Supposedly up to 75% of the vehicles in the parking areas were from out of state, but that was anecdotal from the people pushing for the restrictions on non-residents.

I didn't agree with the restrictions, because I am generally against limiting opportunity unless it's across the board due to property size or for quality of hunt, and by the admission of some who were staunch supporters, the restrictions were NOT about reducing pressure on the ducks or decreased harvests as a result of more people. It was strictly about not wanting "too many" people hunting in their public spots, so the best way to do it (without affecting them) was to cut the non-residents, while still allowing hunting all day, seven days a week. Having said all that, however, I know that as far as State lands go...their State, their rules.

One of the few things I really took issue with was the inclusion of Federal grounds in that restriction as well. I'm not sure how a State can restrict US citizens from US property based on residence alone. It seemed like if it did go through, it was going to mean a lawsuit at some point, and that could've been the worst outcome if the NWR managers and USACE personnel just decided that the easiest course was to allow NO hunting at all rather than dealing with the aggravation.

There have been implications that Delta Waterfowl lobbied against the bill and threatened a lawsuit if it passed, but I have zero confirmation of anything done or not done by Delta. One poster on another site has apparently filed a complaint with the State AG or elsewhere claiming that Delta violated its 501c3 status by improperly lobbying somehow, and he wants to see them lose the 501c3 since they were against the legislation.
 
Eric Patterson said:
Carl

I was in Mobile in February and drove over the Mobile Bay causeway. I did not see one duck. I only saw a couple blind remnants. It looks like the ducks are gone along with the hunters. Back in the 80s there were signs of duck hunting everywhere. They are no more. I wonder if the upper delta is dead too.
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Upper Delta is pretty much a wood duck only things any more. I’ve not heard of anyone e
Getting into mallards in years.
The lower Delta and Bay still have plenty of food (eel grass and milfoil). But the birds just don’t show up in numbers anymore.
 
Rick

I really appreciate your words on this matter. You have given this plenty of thought.

Like you and Tod I have also seen significant hunter utilization increase on public hunting grounds. Unlike the nationwide trend of fewer duck hunters our state stamp sales have kept up with the population increase. Madison County has increased 75% in population since 1990 and so have hunter numbers. With every fiber of my duck hunting self I believe weekday closures and lotteries worsen the crowding issues with no upside. The worst part of it is on our WMAs where they studied the impact of weekday closures there was no evidence it improved waterfowl utilization. I mean NO empirical evidence at all. Yet they won't go back to more days for hunters to choose from.

The best way I can describe the situation is take a water balloon and fill it with air and tie it closed. Then squeeze on it! All you do is increase the pressure in the un-squeezed area. To me it seems the solution, other than more land acquisition, is to better utilize the acreage you do have. Instead of cramming people in tighter spaces how about spreading them out? Maybe create more points of entry and better corridors of travel. Give hunters more total hours of access and decrease their density. Do that and it won't feel so damn crowded.
 
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Eric Patterson said:
Rick

I really appreciate your words on this matter. You have given this plenty of thought.

Like you and Tod I have also seen significant hunter utilization increase on public hunting grounds. Unlike the nationwide trend of fewer duck hunters our state stamp sales have kept up with the population increase. Huntsville has increased 75% in population since 1990 and so have hunter numbers. With every fiber of my duck hunting self I believe weekday closures and lotteries worsen the crowding issues with no upside. The worst part of it is on our WMAs where they studied the impact of weekday closures there was no evidence it improved waterfowl utilization. I mean NO empirical evidence at all. Yet they won't go back to more days for hunters to choose from.

The best way I can describe the situation is when you take a water balloon and fill it with air and tie it closed. Then squeeze on it! All you do is increase the pressure in the un-squeezed area. To me it seems the solution, other than more land acquisition, is to better utilize the acreage you do have. Instead of cramming people in tighter spaces how about spreading them out? Maybe create more points of entry and better corridors of travel. Give hunters more total hours of access and decrease their density. Do that and it won't feel so damn crowded.
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Eric,

The adage that has been tossed around for a while is, "nobody hates a duck hunter more than another duck hunter".

Everyone wants to have an area to themselves - it's just a fact. When I went back to trout fish in the Driftless last summer, I bypassed entire streams because of the cars in the parking areas for places that had no cars within a mile of stream or more.

What Alabama did on the WMA's was a great experiment...hey, let's have some rest during the week when fewer people hunt anyway, and see if we keep ducks around. Didn't work. Well...change it back...as you said, it just puts more pressure on weekends for no reason.

Arkansas has plenty of points of entry, but it's still a volume question. You can't fit ten gallons of water into a five gallon bucket. I liked where they were headed initially when they set up Raft Creek - have WMA's that are draw for a quality hunt, and then have WMA's that are wide open if you want to hunt regardless. Then they went away from that and decided to start restricting non-residents; Raft is still a draw on weekends, but I think it's wide open during the week. I wish they had a few more areas like it around the state, honestly. I don't necessarily like being told where to hunt within so many feet of this stake, but I do like the idea of limited access and spreading groups out.

The one change that I will stand up and say I am all for is their WRICE program; because of all of the ag changes and the loss of a lot of wintering habitat, AGFC has started paying landowners to leave their fields in stubble over the winter rather than prepping them. If the landowner will agree to allow hunting on the property, AGFC increases the payment and sets those fields up on a draw basis. They are hunting weekends only, and the drawn party has the field for the entire weekend and can hunt all day both days if they wish. I got lucky enough to hunt a couple of the fields with someone who was drawn this past season, and it was a great experience.

The other variable for us is simply water. We have hundreds of thousands of acres...IF we get rain. AGFC has implemented a water management plan on the WMA's, working towards a more natural flooding cycle rather than closing gates and filling to full pool every year from November through February. I agree with the plan, but on years where the gates aren't closed at Bayou Meto, Rainey, or elsewhere and we have a dry year (like this past season), there are unhappy people crowded into less acreage.
 
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