2025 Devlin Snow Goose Thread

[William Reinicke]

Fortunately, the epoxy usually cures before crevice corrosion sets in.

DAMN! I was bout to low ball an offer and tell you your boat is about to fall apart as the screws were probably not much of screws by now. Basing time frame off your profile pic and that pic you took when youre playing with your flip jig posted earlier today. Some time has passed sir.... them stainless screws is likely stainless dust. I guess epoxy might hold them together just wee longer.... Of course the low ball offer would of been because you need to remain safe for this community here and for your family. Just trying to help take the death trap off your hands is all.

 

[tod osier]

I'm coming out from under my rock to say hell no, then right back under...

Just becauae handsome and wise were missing?!?!

 

[HenryHawthorne]

Fortunately, the epoxy usually cures before crevice corrosion sets in.

This topic of conversation does make me curious about what actually happens to ss in wood encased in epoxy. I think I'll grab a few scraps, embed ss screws in them, and out a few coats of epoxy on them with leftovers as I work on the boat. Then leave them out in the sun and weather and salt air at the beach. Maybe start a pool on how many years it takes for the screw to start showing corrosion.

 

[RM Anderson]

Agreed, this is an interesting topic and one I've often wondered about. Consider the number of wooden boats we've read about just on this site alone. Surely they were built by competent craftsman but some still require restoration after a few years. Not long ago I read on Wooden Boat this interesting thread: https://forum.woodenboat.com/forum/building-repair/163350-
Another topic, why does the does foam in flotation compartments sealed with epoxy resin soak up moisture? Is epoxy covering a screw head without fiberglass cloth the moisture barrier we are led to believe? My thoughts are that it is not. RM

 

[tod osier]

This topic of conversation does make me curious about what actually happens to ss in wood encased in epoxy. I think I'll grab a few scraps, embed ss screws in them, and out a few coats of epoxy on them with leftovers as I work on the boat. Then leave them out in the sun and weather and salt air at the beach. Maybe start a pool on how many years it takes for the screw to start showing corrosion.

This comes up every so often and I've read enough on it and seen enough that for screws that I don't have a bit of concern. I've pulled screws out that have been buried or covered for 10-15-20 years and they look as good as new. Any stainless screw I plan to leave in is bedded in peanut butter so they are going to be isolated from water which is needed for this kind of corrosion. They need to be isolated from oxygen, but also need to be in the presence of water. Generally, screws aren't structural in these boats, so having them fail wouldn't matter anyway, so I use them in assembly and don't worry. I've pulled buried non stainless deck screws out of various boats and assemblies and they were always rusted but an attempt to bed them was not made or would it really be realistic to expect.

The place that it seems to matter is on things like bow eyes or stern eyes, but again, they need to be wet and isolated from oxygen. I've seen compelling examples of problems on large hardware, but not from a stitch and glue boat where the hidden parts are bedded in 5200. Since we are talking about flipping a boat, the next time I flip, I'll probably have a little pucker wondering what time has done to my bow and stern eyes.

 

[tod osier]

Agreed, this is an interesting topic and one I've often wondered about. Consider the number of wooden boats we've read about just on this site alone. Surely they were built by competent craftsman but some still require restoration after a few years. Not long ago I read on Wooden Boat this interesting thread: https://forum.woodenboat.com/forum/building-repair/163350-
Another topic, why does the does foam in flotation compartments sealed with epoxy resin soak up moisture? Is epoxy covering a screw head without fiberglass cloth the moisture barrier we are led to believe? My thoughts are that it is not. RM

A lot of these boats are built really shittily and hastily from what I've seen, so there is not an expectation for me that they are 100% encapsulated. Plenty of rot has been found where it it shouldn't be found, I think a lot can be attributed to poor attention to detail or poor technique.

On the "sealed" flotation compartments with water in them, there is incredible pressure on a sealed compartment that builds up when they sit in the sun. We have seen examples of some that have blown up at the seams over the years, opening the hull to deck seam. Take that positive pressure in the sun and allow the pressure to escape through whatever weakness and then set that hot boat in the water to quickly cool the chamber to develop an equally strong negative pressure to draw water in. The amount of water found in chambers is way more than the condensation it is attributed to or what could leak in, it is drawn in.

 

[HenryHawthorne]

A lot of these boats are built really shittily and hastily from what I've seen, so there is not an expectation for me that they are 100% encapsulated. Plenty of rot has been found where it it shouldn't be found, I think a lot can be attributed to poor attention to detail or poor technique.

On the "sealed" flotation compartments with water in them, there is incredible pressure on a sealed compartment that builds up when they sit in the sun. We have seen examples of some that have blown up at the seams over the years, opening the hull to deck seam. Take that positive pressure in the sun and allow the pressure to escape through whatever weakness and then set that hot boat in the water to quickly cool the chamber to develop an equally strong negative pressure to draw water in. The amount of water found in chambers is way more than the condensation it is attributed to or what could leak in, it is drawn in.

The sealed compartments have been on my mind since the start - they're about the only thing that "worry" me. My temptation is to put limber holes at the lowest points in all three from the get-go.

As for the foam itself, I've decided to go with EPS foam boards cut to size. The detail-oriented planner in me wants to cut them to create blocks of a size that I could pull out through the access holes - and maybe a light epoxy coat on each brick to keep them together and reduce moisture absorption - but that seems a lot of work for minimal advantage. I do plan to set ledges to keep the foam off the bottom of the hull.

 

[tod osier]

The sealed compartments have been on my mind since the start - they're about the only thing that "worry" me. My temptation is to put limber holes at the lowest points in all three from the get-go.

As for the foam itself, I've decided to go with EPS foam boards cut to size. The detail-oriented planner in me wants to cut them to create blocks of a size that I could pull out through the access holes - and maybe a light epoxy coat on each brick to keep them together and reduce moisture absorption - but that seems a lot of work for minimal advantage. I do plan to set ledges to keep the foam off the bottom of the hull.

The 6" screw in access hatches worked well for me, I don't think they seal well enough to pressurize, I've never had water in mine. I have them just siliconed on/in, I think. I went without a hatch cover on the bow compartment for a decade (lost it somehow, but now I have it replaced to keep the mice out).

The foam blocks will work well. you can stack a lot of them in there, but it does take some time. Having the ledges at bottom would be the icing on the cake. I think I made this argument to you already, but salvaged/scavenged float foam blocks would work great to cut up. There are people that use empty water bottles, I'd consider that, maybe, but it seems like you are filling the boat with trash.

 

[Eric Patterson]

I'm sure Henry will come up with a great way to handle it, but flipping is such a non-issue that is doesn't merit too much discussion. I built a crude turning jig that is deeper and wider than the boat that goes on the motor bolts, so it will sit upright, on its side or upside down. Turn it by lifting the bow and work 2 come-alongs - dropping one side and lifting the other. That process makes it a 15 minute and one person job.

That is one task I've never attempted. I've always just had a few friends help me roll the hull over on the lawn and set it back on a cradle. I figure one day I'll need a smarter approach like yours, especially if the boat is any bigger than a Brant.

When you flipped the Snowgoose did you run the lines to the top chords of your trusses? I know the bottom chords of most trusses are not supposed to carry much load. One the the road blocks to me dumping my friends in favor of a more professional means in my recent refurb was the thought of having to build a pair of gantry's to support the weight of the boat from above. I'm leery of using the trusses in the garage area of my shop as they are not meant to carry that kind of load.

 

[HenryHawthorne]

Not long ago I read on Wooden Boat this interesting thread: https://forum.woodenboat.com/forum/building-repair/163350-

Interesting reading for, among other reasons, the crazy multitude of opinions and home-brews! I agree with the sentiment that we overthink this. With our stitch and glue, in areas of concern the simple answer is to overbore the hole, fill with neat epoxy, and rebore to the right size for the screw. When attaching, if permanent then again fill the hole and dip the screw in neat epoxy to ensure a gap free fit. If potentially removable, do the same but with Sika or 4200 or the like. I dont think the particular product makes a lot of difference other than avoiding silicone-based products that may cause other finish issues.

 

[HenryHawthorne]

That is one task I've never attempted. I've always just had a few friends help me roll the hull over on the lawn and set it back on a cradle. I figure one day I'll need a smarter approach like yours, especially if the boat is any bigger than a Brant.

When you flipped the Snowgoose did you run the lines to the top chords of your trusses? I know the bottom chords of most trusses are not supposed to carry much load. One the the road blocks to me dumping my friends in favor of a more professional means in my recent refurb was the thought of having to build a pair of gantry's to support the weight of the boat from above. I'm leery of using the trusses in the garage area of my shop as they are not meant to carry that kind of load.

You're right, of course, though for the few hundred pounds these boats weigh and considering the load would be spread across at least 2 trusses (and that load could be spread across a good stretch of each), I personally wouldn't think twice about it.

 

[tod osier]

I always use thickened epoxy since it is so much neater to use than neat (see what I did there?). I dip/spin material on the screw and/or use a putty knife to fill the countersink.

If potentially removable, do the same but with Sika or 4200 or the like.

I don't worry about removing screws that are epoxied in, they just come out pretty easy. I use a heated screwdriver to clear the head and if the screw holds tight, I jam the screwdriver in there and heat it with a torch, very seldom do they resist very long.

dedicated epoxy screw removal screwdrivers.

 

[Eric Patterson]

You're right, of course, though for the few hundred pounds these boats weigh and considering the load would be spread across at least 2 trusses (and that load could be spread across a good stretch of each), I personally wouldn't think twice about it.

I've read that most truss bottom chords can handle 5 maybe up to 10 pounds per square foot. That allows for insulation and sheetrock. But in those cases the load is spread uniformly over the entire structure. In my case I'd be tugging on just a few trusses that span 40' far from the walls. It makes me nervous. The bottom chords are 2x6s and spaced every four feet. The living space in my shop uses load bearing trusses two feet on center with 2x10 bottom chords. I should have used them everywhere and it would be no concern to hang any boat I'd build from them.

 

[tod osier]

When you flipped the Snowgoose did you run the lines to the top chords of your trusses? I know the bottom chords of most trusses are not supposed to carry much load. One the the road blocks to me dumping my friends in favor of a more professional means in my recent refurb was the thought of having to build a pair of gantry's to support the weight of the boat from above. I'm leery of using the trusses in the garage area of my shop as they are not meant to carry that kind of load.

Just the bottom chords. The load isn't that great, since the boats aren't that heavy. I figure if I can hang on them and they don't move (was fat back then too), then they are fine. The first time I did it, I stood up a pair of 2x4 posts to the sides of the truss, but didn't the second time. My trusses are 30' and I work close to the edge rather than the middle and they are built for a big snow load.

 

[Eric Patterson]

Tod

Standing some 2x4 under the bottom chords would certainly serve as a temp brace for the load. I thought about doing that but in the end just got my friends over. In the future I'll revisit this solution. I bet it took some trial and error to get the line lengths correct and come alongs placed in the right spot to prevent needing a ladder mid flip.

 

[tod osier]

Tod

Standing some 2x4 under the bottom chords would certainly serve as a temp brace for the load. I thought about doing that but in the end just got my friends over. In the future I'll revisit this solution. I bet it took some trial and error to get the line lengths correct and come alongs placed in the right spot to prevent needing a ladder mid flip.

Do a quick load calculation and double or triple up the bottom chord to carry the load on a span that would give you plenty of room to work and make up some removable posts for the 4 corners. I'd think that would work well.

Our new barn in WY that hopefully is going up this summer the trusses are 48' and built for a 50 pound per square foot snow load. We don't get hardly that snow there, but the county has no recommendation and that was what the table showed (closer to the mountains, they get that, but we don't). Anyway, I figured that would give plenty of margin for lifting stuff like that and am glad for it (other than to pay for it).

With the steel tariffs, I'm crossing my fingers that we go as planned.

On the flip I stopped at 90 degrees on the ground and repositioned everything, that was why the turning jig had such large sides on it to steady it mid flip.

 

[HenryHawthorne]

I've read that most truss bottom chords can handle 5 maybe up to 10 pounds per square foot. That allows for insulation and sheetrock. But in those cases the load is spread uniformly over the entire structure. In my case I'd be tugging on just a few trusses that span 40' far from the walls. It makes me nervous. The bottom chords are 2x6s and spaced every four feet. The living space in my shop uses load bearing trusses two feet on center with 2x10 bottom chords. I should have used them everywhere and it would be no concern to hang any boat I'd build from them.

I believe that, particularly woth a 40' span. But a simple 2x4 with carry 50-60lbs per linear foot on a 10' span. So if yours are 2x6, with some form of temporary post to get span under 10' you'd have no issue, I think. But always the better answer is to have an engine hoist. Or even better design and build a proper gantry setup. There are so many great uses for either/both. 2T engine hoist are great, and fairly cheap (particularly used). I use mine much more than I expected when buying it for small engine removal.

 

[tod osier]

I believe that, particularly woth a 40' span. But a simple 2x4 with carry 50-60lbs per linear foot on a 10' span. So if yours are 2x6, with some form of temporary post to get span under 10' you'd have no issue, I think. But always the better answer is to have an engine hoist. Or even better design and build a proper gantry setup. There are so many great uses for either/both. 2T engine hoist are great, and fairly cheap (particularly used). I use mine much more than I expected when buying it for small engine removal.

I've suffered with a crushed stone floor in the barn here, but I'm putting concrete in the WY building. SOOOOO, I'm looking to upgrade my stuff like that. I assume an engine hoist would be an ideal way to deal with an outboard in the 10-50 hp range? I've always used a hoist off a rafter.

 

[HenryHawthorne]

I've suffered with a crushed stone floor in the barn here, but I'm putting concrete in the WY building. SOOOOO, I'm looking to upgrade my stuff like that. I assume an engine hoist would be an ideal way to deal with an outboard in the 10-50 hp range? I've always used a hoist off a rafter.

Weight-wise, very easily. The one thing to check is that you can get the height you want to ensure you can lift it off your trailered boat. I found different limitations with different models when I was searching. With the extendable boom (and legs), I'd guess most would do it, but worth confirming. Think through how you'd strap the motor for lifting and make sure to include any length over the motor in your calculations. Once off, would be easy to roll the hoist and engine across (reasonably smooth) concrete to wherever you want to store the engine.

 

[Eric Patterson]

I've suffered with a crushed stone floor in the barn here, but I'm putting concrete in the WY building. SOOOOO, I'm looking to upgrade my stuff like that. I assume an engine hoist would be an ideal way to deal with an outboard in the 10-50 hp range? I've always used a hoist off a rafter.

Tod

I've lifted outboards off transoms many times with a cherry picker engine hoist. When you go that route you will want to get a lift ring for your outboard motor. Best way I know to remove/replace an outboard on a transom. Ebay or Amazon has them.