Bird dog training ban act

William Reinicke

William Reinicke

Well-known member
Supporter
Anyone see this? It was brought up on a fishing forum I visit every so often. Its a Greyhound protection act to prevent greyhounds from racing. Theres some literature in it though that would pertain to the use of live birds for bird dog training. Some key highlights in the act state:

“(a) In General.—It shall be unlawful—
“(1) for any person to knowingly engage in commercial greyhound racing, live lure training, or open field coursing events in which any greyhound is moved in interstate or foreign commerce;
“(2) to conduct commercial greyhound racing or racing meeting where any form of betting or wagering on the speed or ability of greyhounds occurs;

“(3) to conduct open field coursing or live lure training with the use of any bait that is not an inanimate object;

“(4) to engage in or facilitate simulcast betting or wagering on greyhound races in interstate or foreign commerce; and

“(5) for any person to knowingly sell, buy, possess, train, transport, deliver, or receive any greyhound for purposes of having the greyhound participate in commercial greyhound racing, live lure training, or open field coursing events.

One member there explained as below:

(3) Open Field Coursing.

That is the elimination of hunt testing and field trials. No more titling hunting dogs.

I have the entire bill printed.

When they refer to "Live-Lure", they are referencing the use of live birds in training.

There is a reason groups such as NAVHDA International, the AKC, the Sportsmen's Alliance, etc are all over this thing.

Again, it is represented as going after Greyhound racing. However, it goes deeper and is threatening hunting with dogs and using live birds for training.

The link posted there is right here:
https://sportsmensalliance.org/news/...w-hunting-ban/
 
I put my words in bold in original post just to clarify what was being said vs what I was saying. I dont think it would be a ban on hunting with dogs per se, but no longer would it be allowed the use of live birds for training. I havent played the AKC/HRC games for a decade or more. They used to haul in live mallard for every hunt test. With launchers and the way the tests were laid out, I dont think it would hinder those hunt tests all that much. Again, havent played in a long time, so I could be very wrong in this statement that im making right now. With upland dogs, I think this would be detrimental to the ability to train a dog effectively though. I know a kennel locally that raises Drathaars and they pen raise pheasant and chukar. This operation would be completely shut down. And I know they use some of those same birds to give residents the opportunity to hunt pheasant as there is no pheasant season here. Have to travel to other states to get a shot at wild pheasant, but nothing allowed here. That opportunity would be completely taken away as well.
 
First, it's not a huge leap from this to field work/training with bird dogs so I'd agree there is long term risk that passage of this could be a step towards similar bans for upland training - but I don't think this language would be applied to upland work (unless by a highly activist, un-studied DA and then judge - and we certainly have some of both).

The language "open field coursing" is pretty specific - coursing is what sight hounds do chasing and catching game. Our pointers, setters, labs, cockers, sprinters, GSPs, etc., etc. are not sight hounds (those include greyhounds, whippets, Afghans, etc.), nor do they engage in the sport of coursing.

I think what you're seeing is the sight hound crowd trying to get upland folks riled up and on their side. I don't see a direct connection based on the language you posted... but I certainly see it could be a step in a direction that could eventually serve as a basis for later trying to pass similar legislation for upland training methods (and, eventually, for hunting wild game).
 
William,
Thanks for the heads up. Just follow the link and make your position on this farm bill known. Unreal what they try to slide into these bills when nobody is looking. Unfortunately, I anticipate more legislation such as this. Many of the Socialist Democrats elected to various positions in the country have Muslim backgrounds. Dogs are considered an unclean animal in many parts of the world. If you don't think it can happen, Sharia courts are already a reality in Europe. RM
 
RM Anderson said:
William,
Thanks for the heads up. Just follow the link and make your position on this farm bill known. Unreal what they try to slide into these bills when nobody is looking. Unfortunately, I anticipate more legislation such as this. Many of the Socialist Democrats elected to various positions in the country have Muslim backgrounds. Dogs are considered an unclean animal in many parts of the world. If you don't think it can happen, Sharia courts are already a reality in Europe. RM
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I don't think this is a Muslim thing, RM, just a misinformed American thing. There is plenty of hunting in the Middle and Far East - in fact, I think much of our sight hound dogs originated from those areas (and where coursing is still practiced much more regularly than here). There is nothing, to my knowledge, in the Islamic faith or tradition that prohibits hunting with dogs.
 
I saw this last week. We have pheasant and quail farms here were you can buy live birds. There's several pay to play hunting farms in my area. Anyway when we had GSPs we always trained with live birds. Don't do that anymore but I just imagine it's still practiced here with trainers. It would be sad if this went through. Quit frankly I have no idea why this is even an issue that requires control.
 
HenryHawthorne said:
I don't think this is a Muslim thing, RM, just a misinformed American thing. There is plenty of hunting in the Middle and Far East - in fact, I think much of our sight hound dogs originated from those areas (and where coursing is still practiced much more regularly than here). There is nothing, to my knowledge, in the Islamic faith or tradition that prohibits hunting with dogs.
Click to expand...
Henry,
It's only crazy if it is not true...

ISLAM, DOGS, AND PERSONAL RIGHTS | TheDogPress https://share.google/E0BIcZMXT1UYGEto0
 
I don’t think this is the place for such comments. Period.
Be mindful that not everyone on this site is Christian and that there may actually be members of this family practicing other faiths.
 
And I know there are (gasp!) Democrats and Independents, including those who lean centrist or left, on this site as well.
 
HenryHawthorne said:
First, it's not a huge leap from this to field work/training with bird dogs so I'd agree there is long term risk that passage of this could be a step towards similar bans for upland training - but I don't think this language would be applied to upland work (unless by a highly activist, un-studied DA and then judge - and we certainly have some of both).

The language "open field coursing" is pretty specific - coursing is what sight hounds do chasing and catching game. Our pointers, setters, labs, cockers, sprinters, GSPs, etc., etc. are not sight hounds (those include greyhounds, whippets, Afghans, etc.), nor do they engage in the sport of coursing.

I think what you're seeing is the sight hound crowd trying to get upland folks riled up and on their side. I don't see a direct connection based on the language you posted... but I certainly see it could be a step in a direction that could eventually serve as a basis for later trying to pass similar legislation for upland training methods (and, eventually, for hunting wild game).
Click to expand...
Is there a legal definition of “open field coursing” that adequately excludes scent hound and bird dog breeds? As hunting dog people, are we ok with the incremental erosion of the sports that we collectively enjoy until the proverbial wolf is at our door?

If not, all it takes is an overzealous EO to pander to a political base in an election year.

What makes chasing hares wrong? The fact that they’re caught? My flusher/retriever has trapped plenty of training birds.

Edited to add- apparently there are only 2 greyhound tracks left in the country, both in West Virginia. Seems like the market is legislating greyhound racing out of existence. Does this really require action at the federal level? I think not. They have much bigger fish to fry, like passing a clean farm bill. There will be enough controversy in the entitlements without this.
 
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William or anyone else

I think you need to check this proposed law for validity. There are only two operating greyhound tracks in the US, both in VA. All the others closed primarily because casinos became legal. There has been a complete collapse of the industry. Proposing a law now is absurd. Forty years too late.

Edit: I looked it up and it is in fact a proposed law from Representative Zach Nunn (IA). Appears as though it is more aimed to prevent US involvement in international greyhound racing.

 
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Carl said:
I don’t think this is the place for such comments. Period.
Be mindful that not everyone on this site is Christian and that there may actually be members of this family practicing other faiths.
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Carl,
Not my intent and I apologize if it was taken that way. My mother in law hates dogs and is Lutheran. The point I was trying to make is the erosion of our rights by relatively small factions of our population who find the things we enjoy offensive. RM
 
Michael McCord1 said:
Is there a legal definition of “open field coursing” that adequately excludes scent hound and bird dog breeds? As hunting dog people, are we ok with the incremental erosion of the sports that we collectively enjoy until the proverbial wolf is at our door?

If not, all it takes is an overzealous EO to pander to a political base in an election year.

What makes chasing hares wrong? The fact that they’re caught? My flusher/retriever has trapped plenty of training birds.
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Precisely. The reason this is everybody's fight is because the antis always start with the smallest demographic that they can beat. Wasn't too long ago that folks who enjoyed hunting with hounds were sounding the alarm. It is just a matter of time before the anti's numbers grow and bird dogs become the target. My previous post could have used some editing before I let it fly but I was trying to illustrate a scenario that could take place and Carl rightfully called me out on that.
RM
 
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It appears to be tied to Iowa wanting to end greyhound race simulcasting at casinos.

www.radioiowa.com

Bill would ban greyhound race simulcasts at Iowa casinos - Radio Iowa

A bill that would ban simulcasts of greyhound races for gamblers at Iowa casinos has cleared initial review in the Iowa Senate and House. Iowa ended live greyhound racing in Dubuque in mid-2022 and there are only two greyhound tracks still operating in the U.S. Both are in West Virginia. Carey...
www.radioiowa.com www.radioiowa.com
 
What did I miss???? Sounds like this one almost fell off the rails lol. Im assuming some posts were edited after I came back from a lovely Easter with the family and babying a smoked pork butt for yesterdays dinner. No intention for this to become an issue and posts needing to be edited. If i did something wrong, then I apologize as well.

With that said, it seemed there was some fancy GSP trainer on the other forum who says lots of organizations were getting together to fight the act because it could hinder their organizations as well.

With that said, I skimmed through what Eric posted (thank you for finding this) and it does seem very confined to greyhounds. There certainly is some verbiage that I can see would get people on edge. I also dont think many understood the word Coursing and how that relates from breed to breed. I certainly did not until more started sharing their opinions on this and I went and looked it up. So possibly some miscommunication in people receiving the literature. Im guilty of it.

But I really just posted this because I found it interesting and figured I would get everyones thoughts and make everyone informed here. Didnt mean to spark anything and hope we can move on past whatever might of transpired. Hope everyone had a great easter, gave their hunting buddies a couple nibbles.... maybe a live jackrabbit, or two, to chase lol.
 
William

Back when I was involved with field trials and hunt tests there were no live birds. They were dead. Has the sport moved to using shackled birds instead of dead birds? I have my own story about competition dead birds and my thoughts on them but don't have the time to share it now. Maybe later. But let's just say I found some of the common practices to be mistreatment.
 
Michael McCord1 said:
Is there a legal definition of “open field coursing” that adequately excludes scent hound and bird dog breeds? As hunting dog people, are we ok with the incremental erosion of the sports that we collectively enjoy until the proverbial wolf is at our door?

If not, all it takes is an overzealous EO to pander to a political base in an election year.

What makes chasing hares wrong? The fact that they’re caught? My flusher/retriever has trapped plenty of training birds.

Edited to add- apparently there are only 2 greyhound tracks left in the country, both in West Virginia. Seems like the market is legislating greyhound racing out of existence. Does this really require action at the federal level? I think not. They have much bigger fish to fry, like passing a clean farm bill. There will be enough controversy in the entitlements without this.
Click to expand...
To your first question, probably not but I have no idea. My only point is that the drafters chose language that does have a common definition (and which is consistent with the other greyhound language) rather than broader, more encompassing terminology (like "hunting" or "field") - so it seems unlikely that the intent of this bill is to impact anything other than greyhounds and coursing. If this bill became law today, I'd have zero concerns about picking up birds tomorrow for training and doing so knowing the local green man will come check me.

As I said, though, I do see the risk downstream (incremental erosion) and will encourage my NC rep to review carefully and tighten the language or vote against it.

To the latter question, I don't have a problem with hare chasing... then again, I don't know that I would have had enough of a problem with cock-fighting or bear-baiting to insist on banning them. Our societal tastes change, and individually we have to live with that (or move). I do suspect at some point in this country hunting will be directly in the crosshairs.
 
Eric Patterson said:
William

Back when I was involved with field trials and hunt tests there were no live birds. They were dead. Has the sport moved to using shackled birds instead of dead birds? I have my own story about competition dead birds and my thoughts on them but don't have the time to share it now. Maybe later. But let's just say I found some of the common practices to be mistreatment.
Click to expand...
Pointing and flushing breed (upland) events only use live birds.

The HRC International Grand hunt test offers a live bird upland scenario as an option for the 5th evaluation.
 
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