KS Gov Vetos Proposed Non-resident Waterfowler Restrictions

Rick

I'm going to remember that quote because it is both ironic and true. I feel for the folks that have hunted Ark WMAs for many years. The changes are stark. Thomas commented to me just last night that his memories from going there as a kid are quite different than today's experience. Crowding is real and like you said a dry year really exacerbates it.

Something else that is stark in contrast to the way things used to be is the sheer volume of rice stubble acreage that is burned and dry over the winter. Ten years ago NE Ark was a giant patchwork of small lakes. Today there is a drastic reduction in water and what remains is always accompanied by pit blinds, meaning most water is hunted over where in the past there was plenty of places a duck could feed without gun pressure. We may have talked about this in the past, I don't recall, but this practice of scorching fields and leaving them dry has to be terrible for wintering ducks. It sure seems like duck wintering populations in Ark reached apogee a while back and are quickly declining with interest in geese picking up the slack. The difference there is goose hunting is mostly private and largely via guide services. Duck hunting is not what it used to be.
 
I hunted SW Kansas a few years when I lived in Arkansas. I hunted turkey and quail. I got a few of both but ducks? No ducks where I was at. Not sure what changed since I left but the hatred for out-if-staters seems to remain.
Now for the golden age for me was the late 60s thru the 70s here on the Mississippi River. We shot more ducks during the point system days. Hunting between two active refugees was key as the ducks shuttled between feeding and resting areas. Living in NW Arkansas proved not to be the place to live there but the 80s and 90s were good to me as I was one of 3 groups that hunted Beaver Lake in my area. I was there this past season and the parking areas were full of rigs. I never heard shot. Times do change. Although a youngster to some and and old man to others this coming season I'll see my 70th birthday. 60 years of duck hunting will continue my golden age.
 
Eric Patterson said:
Rick

I'm going to remember that quote because it is both ironic and true. I feel for the folks that have hunted Ark WMAs for many years. The changes are stark. Thomas commented to me just last night that his memories from going there as a kid are quite different than today's experience. Crowding is real and like you said a dry year really exacerbates it.

Something else that is stark in contrast to the way things used to be is the sheer volume of rice stubble acreage that is burned and dry over the winter. Ten years ago NE Ark was a giant patchwork of small lakes. Today there is a drastic reduction in water and what remains is always accompanied by pit blinds, meaning most water is hunted over where in the past there was plenty of places a duck could feed without gun pressure. We may have talked about this in the past, I don't recall, but this practice of scorching fields and leaving them dry has to be terrible for wintering ducks. It sure seems like duck wintering populations in Ark reached apogee a while back and are quickly declining with interest in geese picking up the slack. The difference there is goose hunting is mostly private and largely via guide services. Duck hunting is not what it used to be.
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More than the burned stubble, the number of fields that are disked, smoothed, and prepped for the spring by the end of October is disheartening. In the past five years, I've seen more brown dirt in the prime duck holding areas of Arkansas than ever before. And as you said, the fields that are left are the ones that are hunted.

Another thing that is happening is the conversion of ground to solar farms. I never would have thought it, but hundreds/thousands of acres of prime farmland has been converted to solar...no ducks there anymore.

When I look back at what it was when we hunted together on the Cache versus now, it's just a shame. If I look back to the late 1980's/early 1990's, it makes me want to cry.
 
I would like to chime in on this subject due to my experiences hunting with a group of younger gentlemen in Saskatchewan the last two years. Not sure how the subject was brought up but I inquired how many in the group belonged to Ducks Unlimited. Believe it or not not a single person save myself was a member. Now these guys weren't just occasional weekend warriors, but LIVED for waterfowl and not a single one thought it was important to give back. Low recruitment of the younger generation in conservation seems to be a real problem. Richard
 
RM

I'll have to ask my son about that. I know he is a member of Delta and DU, but I've never really thought about his peer's tendencies along these lines. Interesting.
 
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RM Anderson said:
I would like to chime in on this subject due to my experiences hunting with a group of younger gentlemen in Saskatchewan the last two years. Not sure how the subject was brought up but I inquired how many in the group belonged to Ducks Unlimited. Believe it or not not a single person save myself was a member. Now these guys weren't just occasional weekend warriors, but LIVED for waterfowl and not a single one thought it was important to give back. Low recruitment of the younger generation in conservation seems to be a real problem. Richard
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I blame R3 that is pushed by most of the hunting conservation organizations for the decline in quality of experience due to crowding we are seeing. The money you send to them is partially spent to recruit guys to hunt your spots.

Hunting conservation orgs, the industry, and state game departments are in an incestuous menage et trois that ultimately results in industry whoring out our shared resource for money. Hunting conservation orgs cry for R3 under the guise that hunting is dying out while holding their hand out to industry (and hunters). R3 is how the industry increases revenue - all those reactivated hunters need new waders, afterall... People blame social media for the flat-brimming influencers but it is industry supporting these pro-staffers that are burning spots and driving pressure beyond what the resource can handle.
 
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Tod

So that everyone knows, R3 is recruit, retain, and reactivate. I think differently on this matter, perhaps. Government policies and programs are huge drivers in funding for wildlife conservation including research, management, land preservation, etc.. The only way this happens is if there is a user-base constituency and it must be large enough to carry a voice to influence those who make laws, carve out conservation dollars in budgets, and push back when industry and agriculture move forward with little regard for conservation. I think without sufficient hunter numbers and their influence a lot of conservation efforts never happen. Sure, we'd all love to have the marsh all alone, but would the marsh still exist and if it did would anything live on it if hunters effectively vanish?

Seems to me like R3 is needed. Now if you see R3 as the conduit to hunting's version of the seven deadly sins, e.g., greed, pride, etc., I can see that side of your point. They exist in duck hunters and so yeah, R3 gets confounded with those bad attributes. But I have a hard time pinning things on R3. You know me well enough to know I feel there are plenty folks who whore out the resource for personal gain or don't conduct themselves with much honor in the field. I just think R3 shouldn't get a black eye for it. My 2 cents.
 
Eric Patterson said:
Tod

So that everyone knows, R3 is recruit, retain, and reactivate. I think differently on this matter, perhaps. Government policies and programs are huge drivers in funding for wildlife conservation including research, management, land preservation, etc.. The only way this happens is if there is a user-base constituency and it must be large enough to carry a voice to influence those who make laws, carve out conservation dollars in budgets, and push back when industry and agriculture move forward with little regard for conservation. I think without sufficient hunter numbers and their influence a lot of conservation efforts never happen. Sure, we'd all love to have the marsh all alone, but would the marsh still exist and if it did would anything live on it if hunters effectively vanish?

Seems to me like R3 is needed. Now if you see R3 as the conduit to hunting's version of the seven deadly sins, e.g., greed, pride, etc., I can see that side of your point. They exist in duck hunters and so yeah, R3 gets confounded with those bad attributes. But I have a hard time pinning things on R3. You know me well enough to know I feel there are plenty folks who whore out the resource for personal gain or don't conduct themselves with much honor in the field. I just think R3 shouldn't get a black eye for it. My 2 cents.
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R3 is a wonderful concept and I wish it worked the way it is sold, however, in many areas it is pushed when the resource can't take the pressure and that screws everyone over. The reason it is pushed is for the dollars it generates the states, hunting conservation orgs and the industry. Waterfowl hunting will take the same route as big game hunting has - opportunity will be limited (you often complain about this already, but it hasn't hit the waterfowling world yet like the big game world, not even close). While opportunity will be restricted, the cost to buy those licenses will also go up as demand increases. Who needs R3, not waterfowl hunting in many areas as evidenced by the crowding, certainly not western big game as evidenced by the fact that tag opportunities have dwindled not due to less tags, but due to more interest in limited tags. How about turkey hunting... turkey are in decline in many areas, yet NWTF is a huge R3 proponent. On and on. Less opportunity at greater cost.
 
Interesting thread. Nobody likes the competition of outsiders, but overall numbers do count and restricting out of staters should result in a loss of federal resources. If there is something to be thankful for as duck hunter in New Jersey its that basically everything tidal is public. Avoiding the crowd can be a matter of going a bit further into the marsh or simply hunting a weekday. My nephew is a dedicated hunter in his early twenties and traveled to North Dakota this past fall not to get likes or make videos, but just because he wanted to experience duck hunting in a different way and different part of the country.
 
tod osier said:
R3 is a wonderful concept and I wish it worked the way it is sold, however, in many areas it is pushed when the resource can't take the pressure and that screws everyone over. The reason it is pushed is for the dollars it generates the states, hunting conservation orgs and the industry. Waterfowl hunting will take the same route as big game hunting has - opportunity will be limited (you often complain about this already, but it hasn't hit the waterfowling world yet like the big game world, not even close). While opportunity will be restricted, the cost to buy those licenses will also go up as demand increases. Who needs R3, not waterfowl hunting in many areas as evidenced by the crowding, certainly not western big game as evidenced by the fact that tag opportunities have dwindled not due to less tags, but due to more interest in limited tags. How about turkey hunting... turkey are in decline in many areas, yet NWTF is a huge R3 proponent. On and on. Less opportunity at greater cost.
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You don't paint me a rosy picture. My attitude towards duck hunting is largely tied to freedoms for choosing when and where to hunt. Scouting and finding birds on my own figured quite large over my career. The urge to explore and find adventure in pursuit of game is of paramount importance and I never would have made it this many years without those freedoms. I may hunt quite a bit of private throughout the season these days (that could end at any minute as I'm a guest), but I am certain were the restrictions and conditions I face today present in the early portion of my career I would have dropped out. Perhaps the sport is irrevocably headed down a path of more regulations and restrictions. How that atmosphere could capture a young person's mind and make them a lifelong hunter escapes me. Feels like a recipe for a ton of turnover and a sport largely practiced by the inexperienced. If waterfowl hunting is on the same trajectory as big game with states heavy-handed in controlling access, I feel terrible for my son who loves chasing public ducks even when he has a private blind to crawl in.
 
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Our goal as sportsmen and women should be to give more than we take. If everyone who participates contributed to conservation programs such as Ducks Unlimited the problems we've mentioned with overcrowding would be solved. Wetland restoration takes money and involvement from hunters of all ages. Yes we have recruited new members to the hunting community but are they giving back to the resource we cherish or are they just taking?
Richard
 
RM Anderson said:
Our goal as sportsmen and women should be to give more than we take. If everyone who participates contributed to conservation programs such as Ducks Unlimited the problems we've mentioned with overcrowding would be solved. Wetland restoration takes money and involvement from hunters of all ages. Yes we have recruited new members to the hunting community but are they giving back to the resource we cherish or are they just taking?
Richard
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If you follow the stats on this stuff, more than 9 out of 10 hunters are usually just takers (and that is even for easy stuff like just going to meetings or joining a hunting conservation org), so by recruiting you end up with a lot of new "users" for each "giver" produced by 3R. The "we need new hunters to help the fight" is commonly thrown out there. Watch the statistics on hunter engagement when they come up, they are usually below 10 percent, often WAY below. If you double the hunter population (which would be horrible as far as access) you only get a few more percent in active participants.

I'm not saying tht DU doesn't do good work, but I'm pointing out that a portion of what you give them goes directly to decreasing the quality of your experience.
 
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Bob Reitmeyer said:
Interesting thread. Nobody likes the competition of outsiders, but overall numbers do count and restricting out of staters should result in a loss of federal resources. If there is something to be thankful for as duck hunter in New Jersey its that basically everything tidal is public. Avoiding the crowd can be a matter of going a bit further into the marsh or simply hunting a weekday. My nephew is a dedicated hunter in his early twenties and traveled to North Dakota this past fall not to get likes or make videos, but just because he wanted to experience duck hunting in a different way and different part of the country.
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Bob brought up North Dakota which my family used to travel to to hunt pheasant. Fantastic hunting, great access and alot of local revenue generated by other like minded non residents. About 30 years ago there was a push to limit out of state pressure. The legislature responded by limiting hunting to non-residents to two weekends of hunting. We never returned and so did alot of other out of state hunters. Flash forward to today; on the way back from the Pheasants Forever National Convention in Kansas City we drove through North Dakota and my wife had her Onyx hunting app running in the car. Virtually the whole state has been electronically posted no hunting. The guiding industry has locked up the entire state on private land. The folks from Kansas should be careful what they wish for. Richard
 
The guiding industry has locked up the entire state on private land.
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I can't say it enough times. Guiding should be illegal, hunting and fishing. I think it's just so detrimental to the future of hunting and fishing. Babysitting shooters (not hunters) who don't gain a sense of what the sport is about aside from the shooting. Locking up land and water so the hunter can't gain access. The websites with albums of hero shots. Wildlife should not be for sale.

Nice rant, I feel better! Better crack a brewski and sit in the lawn chair at dusk, to watch the wood ducks whistle by and the woodcock do their aerial dance. Then head inside and rig the salmon trolling rods and finish plans for this years' boat build, a rail skiff. All for free, without benefit of a guide. :)
 
SJ Fairbank said:
I can't say it enough times. Guiding should be illegal, hunting and fishing. I think it's just so detrimental to the future of hunting and fishing. Babysitting shooters (not hunters) who don't gain a sense of what the sport is about aside from the shooting. Locking up land and water so the hunter can't gain access. The websites with albums of hero shots. Wildlife should not be for sale.

Nice rant, I feel better! Better crack a brewski and sit in the lawn chair at dusk, to watch the wood ducks whistle by and the woodcock do their aerial dance. Then head inside and rig the salmon trolling rods and finish plans for this years' boat build, a rail skiff. All for free, without benefit of a guide. :)
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Agree 110%
 
I will play devils advocate, of sorts:
Takes two to tango.
Private landowners & farmers see $$ signs, take the money, and give the clubs and/or guides the leases that lock up the land.
Given the slim profit margins on farming, kind of hard to blame them.
And they do own the land. And in some cases, such as potholes, ponds. and lakes contained entirely within their property, they may also own the water as well (leaving navigable streams and waters out of this equation).
So they aren't selling wildlife, they are selling access to the habitat the wildlife use.

Now, if the landowners receive state or NRCS WRP/CRP funds for those same lands, that throws a wrinkle into the equation.

The debate between who is a "hunter" and who is not, and "sports" locking up land and waters is as old as waterfowling in this country.
Money and access conflicts are nothing new, just the scale of it.
 
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