Smallest natural retriever?

Rich
If you want to check out my cradentials I train by the Drakeshead meathod and if you are not sure what that is go onto their website www.drakeshead.co.uk and you will see john and sandra Halstead between them they have made so many champions to date it is unbeleivable and all without the use of any collers, this is a proven meathod, They had a dog called Drakeshead breeze, he won the british gundog championships 3 times running 1985-1986-1987 and still to this date his record as never been broken, I had his great granddaughter Drakeshead Viv, and she is the one I have just lost, After training her by this meathod and with love and understanding there is nothing that she would,nt do and I have been on some big upland pheasent shoots and I have seen dogs prancing around looking for the bird but as soon as meg came on the seen she had it, I also used her for waterfowling and she proved to be as good at that too, if there was a bird down she would find and retrieve it, I once sat on the forshore in some high grass with her next to me for 5 hours and in all that time I did,nt hear a beep out of her. That is my cradentials mate I train by this meathod and I get the results and I will had, I have never sent any of my dogs away to be trained, I have also had dogs from the sandringham strain over the years and that proved to be a good strain too, I found the drakeshead meathod very simler to the meathod I was brought up with from chidhood on training dogs.
What are your cradentials, lets hear where you are coming from mate. I also have a Question for you why is it that all you guys over there want british dogs if there surposed to not be up to it. Also I did,nt say I was a exspert Im just a normal dog trainer that gets the results he requires from the dogs he trains.

Take care and God Bless
Eddie and AmberBuilding that Bond.
Its all about
 
Well mate, if you need names, I'll be glad to pm them to you. My best friend and training partner over the last 14 years is a full time pro, with relations with several big time british kennels. I've seen the dogs, and I've seen the brit style training, and I see the difference. I've seen brit FTW that couldn't pass a seasoned land test (midlevel hunt test in hrc) or run a simple water blind. I've seen dogs with thousands of dollars in training, at most a basic gun dog. I was involved and rode and trained and handled some the first 500 point brit dog in hrc... and the second. Like I said, ive been around hundreds of labs...

Personally, my first dog was a back yard bred dog I trained with waterdog. Tons of ojt (on the job training), but broke, dropped birds, and I couldnt ever teach her to handle. I went back and ff'd and cc her at 5 years old, and she was a more effective dog after that than ever. My first real dog to train with a clue, is the youngest male 500 point dog in hrc, ended his career with 1500 hrc points inclding a string of 63 finished passes in a row (wudda been almost 90 but I passed a kidney stone on the line and pulled him). Personally, Ive trained 3 500 point dogs, 2 dogs that have passed the grand, 10 hrch dogs, 16 hr dogs, 6 upland hunter dogs. I've trained dogs with thousands of dollars of training 'brit style' and did more in 2 months than they had in 2 years... Ive trained rescued dogs, and abused dogs, and gave them the social and obedience and working skills they needed to be in good homes. Had a brit kennel want to buy me a dog truck and go full time for them, and that was 6 years ago, Im a lot better now. I've run or judged dogs in 13 different states and a Canadian provience. I was an officer (vice pres, then pres for 7 years) in what became one of the strongest hrc clubs in america for 13 years. I was chair of the most sucesful Grand in hrc history last spring. And Ive got 70 judging asigments with hrc. So yes, in this discussoin with you, I am the expert. Ive seen and done both ways, by your own admission you haven't. Gee, im only 40. When Im your age with unlimited time (did I mention I work a full time job an average of 53 hours a week) I can really get something done. I duck hunt in eastern arkansas and the mississipi delta, and have since prenatal times. Ive seen a duck killed, and a dog pick them up... So if my opinion is bullshit to ya mate, whos being close minded now?

Sorry folks for the slant of this... My new mate wanted to know where I came from, so I told him.

The broad brush of brit labs being pigish or calm, is just that, a broad brush. I know brit dog with all the fire of the hottest american fc breeding. Like any breeding, find the truth about the parents, not just titles. Espically not british titles, they're as much a lottery win as a accomplisment and have very little to do with water... travis
 
I am not sure what kind of spanial Gary March has, but if you search for his posts and see the conditions River works in, you won't doubt his ability or drive.
I reccommend you PM Gary.
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Gary has an American Water Spaniel , a female.


Another vote for the AWS
My AWS is 4 years old and still a puppy around the house. Greets everyone he sees and is great with other dogs. When we hunt, he is all business. It's like he is 2 different dogs.
He is collar conditioned but not force fetched. He will pick up spit if I tell him to. He came preloaded with upland talent. We worked on retrieving 80% and upland 20%.
He has AKC Spaniel Senior Hunter title and AKC Junior Retriever Title. He is all I could have possibly hoped for when I got him. www.littlebrownieskennel.com
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Gorgeous guy Ken. I just looked at their site--- and saw a ghost---Gunner could be Gus.
 
I don't really want to get in the middle of this but I have an opinion on this too.
I judge AKC hunt tests. and it is obvious that the over use of E-collars is prevalent with some trainers. You only need to see their dogs run to know they are heavy handed. I use an E-collar when training but only to get the dogs attention if he blows me off while handling and only enough juce to reach that goal. I believe it is a great tool when used properly. I bring my dog along slowly to build confidence and find no joy in working a dog that is not liking the work. I do believe the E-collar is responsible for qualifying dogs at tests that should NOT be used as breeding stock for hunters. The collar helps mask things that look good on paper but would never be acceptable in a hunting dog. I think it helps masks trainability when used heavily.
Just an opinion, John
 
john, thats a great opinion. And one you can have an effect on as a judge in a hunting dog program. Tests that are only about control tend to award the downtrodden. I belive hart is a part of marking, and of a hunting dog. My tests I set up generally have enough hart to weed out the downtrodden, without me having to judge them. Id rather do my thinking on set up day, and during game day be able to enjoy watching the dogs. Our testing programs are used to develop potientol breeding stock, so when someone puts more emphisis on the little things, instead of the hunting things, with their tests, you tend to award the dog you wouldnt want to hunt with. I'll always take 4wd over technical... travis
 
Travis, I like to put some MEAT in my tests be leinient, and let the dogs show what they have.
It is not common among judges and makes for interesting conversations. I often have to remind
judges these are HUNT tests!!
I also understand pro's who are under pressure to show progress, Thanks John
 
If I were looking for an overall smaller breed of retriever I would probably get a Toller. I had the privilege of judging a Toller working test a number of years ago. I was very impressed in what I saw and would consider getting one if I was looking for a smaller retriever.

Tom
 
American water spaniel. 40 lb dog retrieving a 28 lb swan.

View attachment Trax swan1-1.jpg">
 
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The e collar is just a training tool. It is not evil, nor does it train a dog. Trainers train dogs. Good trainers choose tools that help them train their dog. Just because you do, or don't, choose to use a specific tool or technique doesn't make you a better, or worse, dog trainer. Stating you don't like something you have never used is ignorant. Stating that a dog that performs in a manner that is displeasing to you because it was trained with a certain tool/technique is also ignorant.

Dogs can be abused without using an e collar or force fetch. I choose to use both. Getting an e collar out elicits the same response from dog as when he sees a shotgun. You would never interpret it as a negative response. If you choose not to use either that is your choice to make and I will never put you down for making it. I would never send my dog to a trainer for training. I would also never put someone down who does.

In the end, we all love our dogs and do what we think is best for them. That is our right and responsibility as dog owners.

Tom

PS If you look closely at my avatar Muddy is wearing an e-collar!
 
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I currently own (1) one from Game Creek & (1) one from Waterway.

If considering an AWS @ this time, these are the only (3) three I would recommend.

Game Creek
Pam and Steve Boyer
180 South 150 East
Driggs, ID 83422
208-313-0201 or 208-354-2571
psboyer@silverstar.com

Waterway's American Water Spaniels
Jon and Linda Hattrem
7375 Bayport Ave
Sparta, WI 54656
608-272-3908
hattrem@centurytel.net

Cow Creek Kennel
Steve and Tracey O’Neal
2324 Baum Road
Chesapeake, VA 23322
757-432-1043
cowcreekaws@gmail.com
www.cowcreekkennel.com

All (3) three of these kennels have & currently run their dogs in HRC/AKC & AWSC hunt tests.

They also show the same dogs in the ring & they all strive to stay within the breed standards.

If you'd like to see video of an AWS in the field, check out Pittboss's latest video, disc 3.

I had Dave McCracken w/Gumbo & Steve O'Neil with Pee Dee down for the show.

Great retrieves by the dogs!!!

http://www.americanwaterspanielclub.org/
 
Tom
If you read my second post you will find that I stated I dont train my dog with a coller I dont like any coller,( period ), Also my own view has not changed in respect of the E-collor, let me ask you a question, have you ever tried putting that e-coller around your own neck and giving yourelf a blast on the high voltage to see how it feels, dont forget your neck is a very sencertive area. Also here in the UK we dont use any form of collers for our training, we teach the dog to stop and come back by using the whisle.

Take care and God Bless
Eddie and Amber
Its all about Building that Bond.
 
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I have drunk enough after dog training, ive been hit with a collar, heeling stick, rou-sham-bouded, you name it. Kinda odd comparison (dogs arent people, even if they have souls), but I know how they feel. I don't know how pro plan tastes though, does that make me a bad person? I've tried to sniff my wifes butt on occasion and was greeted with a smack that'd make a brit dog trainer cringe. At that point I gave up trying to see what its like being a dog. Id trade it all for the abilty to lick myself in front of house guests tho. travis
 
mate, i had to google it but if you were packing more than 74 mm you would have that whole situation licked.......in so many terms.

justin
 
Eddie,

That's my whole point. You are commenting on something you know nothing about. You admitted you don't use any type of collar to train. I don't expect your view to change. I just think it is ignorant to comment on something you know nothing about.

There are lots of things my dog does that I won't do. When I lived in Florida I had a dog make retrieves with multiple cactus spines in his feet. I guarantee you I wouldn't take another step with just one in one of my feet. An e collar is put on a dogs' neck because it is sensitive. Would you really want it on the least sensitive part of the dog?

Ultimately, how one trains their own dog is up to them. In the US we are free to choose what methods and tools we want to. The dog owner decides what they want from their dog and what is best for their dog. Learning to force fetch and properly use an e collar were some the best things I did for my growth as a dog trainer and my dogs.

Tom
 
Tom

I dont think Im being ignorant about,the e-coller I have my views and anything that gives a shock to the dog I think is crule, it as already been stated that they can be over used and break a dog, but also in the right hands train a dog, I aggree with you that our two countrys train dogs differently .
Why I hate collers is, has a child I saw a dog get hooked up on a branch in the river and it drowned and it broke my heart and I swore after seeing that, that I would never have a coller on a dog and I have never had in all the years I have been training dogs.
 
I have drunk enough after dog training, ive been hit with a collar, heeling stick, rou-sham-bouded, you name it. Kinda odd comparison (dogs arent people, even if they have souls), but I know how they feel. I don't know how pro plan tastes though, does that make me a bad person? I've tried to sniff my wifes butt on occasion and was greeted with a smack that'd make a brit dog trainer cringe. At that point I gave up trying to see what its like being a dog. Id trade it all for the abilty to lick myself in front of house guests tho. travis
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Thanks, that made me laugh till I cried.
 
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