Westlake....fun, yet confusing

and I hope I'm not the only one giving feedback on the show.

-D

Nope, I was on the phone with Duane for probably 45 minutes Monday night, and he (and I hope the rest of the ODCCA) appreciates any and all constructive criticism. I agree with most of what Dave has said, especially about the replacement rule (but I got to disagree with Dave about that self-righting nonsense...but that is a whole other arguement...hehe).

I thought Cliff did a great job for the few years I attended the show, and in many respects, I thought Mark, Luke and Joe had some aspects going better. Most disheartening to me was the mood of melancholy and confusion throughout the audience on Sunday, however I hope and feel that there is a lot of momentum behind the show (and the Pool contest) and that the current team and whomever else may help them in the future can make it even better than it had been under Cliff's tenure.

Best
Chuck


Chuck
 
Most disheartening to me was the mood of melancholy and confusion throughout the audience

Chuck


Melancholy and confusion?? Sing it boys!:

"Ain't nothin like the blues
Bad news.....bad news....bad news

...... The blues is back-stabbin' ; smilin' in your face.
The blues will make Judas seem like a man of grace
Ain't nothin', ain't nothin', ain't nothin'... like the blues

.....The blues can bring on jealousy; rotten to the bone.
Envy & selfishnes have dramas of their own
Ain't nothin', ain't nothin', ain't nothin... like the blues"

Melanchily Confusion - Lady Blue

Sounds like a bunch of humorically challeged thinkers to me, Chuck ;-)
 
I'm a little confused by all this and too be honest it doesn't bother me much except for one thing. Why should decoy contests be different then most other types of judged competition?

I've never been to a decoy show so maybe that is how they are run but things such as cattle, hog, rabbit, vegetable, etc... shows bring back out 2nd if 1st in its class gets BOS. BOS should be the best overall not just the best of the winners. Don't call it BOS past the 1st one if you are picking only from the winners because then it isn't. Call it semantics but it's as simple as that. I'm not saying picking 3 best of the winners would be wrong I'm just saying if you call it BOS then you have to pull back in decoys behind the class winners. The right way is what I understand they did. Not sure why other shows call it BOS and don't pull back in 2nd place. If a 1st place goose isn't as good as someone elses 2nd place teal then it isn't their fault if it is the 2nd best there.

In the long run it doesn't matter and I think too much time is spent worrying about these thing.

Tim
 
Tim,

Almost every show now uses the replacement rule. The pool contest at Westlake opperated under the winners only concept in the past. They just conformed to what is being done just about everywhere else. I think a lot of the confusion was a result of people not reading the 2012 rules.
 
Tim,

Almost every show now uses the replacement rule. The pool contest at Westlake opperated under the winners only concept in the past. They just conformed to what is being done just about everywhere else. I think a lot of the confusion was a result of people not reading the 2012 rules.


A wise man said to me poolside on Sunday, that the Pool (contest) has historically not conformed to the 'norm' of other contests, and has at the same time enjoyed better success and growth than the other contests.
 
John, the rules have nothing to do with anyone's opinion of what should be done. The ODCCA determined the rules, and reading them wouldn't change a thing.

I'd gladly support filling the pool with all of the rigs, or all of the singles, and find the best 3 of each....Remove the decoys that cant cut it and the top 3 of each species gets 1,2,3 the top 3 divers get 1,2,3 and whatever is left in the pool at the end of the day gets 1,2,3 BOS it could be all geese, all confidence, all anything, but there would only be three of them and the crowd could easily follow along with the help of a good Emcee. We all know Ballard has the voice.

Anything wrong with that proposal? It sure beats things going in and out of the pool non stop. Do rigs first and follow with singles. at the end the carvers can jump in to get their decoys.

-D
 
Dave,

I guess what confuses me is that I'm not really sure what you think you are going accomplish with your thread.

I just reread your original post and you basically slammed the whole contest. It reads like you've called out the judges, Luke and Joe, and the whole ODCCA for that matter.

But what is even more confusing is that you state that you didn't even enter. So a non-participant is criticizing just about everything about the pool contests.

The judges for that contest were Glen McMurdo, Terry Desilets and Paul Busic. All of these guys hunt ducks and are considerably more experienced than you.

And another thing that confuses me is why did you re-post your original rant on Decoy Carving Forum? I read that today and other than your buddy George everyone was against you.

That post caused Luke's Dad Mark to feel like he needed to defend his son. What do you hope to accomplish with that?

Do you think that anyone is going to listen to you?

Whether you want to believe it or not you look really bad in this pursuit and you've seriously damaged yourself.

Dave at some point you are going to realize that you've offended a lot of people.

This whole things stinks of sour grapes. "My buddy didn't win and I don't like the way things were run so I'm going to make the biggest stink I can."
 
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Thank you John and well said and I agree. I saw this over at DCF as well lastnight and was going to respond but didn't and the more I read feel I need to for a couple reasons.


First the gentleman who made the hen can and who George feels the need to keep beating on is a good friend, a great guy who is the most humble human one could ever hope to meet. It was his second trip there and he expected to win nothing let alone BOS. I feel bad for him, a newcomer to the whole thing because of the attitudes of some. I knew something was amiss when there were no posts about BOS or who won when any other year pictures are up within the hour it seems and sure enough the grumblings are coming out. I truly hope he reads none of this on any of these forums to taint something he never expected in his entire life, something he will never do again probably and hopefully if he does read these things it won't stop him from enjoying the craft or even competing again. There is always talk about getting new people involved, talk of this kind does little but turn more away. He saw the problem with his decoy but only after all was said and done. The pictures of him out of the pool clearly show it to be fine at that time. He felt bad about the entire thing and knew there would female canine-ing going on. That bird was in the pool what 3 times? 3 times it was JUDGED the best in the pool, no trick photos, no smoke and mirrors, no knowing anybody judging or even running the event. The judges picked it, he didn't. Not one person on DCF that I saw gave him a congrats, not one single person. It is very clear how things work it seems and I feel bad for Ronnie, someone that any man would be honored to call a friend. Just a simple trim carpenter with a new hobby.


Second, the replacement judging in my mind picks the BEST birds so why not use it? Why shouldn't the best birds be chosen? What does BOS stand for then?


Thirdly, what is durability and how do you judge it? Birds taken care of like they are at Westlake or thrown on top of one another in a plastic sled on the water getting yanked over each and rolled around on each other. washing up against pilings under the pier and beating against one another? One could say well that's a working decoy and it should take it, ya know what? Do it with your own decoys and not someone elses, if decoys were treated at Westlake or any other show like what I saw on the flats nobody would hardly enter them. I know several that don't on the flats anymore just due to having to repaint, fix dents etc.


Fourth, judging is just that, humans making there decisions and choices and there is always going to be someone unhappy no matter what, therefore they look for change, new rules, excuses, etc. Field trials are the same way but a human again is left with judging, some like the results, some don't, some don't care at all, some want changes.


Final thought, this is suppose to be fun, relaxing, a hobby and something to keep us in tune with what we love at least that is how I view it. When I can't find fun in something, can only find the bad in it or look for nothing but the bad it's no longer fun, then I quit doing it. Life is suppose to be fun and I will keep it that way. I hope Ronnie continues to find it fun after all this. I told a friend just tonight I don't feel there is a active competitive carver out there who hasn't had a problem with a decoy at some point in their careers at some competition along the way and I can assure you that if that decoy won a ribbon that for some reason in their mind felt didn't deserve it that they gave the ribbon back and said choose someone else. My good friend doesn't need me to stick up for him, I choose to because he is a nobody in the decoy world and lord knows he won't get aknowledged otherwise. The judges picked it, not once but 3 times. [/QUOTE]
 
I've almost stopped laughing, so I guess i can reply to your nonsense.

I don't need to come on here and defend my credentials or my reputation. Those that know me well know what I'm made of, and know my capabilities as a hunter, carver, and most importantly a person.

It's seems your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired, and your assumptions are to blame for your confusions with my intentions, abilities, and understanding of the carving world.

Nothing I said was an attack on the competition, the Costilows, the ODCCA, or even the judges. If disagreeing with someone means that I called them out, then guilty as charged. Nothing I said was personal in nature. I made simple comments and criticisms based on what I saw at the show. I didn't get the memo that sharing my opinion of what I saw was wrong, nor did I expect the decoy world to be so darn thin skinned. I never said anything about Glenn, Terry, Paul, Luke, Mark, nor would I. Unlike you, I don't make things personal.

I posted my comments on DCF, b/c unlike you, I'm allowed there and have friends there. You may not know me or my name, but I've known the guys on this site and some on DCF for much longer than you've been getting kicked off of internet forums.

I can't help the fact that Mark felt the need to defend his son, I've read, and re read my original post and still can't see where I leveled an attack on Luke or Mark. I was critical of the judges, but no more critical than others have been of me when I judged, nor more critical than should be expected. There's no doubt that I touched a nerve with at least one of the judges, but so be it, he contacted me privately and other than this mention, that conversation will stay private.

You'd also be amazed at the folks that have contacted me privately to share their support of my main point in all of this. Again, those conversations will stay private and I'll sleep just fine tonight knowing that influential people who have earned their stripes, as well as the many who I am honored to call friends, stand behind me.

What I really want to know is what you think you've accomplished with your nonsensical and assumptive posts which have nothing to do with the main issue.

If you truly followed my argument and had the slightest skills of deduction or reading comprehension you'd notice that if it were up to me, Georges BWT rig would have stayed on the pool coping where it belonged as a second in class rig. That's right, my friend made a second class rig....lol. As I've said before, George is a big boy and is a veteran of the decoy world. Again, those that know me, George included, know that I'm not afraid to be honest with my friend, or anyone for that matter. It seems to me that I'm one of the few that is willing to criticize anything anymore. God forbid someones poor little feelings get hurt.

If you knew anything about George and the rest of the Runamuck decoy guys you'd know that we take more pride in winning an honorable mention ribbon than anything else. That's right, Runamuck green and proud!!

Again, I urge the folks reading this to go back and read my comments for what they are. Don't make assumptions, don't read between the lines, and realize that I simply wanted to share what I felt about what I saw in Ohio last weekend. I've been one of the young guys for a long time, and I hope Luke, as one of the young guys sees this whole thing as another opinion from another person. I don't know Luke, but I hope he's a little thicker skinned than the folks that have totally missed everything that my original post meant.

The only thing I've damaged here is the feelings of a bunch of thin skinned children who can't play with the big boys. Those that know me can see the smart ass smile on my face as I type, and probably have one on theirs as well. Those that don't know me can assume all day long and judge all they want, I wouldn't expect anything less.

I wrote my original post knowing that there would be a lot of heads shaking in agreement and hoping that the others might put their feelings aside for a minute to hear a little bit of truth as I see it.

Thanks again for your input,

-D
 
Dave,

First let me say this, I've seen examples of your work. I'll just leave it at that.

Second, I've heard from quite a few of the people who you've insulted privately, you've severely damaged yourself. Apparently you are the only person who doesn't realize how many people you've offended.

Thirdly, I heard you whining on Sunday morning so I know who you are. When you've done some growing up you'll regret your youthful immature actions.

Bridges burned can rarely be rebuilt.
 
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Boys, this scab has been picked over enough--Thank heavens we do not all share common philosophies or we would all be sitting around, singing kumbaya together. As long as there are individuals who are willing to flow in a different direction, we will NOT have to eat out of a common trough!
Runamuck was formed because of this. We even have great differences of opinion, BUT, we do know what a decoy is.
GO GREEN!!! And i do not refer here to the envirowhacko movement, either.
 
Thanks for looking out for my image John, I appreciate your input.

I also thank you for not openly criticizing my decoys. Lord knows that might do damage to you and burn bridges.

There's no doubt my decoys are SB's. Maybe it's a good thing I use them, I must be cleaning all of the dumb ducks and geese out of the gene pool. Heck, maybe USFWS has some sort of grant I can qualify for.

Sorry for whining on Sunday, I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings.

-D
 
Thanks for looking out for my image John, I appreciate your input.

I also thank you for not openly criticizing my decoys. Lord knows that might do damage to you and burn bridges.

There's no doubt my decoys are SB's. Maybe it's a good thing I use them, I must be cleaning all of the dumb ducks and geese out of the gene pool. Heck, maybe USFWS has some sort of grant I can qualify for.

Sorry for whining on Sunday, I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings.

-D


Dave,

Thanks for calling it as you see it.

Beyond the argument at hand, I was struck by the contrast in the avatars that you and John chose to display in your DHBP profile. One is a decoy on stand on a kitchen table and the other is of a DHBP travelling decoy in the field - I don’t think I need to see anything else to understand that there is a vast gulf in perspective there. Thanks for reminding me why I stand where I stand and why little things are important.

Who was it that ran that travelling decoy all those years back anyway?

T
 
Tod-

Thanks for the comments. I run past the blind where that picture was taken a number of times each year when hunting and fishing, and I can't help buy smile.

It's the stories told and the memories made with great people that make decoy carving and duck hunting such a great part of my life. I'll never forget the sweeping figure 8 approach that a lone can drake made that day right before my friend splashed it, and I'll definitely never forget the feeling I had when I saw the two bands on that gooses leg. The signatures that grace the bottom of "King" the Can represent the family that this website really is, and while I may not participate much here any more, I'll never forget the friendships made here.

I started the traveling decoy many years back, and I am tickled pink at the job that Chuck has done with the project. He is a great asset to this site and the duck hunting and carving world and I'm glad to call him a friend.

Just like many things in life, some get it and some don't. For those that don't I can only feel sorry and wish them the best.

-D
 
Your kidding right?

As one of only a handfull of volunteers who have dorn a pair of waders and trudged out, set up, moved and picked up decoys in all kinds of weather in the last 8 years at the Flats show. I take issue with some of your comments about the handling of the decoys. First carvers are "suppose" to set out their decoys themselfves, this doesn't always happen. The decoys are tossed into the water, to see if they self right, then the decoys are judged and either walked or placed in a sled and taken to shore and then haul 50 ft to the parking lot. If a decoy can't handle these "rigors" then it DOES NOT meet the rules of a gunning bird. Further if a decoy is to precious to be scratched or dented it DOES NOT meet the rules of a gunning bird. If a bird can't handle the wave action on the open bay it DOES NOT meet the rules of a gunning bird. Frankly, if people have not entered because of the handling its perfectly fine with me, because they DON"T meet the intended rules.

I don't dare post of picture of my past BOS decoy for fear of John telling me its crap, but that decoy hunted a full season before it was entered and had battle scars to prove it and treated way worse than the handling at the show. The balsa birds that I will send down this year have also had a full season of hunting and probably had more birds killed over them than many your so called decoys will ever think about in their lifetime. That to me that is the spirit of the gunning/working divisons they are decoys that are hunted. Your view is these birds should be handled with felt gloves, place in the water then taken out and set on their velvet pillow. Only to be taken out again for the next show, there are other divisions if thats how your decoy should be handled.

To me there are seperate divisons for reasons, I respect the talent level and artistry of them all, but to enter something in a divison that it does't meet to guidelines is innapropriate. When I used to race motorcross many years ago, we had a term for this "Sandbagger", people that had the talent to race in the expert class, but choose to race in the novice class, to reap the trophys and accolades.
 
I assure you there is no kidding involved and no joke.

I witnessed it first hand, from the pier. 2 sleds, 2 men, decoys piled on top one another and then slid across each other, weights banging into one another, treated like cord wood. As I was walking away I went back and told my friends who were shocked at the treatment of their birds to look under the pier at more of their birds and others getting washed up on the rocks, sand and pilings with the waves.

They all make good solid birds with what I feel is superior paint, Goldens for a working bird but that is not the point. When it becomes a durablilty contest so be it and let's see how tough they really are with all kinds of tests, until that time comes they are someones work, they worked hard at it and take pride in keeping them as nice as possible. If decoys were treated like that at Westlake, on top of one another in a pile and pulled out, pulled off, weights banging the pool contest would be lost....

To quote one of my friends that day "If they want to treat there own decoys like crap and don't care what they look like so be it, I don't and neither should they". He never entered again and neither did a few others. Do they just stack'em them up on each other and pull them out of the pile at worlds? Or any other show for that matter?

Durability is very important, treating someones elses work like your own is another matter........

I'll be at HDG again this year like always, but I haven't been to the pier since that day and neither have some other carvers.

End of discussion..........
 
Not quite the way it goes-dekes are wrapped, sleds are used to shuttle decoys to the water from the museum. They are taken care of--Set out by species-lines keep the dekes from washing ashore! Everyone enterig is aware that they must provide lines and weights--Normal depth of the water, except for one major SE gale around ten years ago, is hip deep-well, for ski anyway. Before putting back in sleds, they are rewrapped and laid inthe sled, not tossed.We do not treat our own stool that cavalierly! As far as rigs, the maker is asked to put his/her own stuff out, to best emulate how a small group of dekes would be set by them. Yep, we have waves, salt water, floating stuff, but when the dekes are put back, other than some sand on the bottoms, they are in the same shape as when they were brought from the tables.
It is your choice to or not to participate outdoors. The tank indoors is certainly a less stressful venue for folks who are timid about seeing their dekes in actual gunning water.
We have been doing the competition at the foot of the museum, simply because we thought that folks who made decoys for hunting would like something a bit better than a kiddie pool, cattle trough, or fiberglas tank. Choice is yours.

If you like, you can toss your own stuff out, even without lines and weights, which seem traditional for hunters, but if you prefer not, the tank may be your bailiwick.I have had some dents at the old northeast show, behind the museum. Know what? When all was over, they were touched up back at the shop and used in the fall!
Qualquire, hombre.
 
Not quite the way it goes-dekes are wrapped, sleds are used to shuttle decoys to the water from the museum. They are taken care of--Set out by species-lines keep the dekes from washing ashore! Everyone enterig is aware that they must provide lines and weights--Normal depth of the water, except for one major SE gale around ten years ago, is hip deep-well, for ski anyway. Before putting back in sleds, they are rewrapped and laid inthe sled, not tossed.We do not treat our own stool that cavalierly! As far as rigs, the maker is asked to put his/her own stuff out, to best emulate how a small group of dekes would be set by them. Yep, we have waves, salt water, floating stuff, but when the dekes are put back, other than some sand on the bottoms, they are in the same shape as when they were brought from the tables.
It is your choice to or not to participate outdoors. The tank indoors is certainly a less stressful venue for folks who are timid about seeing their dekes in actual gunning water.
We have been doing the competition at the foot of the museum, simply because we thought that folks who made decoys for hunting would like something a bit better than a kiddie pool, cattle trough, or fiberglas tank. Choice is yours.

If you like, you can toss your own stuff out, even without lines and weights, which seem traditional for hunters, but if you prefer not, the tank may be your bailiwick.I have had some dents at the old northeast show, behind the museum. Know what? When all was over, they were touched up back at the shop and used in the fall!
Qualquire, hombre.

Well it was what we saw that day and that was the way it went, your description sounds great but unfortunately to those of us who saw it all unfold it was much different. Decoys were taken out in 2 sleds yes, they were not wrapped, they were all on top of each other and no wrapping as you say existed. You clearly misunderstood what I said or tried to muddy the waters here. I didn't say decoys washed up on shore due to no anchor lines, the decoys taking a beating under the pier were waiting to go out or had already been out. They were set on shore before or after which is fine and clearly understandable, what is not acceptable is when the waves were washing them in, sucking them back, bouncing them off the pilings etc. It was seen by those on the pier trust me and was the talk for some time. Never did I see a decoy rewrapped before going back into the sled either, period.

The rigs I didn't see so cannot even comment as wasn't there for that.

They were not in the same shape when they came back in sir, please. Nobody that I know is timid as you say about there decoys in gunning water to me that is foolish. Mishandling is another story, if I borrow a fellow contractors work truck it is well taken care of, not scratched and dented brought back back and tell them well it's a work truck, get over it. When it's not yours you take better care of something then when you own it yourself, at least that is what I was taught.


Tank vs the flats? That is up to the person, I was excited to see them out on the flats for the first time as I thought that was a great idea and still do but things would have to change before I would put a bird out there and the others I know who stopped doing it I doubt would either. They loved the idea as well by the way.

Stuff happens to decoys at shows, everyone knows that and has probably experienced it at least once if doing it alot, that is a different story. Ronnie who won the pool this year had a wigeon bill get busted almost clean off at Worlds last year, the person who dropped it brought it to him and offered to help him fix it and Ronnie fixed it in time to get it back out and actually i believe won a ribbon with it so yes things do happen but taking care of someone elses work always seems to be paramount at these events from what I've seen and I feel it's how it should be. Being the gentleman Ronnie is he took it in stride, never got upset and just dealt with, the sign of a humble gentleman.


I think what some fail to realize when there holding these birds is some guys make only one or two a year, like myself because due to my business I just don't have time to do more. It may take them a year to do that bird or two, they may struggle badly with painting and it could take them forever to paint a bird. When it get's boogered up it is a big deal to them because it may have taken a year to make and fight to get the paint right, or the colors etc. It's heartbreaking to them and it's not easy to just take it to the shop and repaint it quickly, it doesn't work that way. Maybe the little normal guy shoudn't be involved, the guy who only produces one or two a year? Some of my friends birds that year were going to other people, that didn't happen until much later.

There is more to it all than just a working durable bird , for some it's a years worth of work and some need to remember that. I know were nobodys in the decoy world, but we all pay to enter, we all try, and we all want to see it grow, not shrink................................
 
can you specify the year? BTW, guys know that they can come down and unhook the lines and bag them right after they are back on shore. Yep, the area under the pilings is sand, so they do need a washing when they get back home--I as well as other folks who do that part of the show know that we need to bathe them once they are home,,kinda like when you gun over them--Funny thing is that at season's end, mine are scrubbed with comet and a brush, and only the beat marks from ice an sthe occasional stray pellet are retouched. Now, i will grant that things worse than handling have occurred, such as a gang of mice, who revelled in honing their teeth on some pre 1985 wiley cork mallards.. This occurred years ago-solution, a bit of grinding, some sanding, and repaint-
Over the years, i have tended to be a lot less anal about my rig than the guy who jut messes with a few annually, so if this is a problem, feel free to do the tank part of the comp, rather than float on the flats. Better yet, do your boots, and help out..We can always use more hands, and some of the problems you perceive could be certainly ameliorated. One thing we can tell you is nothing on the flats has ever had a problem with paint hemmoragging from the surface. Soemtimes, the teachers omit the information regarding the media they go with, and that, my friend , is a problem.
Again, bring boots a s help out--We can always use bodies, whether checking in, recording, or milling about in the water. Now, are you willing to get involved? See me either saturday or sunday--Look for the f 150 with cap and runamuck tag. Most folks can steer you to me.
 
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