Leave it to Kalifornia!

Steve and Ed are right. I am waiting for the day that they say no more lead shot. The numbers are impressive. Ask a trap or skeet shooter how much he buys in a year. Just look at where the lead comes from in Yukon Mike's post on a field trip he took with Mac. With prices the way they are now a steel target load does not look that expensive. Just want to know how you keep steel shot from taking out your eye after bouncing off the skeet house window door?
Where we fish here, 10 to 20 oz. bank sinkers and diamond jigs are the norm. I have made hundreds. The Race has got to be paved with them after 70 years of hard fishing. Gona make some guy rich mining them under water when we are looking for more lead to make the batteries for hybrid F 350's- some solution!
Parks, if they just write it so we shoot the cats with no lead, x-bullets and let the condors eat the piles of racks we can save the state millions and be the primary force behind the saving of the old bird, not the hot hippie wifes, or the [font=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Veterinarians/State Biologists[/font]. Wait, I prob. should not use' "Old Bird," in this post.
No Knee Jerk needed here, just a few creative folks to solve a few details. Lead is one of the coolest metals, I make all kinds of stuff with it. I would hate to not be allowed to mold it, but it is one more tool in the Anti's bag of tricks to make our way of life more work.
 
The majority of the lead that is used for bullets sinkers etc comes from recycling batteries. What are they going to do with all the lead from lead/acid batteries if they arent using it for other things? Lead used for bullets, shot and sinkers is a very small percentage of what is out there. The majority of the lead is reused over and over again. Cars are the most recyclable thing that man makes with 95% of the car being recycled. I have to agree with others this is just a way for the anti's to get there way.
 
a highly toxic metal out of the food chain and save a native bird species and, "JUST LIKE THAT", the REAL reason is to take our guns away......what a hoot....maybe its the NRA crowd that we should really be looking at. Let a Democrat fart and you get a letter from them stating that "this is just another way of them sneaking in through the back door to steal our guns--send us money, lots of it, and we'll make sure that you can keep your guns".....

If there's a mantra on the Liberal side of "we want your guns", there is one of equal magnitude on the Right Wing side and with things related to guns it ALWAYS the NRA that shouts...."its a ploy, they want our guns"....

Like Freud said...."sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"....and in cases like this I'm inclined to believe that taking Dave's acknowledged 30% of the unwanted pet problem out of the equation would be a GREAT thing, and that an attempt to save the Condor doesn't equate to the impending loss of my gun ownership rights....

Course I also don't beleive that there really were WMD's in Iraq that Bush is keeping secret either so call me goofy.....

Steve
 
I told you there were WMDs in Iraq, and you don't believe me. Steve!! Calm down and have a Latte :-)

Hitch
 
Oh, and they can kiss my ass before anyone cuts my dog's nuts off. The only thing they hump is each other anyway. Besides, the real problem is the loose cats, but the tree huggers won't do anything about that!! They refuse to believe those poor innocent kitties kill anything, let alone billions of birds every year. That's just ridiculous

Hitch
 
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Well, I might as well be the first Kalifonian to weigh in on these topics.

1. The spay bill is a nice first attempt to fix a BIG problem. Our state has a lot of derilict people in it that allow their pets to run wild and breed out of control. We are therefore forced to kill tens of thousands of unwanted pets each year at a substantial cost. This is wrong on both a financial and a moral basis. I think that the bill as written goes too far because it makes it very difficult and expensive to be a breeder. But I wouldn't be opposed to some type of a bill that required a permit to have a non nuetered dog as long as the law was enforced. Anyone have a better idea or do you think it's a good idea to just pay people to run around town picking up dogs all day and killing them?

2. The ban on lead rifle bullets. Don't expect that to happen any time soon. There are hundreds if not thousands of new laws proposed every year and most of them never see the light of day. However, there is a good chance that lead bullets will be outlawed in the Condor's range. Lead is a HUGE problem in the Condor recovery program. The problem is not that the condor finds the odd crippled animal, the problem is that the condors feed on gun piles and there are LOTS of bullets in gut piles. There are also a lot of lead bullets in dead squirrels and dead jackrabbits. I don't remember the exact figures but a condor study showed that something like 75% of the wild condor's had some degree of lead poisoning and something like 30% were near the leathal level. Lead was cited as a major limiting factor in the condor's recovery program. I think that if we care about returning condors to the wild, lead must be removed from their environment. If we don't care, lets just shoot them all now and quit wasting money trying to save them.

3. I don't understand the bio-degradable part but I am fine with the lead sinker ban. But remember, neither part of this has passed. They are just ideas put out there by some whacko.

Also, before you cast too many stones and think that you northerners are exempt from such stupidity, I offer the following examples of idiots in Oregon. And these are already laws:
[*]It is illegal to whisper "dirty" things in your lover's ear during sex.
[*]Ice cream may not be eaten on Sundays.
[*]One may not bathe without wearing "suitable clothing," i.e., that which covers one's body from neck to knee.
[*]Canned corn is not to be used as bait for fishing.
[*]It is illegal to show movies or attend a car race on Sundays. (Eugene)
[*]Juggling is strictly prohibited without a license. (Hood River)
[*]It's illegal to walk down a sidewalk and knock a snakes head off with your cane. (Klamath River)
[*]Ministers are forbidden from eating garlic or onions before delivering a sermon. (Marion)
[*]One may not box with a kangaroo. (Myrtle Creek)
[*]It's against the law for a wedding ceremony to be performed at a skating rink. (Portland)
[*]People may not whistle underwater. (Portland)
[*]Women may not wrestle in Salem. (Salem)
[*]It is against the law for animals to have sex in the city limits. (Stanfield)
[*]It is illegal to predict the future. (Yamhill)

 
Where did good ol DUBYA stash that stuff John....Planet X?

And John you've got your activist groups too heavily entwined.....TREEHUGGERS aren't the ones that don't want the unwanted cats killed. Those people that you like to condemn as TREE HUGGERS are the same people that are responsible for saving you're beloved Cypress Swamps and Mangroves...there's some crossover I'm sure between members but the charters of "TREE HUGGER" groups don't include protection of feral cats....in fact they dislike them as much as you do because they inpact the very environments they want to protect....

Steve
 
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That's classified info. I'de hafta kill ya if I told ya :-) Planet X, I never believed a word; I told you that, didn't I. Now John Titor... watch out when that guy comes back!! If SheBill gets elected, I'll be buyin all the lead I can find and MREs buddy!!!

Hitch
 
Ok, my first question is: How (& why would) any bird swallow any lead "sinker" bigger than split shot?? And I don't have a problem with a ban on lead when it comes to that... But my 8 or 10 ounce diamond bar only affects the mortality of the lingcod or rockfish that gets in its way...

Next: The condors aren't dying from lead poisoning. They're dying 'cause they're too g****mn stupid for the species to continue. Talk about fiscally irresponsible... Millions of dollars pumped into a species that has to have its offspring taken from the nest and put under the knife. Why? 'Cause the parents are too stupid/genetically shallow and feed them whatever they find, and they have a penchant for bottle caps. Put 'em in the zoo and spend the money on something worthwhile...

And along the lines of Kevin's post, if you think only crazy/stupid things like that happen in Kalifornia, you're either ignorant or stupid... The first requires education, the second.... Well, you can't fix stupid!
 
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I reminisce back to my stance on the Jim Zumbo thing....hmmmm....maybe you've changed your tune on the NRA crowd now Steve? Seems a bit contradictory.

As far as the fishing sinkers goes...there are definately places that have been outlined here among others where lead is a major problem. The fact remains that bird shot is still much easier for birds to ingest. From what I've read(several years ago), larger shot like fishing sinkers are rarely consumed by birds(supposedly the mute swans in England were the exception). And, one 3 shot volley of typical 12 gauge waterfowl loads outweighs what I would typically lose in one full day of guiding(point being that waterfowl hunters were definately filling the marshes with lead at one time). If you extrapolate, obvious there is shitload of lead being deposited in the water by fisherman because typically there are more fisherman than hunters. But, in most streams I fish I think you'd wait a lifetime for any birds species to accidentally ingest shot that has been left by fisherman. That can't be said everywhere. I happen to hate the non-toxic weight alternatives for several reasons but of course would adapt to it if required by law. I just think that in many cases, it would be a silly law that accomplishes nothing other than good no-tox sales. In cases where the dissolved lead is actually measurable in the water...now that's a serious issue.

I think the non-toxic waterfowl loads available are much better than lead in many cases. I am very happy with the options including the non-toxic dove loads out there which I even use for ducks occasionally. Plus, if you check the price of a good box of lead pheasant loads you'll see that lead prices are not much cheaper than steel. Point being, perhaps other alternative fishing weights would hit the market that closely match the properties of virgin lead and don't cost an arm and a leg.

As far as bullets in gut piles...I guess if it saves on condor then they can justify it.(?) That said, I'd be willing to bet that it rarely if ever happened and that other forms of mortality will likely compensate for any insane "no lead bullet" laws. I'm mean seriously, I've never seen a bullet or slug get lodged in the guts..it either passes through or stops on a bone or more than likely in muscle. Or course, having not shot any elk I can't speak for larger guts. Sounds like a scam. How about this, require hunters to remove the bullet from the guts(the first guy to actually find one should get a free ice cream cone or something), or here's an idea...bury the guts! Or bag them in a heavy duty contractor bag and bring them to the California DNR and let them sort it out. Or sprinkle some "anti-condor" powder on the pile that causes them to sneeze(and probably fly into a giant wind generator and get killed).

Spaying dogs....it seems excessive to me but the fact is that I'd rather see Fido get fixed than some pile of dead puppies in box in the ditch or a pack of currs barking all night. Where I deer hunt there are 13 dogs within a mile and they all bark all the damn time. It makes more sense to me to fine people for dogs that bark all day and all night because then you'd have half the moron dog owners out there getting rid of their dogs. Hand them a ticket and a "Euthanization Free Pass". All apologies to "good dogs" that have barking problems.
 
so to make sure you saw this I'll put it here....

And John you've got your activist groups too heavily entwined.....TREEHUGGERS aren't the ones that don't want the unwanted cats killed. Those people that you like to condemn as TREE HUGGERS are the same people that are responsible for saving you're beloved Cypress Swamps and Mangroves...there's some crossover I'm sure between members but the charters of "TREE HUGGER" groups don't include protection of feral cats....in fact they dislike them as much as you do because they inpact the very environments they want to protect....

And then I'll add to it.....

FERAL dogs might not be a problem where you are but they are a huge problem in some areas and are just as destructive as cats are....I'm with you that no one is going to cut Mike but no one said there wasn't a way to avoid that.....it wasn't an "every animal must be cut" proposal.....

I know you didn't believe Planet X.....I juxtaposed the two above because the proof of Island X is just as concrete as it is for WMD's.....I'll apolologize when proof is released as to how George saved the World by keeping thatt information secret at the expense of his Presidential Legacy, (I just hope I'm still alive fifty years from now to see it)....

Steve
 
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None of it'll matter much when Hillbillery is elected President. Probably should of blamed the kitty thing on some other left wing, wide eyed liberal, commy group, I'll admit that. But anyway, as far as the tree huggers go here, they sure haven't done much good. The administrators of the EELs programs here; all they seem to manage is to buy up is some worthless buffer areas, probably mostly surrounding their own property, and no hunting on EELs land either. Nothing can stop the development machine here. Thank God the housing market sucks again here or they'd be paving Island X by now. All I care about any more is getting my marsh opened back up this fall, which BTW may very well happen. Oh and the few tree huggers that do show up at the RAC meetings, somehow seem to always be on our side when it comes to water management, or the lack of. I'll be nice and admit that too.

Boy this sure got you spun up though, gotta love that :-)

Hitch
 
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that included the NRA...I've slept since then so you may well be right.....for what its worth I don't "dislike" the NRA but I don't "like" them either. Based on that feeling there are things they do that I agree with and things they do that I vehemently disagree with so its not a surprise to me that I might side with them on one issue while slamming them on another...make sense?

Do some thinking Jay, and others. Condors eat carrion....what else eats carrion? And to limit things lets just look at what eats carrion in the Condor range. Lets see, Golden Eagles, Bald Eagles, Crows, Turkey Vultures, Black Vultures, Ravens, Raccoons, Foxes, Ringtails, Coati's, all the Buteos, Jays, Chickadee's, etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum.....which means that if the Condors are picking up lead, (and for the record the CALIFORNIA DEPT OF FISH AND GAME-or whatever their legal name is-agrees that that is where the lead is coming from and they certainly aren't "anti-hunting, bunny/tree huggers that want our guns"), then so are all of those other "carrion eaters".....so go ahead and hate the slow, stupid old Condor while sticking the collective head in the ground while mumbling "who cares if they all die cause theyre too dumb to live"....or in the short version...."it ain't just about Condors"....

Now do a little reading about where the lead is coming from.....its not from the "slug lodged in the gut pile" as you stated. The problem is from bullet fragmentation. Remember Dave's accolades about the .17 exploding into a bajillion pieces and therefore being the perfect little bullet cause it won't richochet? Well where do you think those bullet fragments went? And don't say "yeah, but that just those little highly frangible bullets", cause all bullets shed lead in the wound channel, (a google search for that will provide multiple pictures of x-rays showing shed lead fragments that would remain in any gut pile covering various large calibers).

And remember its not just the "gut piles" from big game its all the other "carrion" that recreational varmint hunters leave laying in the field after a day of laying waste to the local prairie dog population, or saving the world from the ever present threat of Jackrabbits eating us into a famine, every one of them laced with bullet fragments that will be eaten by one scavenger or another, not just Condors....

And while I'm on a rant....sinkers.....You like Loons Jay? Care to guess whats the leading cause of death in LOONS on the East Coast? YEP, sinkers.....30% of all Loon mortality is caused by lead sinker ingestion....and thats just the recovered ones that they get to test....now don't ask me why the stupid bastards would ever pick up a sinker thinking its food but they do, and if Loons do then other "birds" do as well I'm sure.....shall we just shrug and say "weel if they're as stupid as Condors then they deserve to die cause I don't think my (2) split shot have a thing to do with it"?

I've been just a guilty in the past in saying "yeah but that wouldn't happen in this situation" and then Tod Osier gave me a sweet little bitch slap this Spring that proved, at least to me, that nothing that you can imagine can't happen when I sent him a Whitewing Scoter for his class to dissect. Care to guess what was in his proventriculum? With no wound channel? YEP....a BB......now I've always said that over salt water, with Sea Ducks, that lead poisioning couldn't be a problem....but then here comes this WW Scoter with a piece of shot in his crop that he ATE while feeding in no less than 15 feet of water on a cobbled bottom......all of which leads me to believe that "lead's lead" and that it doesn't matter how infinistesimal you think the amount is that you introduce to the water, or land, or carrion, at some point something will have the opportunity to eat it.....and that, to me, means that when we can stop introducing it to the environment by the simple expedient of not using it that we should.....

Oh and "burying gut piles"....good idea but when you can't get em to pack out their beer cans do you really think you'll get em to bury, or carry out, 30 lbs of guts?

Steve
 
I beleive its you that has taken a discussion of lead to the inevitable "Right Wing Conspiracy Theory" conclusion of "if Hillary wins then it won't matter"......

I guess we're nothing if not predictable....

So the Tree Huggers are doing some good there......even if they are only saving the buffers aroudn there own homes, (alledged not proven), thats better than being lost to development, even if hunting isn't allowed.....and since they are "on your side" at the meetings they attend then thats positive as well.....thanks for the admission on that....

Neat to hear that the marsh "might" be open this season....we'll be able to "debate" face to face on the woe's of the World and the impending doom that looms as "Planet H" approaches at breakneck speed.

Steve
 
Man, nothing like a hot non-duck related topic to get the forum lively.

Just for the record, IMO:
No. 1 is once again one of those things we have to do to protect people (and cats & dogs) from our population's own stupidity and lack of responsibility. The gene pool needs more chlorene.'

Can't see #2 & #3 being technically or economically feasible in the near future.
 
that included the NRA...I've slept since then so you may well be right.....for what its worth I don't "dislike" the NRA but I don't "like" them either. Based on that feeling there are things they do that I agree with and things they do that I vehemently disagree with so its not a surprise to me that I might side with them on one issue while slamming them on another...make sense? Answer: Yep

Do some thinking Jay, and others. Condors eat carrion....what else eats carrion? And to limit things lets just look at what eats carrion in the Condor range. Lets see, Golden Eagles, Bald Eagles, Crows, Turkey Vultures, Black Vultures, Ravens, Raccoons, Foxes, Ringtails, Coati's, all the Buteos, Jays, Chickadee's, etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum.....which means that if the Condors are picking up lead, (and for the record the CALIFORNIA DEPT OF FISH AND GAME-or whatever their legal name is-agrees that that is where the lead is coming from and they certainly aren't "anti-hunting, bunny/tree huggers that want our guns"), then so are all of those other "carrion eaters".....so go ahead and hate the slow, stupid old Condor while sticking the collective head in the ground while mumbling "who cares if they all die cause theyre too dumb to live"....or in the short version...."it ain't just about Condors".... Answer: If the science confirms it then by all means it should be adressed in a serious way. My normal degree of skepticism led me to believe that it was a total BS deal. That's based on nothing more than intuition...I have read nothing about it. I never said I hated the condor...I happen to think they're one of the most majestic birds on the planet eventhough they have a nutsack for a head and they're apparently stupid as hell.

Now do a little reading about where the lead is coming from.....its not from the "slug lodged in the gut pile" as you stated. The problem is from bullet fragmentation. Remember Dave's accolades about the .17 exploding into a bajillion pieces and therefore being the perfect little bullet cause it won't richochet? Well where do you think those bullet fragments went? And don't say "yeah, but that just those little highly frangible bullets", cause all bullets shed lead in the wound channel, (a google search for that will provide multiple pictures of x-rays showing shed lead fragments that would remain in any gut pile covering various large calibers). Answer: With nary any rifle experience other than the UP and dogs down here I have never noticed any degree of fragmentation that alarmed me. Being the pimple...no the blackhead on the ass of the rifle world certainly doesn't qualify me to make any judgements. If fragmentation is indeed the issue then by all means make it a law to use solids and coat bond a copper etc jacket to them. Seems like a great plan in the condor range.

And remember its not just the "gut piles" from big game its all the other "carrion" that recreational varmint hunters leave laying in the field after a day of laying waste to the local prairie dog population, or saving the world from the ever present threat of Jackrabbits eating us into a famine, every one of them laced with bullet fragments that will be eaten by one scavenger or another, not just Condors.... Answer: You have me there.

And while I'm on a rant....sinkers.....You like Loons Jay? Care to guess whats the leading cause of death in LOONS on the East Coast? YEP, sinkers.....30% of all Loon mortality is caused by lead sinker ingestion....and thats just the recovered ones that they get to test....now don't ask me why the stupid bastards would ever pick up a sinker thinking its food but they do, and if Loons do then other "birds" do as well I'm sure.....shall we just shrug and say "weel if they're as stupid as Condors then they deserve to die cause I don't think my (2) split shot have a thing to do with it"? Answer: Thank you for reminding me about the loons-now that you mention it I did read that somewhere. I do like loons and I'm happy to report that the loon population is thriving in this part of the world. Once again, in certain areas or environments there is not doubt that it's a serious problem. I just don't think that it is in many places but.......

I've been just a guilty in the past in saying "yeah but that wouldn't happen in this situation" and then Tod Osier gave me a sweet little bitch slap this Spring that proved, at least to me, that nothing that you can imagine can't happen when I sent him a Whitewing Scoter for his class to dissect. Care to guess what was in his proventriculum? With no wound channel? YEP....a BB......now I've always said that over salt water, with Sea Ducks, that lead poisioning couldn't be a problem....but then here comes this WW Scoter with a piece of shot in his crop that he ATE while feeding in no less than 15 feet of water on a cobbled bottom......all of which leads me to believe that "lead's lead" and that it doesn't matter how infinistesimal you think the amount is that you introduce to the water, or land, or carrion, at some point something will have the opportunity to eat it.....and that, to me, means that when we can stop introducing it to the environment by the simple expedient of not using it that we should..... Answer: .....then again obvious even in very unlikely places it does happen. That doesn't surprise me so much frankly because it was a BB and I'm sure when they dig around in the cobble they ingest all kinds of smaller stuff that has adhered to the mollusks shell OR maybe it's intentional.

Oh and "burying gut piles"....good idea but when you can't get em to pack out their beer cans do you really think you'll get em to bury, or carry out, 30 lbs of guts? Answer: Nope, I sure don't.

Steve
Click to expand...
 
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Steve,

You will note that the only reference to lead I made was my purchase of "as much as possible" if the "speaker of all dialects" becomes President. You will get no argument from me on lead.

And Carl… the implied idea we should be neutering stupid people who litter our forests and allow their "pets" to roam and procreate. Although that would seem to make more sense than neutering the dogs, I doubt it will happen. It sounds a little too much like something Hitler (Ted Kennedy's dad's buddy) might do.

Hitch
 
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to see that it was, in fact, a response...finally got it figured out....

Here's what I see as the "problem" with "limiting" bans to "specific" areas.....remember back when steel shot first became required and it was "hot spot" oriented? At the time I was hunting the Merritt Island National Wildlife Refuge which WAS a "hot spot" and then on closed days there I was hunting 10 miles away on the St. John's which WASN'T a hotspot......as onerous as switching to steel was the problem was compounded by the fact that I was allowed to continue to shoot it one place and not in the other.....

Allow people to "choose" between something they are doing already, and have done forever, and something new and they'll fight the change, blame "infractions" on "I forgot which zone I was in", and come up with the list of usual suspects that the reason for the change isn't for the obvious, GOOD reason, but the insidious one of "its not about the Condor's, or the Loons, or the quality of the water, etc., its about wanting our guns".....

So, to me, if lead is a bad thing "somewhere" it stands to reason its a bad thing anywhere. Sure windows and towers and wind farms and high tension lines also kill birds, (and likely even more than lead), but how is that an excuse for hunters, and fisherman, not eliminating the lead they contribute? None of us can do anything about powerlines, or wind farms, or the new structure that gets erected in a migration corridor, but not eliminating the lead that we contribute to the environment that we claim to adore just because there are "other" sources of mortality shouldn't be a consideration.

Cancer won't be solved by ONE giant HOLY SHIT event...it will be cured by a myriad of small successes. To me eliminating the lead that I contribute to the environment is like contributing to cancer research...It won't be what is responsible for the cure but it sure is better than waiting for someone else to fix the problem that I'm contributing to....

Seriously for an eye opener, and like you I'm not a rifle shooter, do a google search on bullet fragmentation in wound channels. I'm betting that, like me, you'll be stunned at home much lead an expanding bullet sheds and also just how far some of those fragments are from the actual wound channel.....shocked the heck out of this non-rifleman who thought like you that just retrieving the spent slug would solve the problem.

Steve
 
I guess that my feeling is that in the trout streams that I've fished lead ingestion would be rare. That's based on the fact that I rarely see any waterfowl at all in areas where the lead would be deposited(with the possible exception of merganser)and with the shifting bottom substrate I just don't see it being a problem...at least measurable compared to poison runoff or some other insidious thing. All that said and I must say your argument regarding the total ban of lead is compelling. It would certainly simplify things.

But dangit man, I sure like my size 3/0 and 7 lead Water Gremlins!

The WMD's are in the Bekaa Valley...buried in semi-trailers.
 
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