Leave it to Kalifornia!

"None of us can do anything about powerlines, or wind farms, or the new structure that gets erected in a migration corridor"


I can..........and do.


The folks that think we should just let the condor, or any other endangered species for that matter, just die off as a way to "save money" or "put the money to a good use" should really rethink their position. In many cases the presence of an endangered species is the only thing keeping "progress" from destroying the ecosystems we enjoy as outdoorsmen. Personally I think thats worth the millions that are being spent
 
Last edited:
Lose the Condor and who stops the development in the San Bernadino Mtn's....certainly not the NRA. Nope lose the protection that that area enjoys because of the Condor and all that those mtn's would be famous for is homes, and the wildfires that burn them to the ground periodically......

My apologies for the slight, "none of us can do anything" statement...in the future I'll amend that with "EXCEPT GREGG"......

Jay, I hear yah but you have to think past "waterfowl".....waterfowl aren't the only thing that gets their food from the rivers that you use lead in.....they may be the ones you care the most about, or think the most about, but they aren't the only ones.....what about the Eagles, or wading birds, or Mink, Otters, etc. etc. that make a living, albeit indirectly, from there? If you don't think beyond the obvious then its really easy to fall back on that...."the stated reason for the action isn't the real reason for the action" conspiracy theory conclusion......

Steve
 
Last edited:
Yea,South Carolina had a one handgun a month law for years ,in deference to Wash DC bitching about people buying guns
in nearby states and selling them in DC,(once the crime capital of the country),Now South Carolina reversed the law.Leave it to Massachutes to go one better
and include all types of guns.I lived on the Cape for many years,can't stand the politics.Can not understand why people still vote for Teddy.LOL
 
I guess I'm trying to imagine another species ingesting lead sinkers in the Muskegon River besides waterfowl and I'm not coming up with any. Kingfishers wouldn't, mink wouldn't I suspect but then again a raccoon or a mink could mistake a sinker for a clam and at least chew on it(or suck on it like a Jolly Rancher), the eagles and ospreys I guess would do it if they consumed fish or waterfowl that were carrying them. I mean, I am totally open to being proven wrong here. Otters may pick one up especially if it had bait on it...they'd probably be the most likely to do so I would think. Turtles maybe.

There was that one time on the South Platte in Colorado that I saw giant rainbows trying to eat the tiny sinker on my nymph rig(Dinsmore Tin)so I put one right in front of a size 22 brassie and sure enough a 10lb leviathan ate it and promptly broke my tippet on the hook "lift" which nearly caused me to shit my waders. Maybe fish eat sinkers too but I cannot say I ever found one in the guts though I don't kill that many fish.

Obviously keeping it out of the food chain is a good idea.

What's scary is when you see a bay on St Clair like Mitchell's or the Muscamoots and imagine tonnage of lead being on the bottom to this day. When the walleye fisherman snags a jig and breaks off it seems so insignificant when it's laying on a bed of lead that was deposited over decades by waterfowl hunters.
 
when I talk about stuff like Mink and Otters and Eagles.....I may be dead wrong here but I can't imagine that the very large Loon mortality comes from them accidentally picking up a sinker off the bottom...After all they are sight feeder and don't randomly pick up mointionless stuff like ducks will while grubbing the bottom.....if thats correct then the Loons must be getting it from fish that have eaten a sinker, (makes more sense that a little bottom feeder would suck in something laying on the bottom than it being the Loon that did it), or maybe a trout dragging around that snapped tippet with a couple of split shot attached to it....

Makes sense to me....not as big a chance that it will happen but I can't imagine it being just an accident that that many Loons just accidentally ingest inert lead laying on the bottom.....

I hear you on the incredible volumes of lead shot that must still be accessible to feeding waterfowl in some areas.....we still have a die off here in Washington every Winter involving Swans and lead. The area where it happens was a heavily used hunting area in the lead heyday and it would appear that hunters long dead are still killing birds.....the interesting thing is that its almost all Swans that are dying. The "thought" is that because they are so much bigger, feed in deeper water, grub so much deeper and eat so much more that they come into contact with lead with greater frequency than ducks.....

Steve
 
Steve,

My understanding with the loons is that they are picking it up as crop grit as are the ducks.

T
 
I'm glad you figured it out. Hopefully you figured out the tongue-in-cheek as well? But the feral cat thing seems much worse than the lead thing as far as birds killed per year, I would think. If this weren't the case, there would be no ducks left at all. Does that make sense to you? And the idea to force everyone to spay or neuter their dogs’ just sounds really overkill to me. But overkill is how socialists react... they take everyone’s rights away to enact a perceived solution to an issue.

And while were on that subject (socialism);

Since you spoke so very passionately about the lead issue (with no apparent sense of humor, I might add), I will also say that many in California, and elsewhere for that matter, would like to see the place rid of bullets, and they could care less about getting rid of the lead if it wasn't so easy to make more bullets from lead, whether it be a little sinker, or a big strap weight. I would question their motivation, wouldn't you? You imply my being so lock-step with the so-called conservatives that I can not see their true intentions. Well, possibly you suffer the same condition from an opposing perspective, not to imply you are a socialist.
 
I don't equate the Feral Cat to the Lead issue....they both affect me but in different ways.....as a dedicated duck hunter the lead issue bothers me a great deal and the affect that it has, or might have, on other "game" species becomes more and more bothersome to me as I think about it. (Think about how assinine it is that you and I can shoot Snipe with lead in your favorite duck hunting spot when we would never dream of shooting ducks there with the same lead shells--are lead #8's labled "for Snipe shooting only -not to be eaten by waterfowl"? I don't think so. And you know it happens, because you've seen the guys that shoot ducks in the a.m. with steel and then come back to the exact marsh in the afternoon with lead to shoot Snipe.

The feral cat thing affects me because of its impact on non-game species and because of what the local government spends to track down, round up, and kill, (or place for adoption), animals that exist only becuase the owner is too sorry to control his pet(s). Sadly you can't expect all citizens to act responsibly and the only answer becomes to legislate their behaviour. If requiring that the stupid ass down the street either neuters his cat, or dog, or pen it up, (which he has already proven that he won't do), so that "I" don't have to deal with the unwanted offspring killing the deer in my yard, (or the birds on my feeders), makes me a "Socialist" to the Right Wingers then so be it....I'm a Socialist.....

I'd love to think that the average person would say to himself that neutering a pet is a responsibility that he accepts but the number of discarded puppies that I see floating in the sloughs around here, or cats that end up using my bird feeders as a buffet, indicates that they won't. If they won't assume that responsibility what should we do? Shrug our shoulders and continue to pour money down that hole so that we don't encroach on his "rights"? Apparantely that seems to be the answer to those that think that Local governments should take no action beyond pissing good money after bad for animal control and lawsuits that should have never occured.


There is NO DOUBT IN MY MIND that there are people in California, and elsewhere, that would like to see every bullet, regradless of compostition, outlawed....in this case though, getting the lead out to stop lead poisioning in Raptors, (specifically Condors), I just don't see that.....my response was not knee jerk opposition to Dave. I checked the guys out that are sponsering the bill. The people that support it come from both the Conservation and the Consumption side of the issue and based on that I say that claiming that the "REAL" intent of the action is to "steal our guns" is ludicrous. That opinion was formulated after looking up the "facts" that support that lead poisioning, from RIFLE BULLETS, is a well documented problem, and that documentation is "vetted" by none other than the Califonia Game Commission, as well as other HUNTING groups. So while I agree that there are those that would use wildlife issues to further gun control this becomes one that I don't see the connection and as such I find it impossible to not state, "BULLSHIT", when it is so obvious, at least to me, that the attempt to legislate "non-lead" is completely divorced from those that want to take away my "right to bear arms"........

I'll state it again.....if that makes me a "Socialist" then I accept that appealation gladly.....

Steve
 
Last edited:
Wadding in to the shallow water, no one on this board who knows any person dealing with high lead levels in their own body or kids would want to screw around with the stuff. As I stated, it is cool to work and can solve a large number of problems when working with mechanical stuff. That said, it is nasty if you get a high exposure just like asbestos. As proven with the waterfowl laws, the problems can be overcome if we have to change. Just have to get creative and look for different ways to make what we do work. I think it effects the bullet shooters a lot more than the duck hunters because finding an answer for cast lead bullets will not be easy. Many sweet old guns that have a lot of history just should not be fed solid copper bullets.

But I don't believe for one second that groups that want hunting and fishing to go away don't have lead on their high list of priorities to put one more nail in the coffin, just like trapping or crippling for example. And that is just plain lookin at the table from the other side, not some Chris Cox mumbo jumbo.

Any thinking hunter who loves the wild that we find our game in has to admit that many areas that we get to use were protected by a diverse group of folks who may not have all been hunters. Trust me, plenty of developers love to hunt and they use their gains to buy into private areas that you and I can't touch, after they pave the old honey hole with houses and shopping malls.

On this note I can not believe that this board has not taken up the recent Supreem Court ruling striking down the Army Core's juristiction on water courses that are too small for navigation by boat traffic. This will open up many new wetland areas to change that can not be good for duck hunting. Just the same way a bunch of guys pilled on an OPTIONAL extra land stamp program put to this board in the recent past. Without hard work in the name of wetland protection we will be out of business by matriculation if we are not careful.
 
changes to "ephemeral" wetlands once upon a time...the concensus at that time from the RIGHT THINKING people was that if DUBYAH supported it, and he did, that it had to be right, cause he is, or at least then was, a GOD...and God's are never wrong.....

A bit tongue in cheek there but thats the gisit of the way that thread went....this from an accussed, and admitted, Socialist, of course....

Steve
 
This would be a good time to remind everybody to call or email their senators and congressman about the Farm Bill...WRP needs to remain intact. Likely it won't because God knows we need more "cairn" for the ethanol!!!!!!

I saw a little wedge yesterday...must've been less than a quarter acre and the guy(one of the farmers that lets me hunt)took the time to run this very strange diagonal pattern with the planter. The cairn(read, missing tooth and Purdue cap)was coming up real nice. To pick it he'll have to run his combine diagonally and the head will extend nearly all the way across the road when he makes his final/single pass.

That is the wave of the future....cairn and ethanol...YESSIR! What a crock!!!! It used to be this worthless little weed patch that held a rooster or two. I have a good mind to go spray $10 worth of glyphosate on it...but that'd be mean.

That said from a W voter and supporter.
 
I don't agree with "bullshit". I think this is a slippery slope as Bob suggests, if not by design, by default, and those that want lead banned for "the wrong reasons" will sit back and let those with "good intentions" just let it happen. I think targeted bans are still better, but they need to make more sense, for instance the example you cite. That seems easy to fix with the "right people". And just as it is unrealistic to ban all guns, as some want to do, it would be impossible to ban all lead. Lead shot is used for many reasons in industry. We use it at work by the ton to make small precision weights; thousands of them of all sizes. Guys like Swartley and I will always have a supply of the finest lead shot in whatever size we desire.

And you can pass all the laws you want, but can they be enforced? There will be a black market in lead if you ban it. What lead there is would be scrounged and stashed. Lead flashing would be horded. It's just not practical.

And as far as Socialism goes, it has never worked. It has always spawned mob rule, or dictators, or both. I love the Republic our founding fathers designed. I'm just fed up with all those that run it now. But Remember what Pogo said........"I HAVE SEEN THE ENEMY....AND IT IS US".....

I'm ready to see them all to Go Steve... including Bush. How bout that!!
 
JeeWhizz fellas. It all comes down to this, its NOT the governments job to TELL ME what I can or cannot shoot from MY guns. Nor to TELL me how to handle MY pets.


DON'T TREAD ON ME!!!!!!!!

How far will this all go.......the slope is indeed getting VERY slippery.
 
Hitch...you're not saying that you want to sit in the TeePee and watch the sweetgrass smoke turn into a buffalo running across the ceiling are you? Surely you don't want to let the women grow their armpit and leg hair long...(the next thing you know they'll be trilling "lululululululu" whether they're happy or PO'd).

You just mean a fresh start right....a new bunch in the hot seat.

What's really hurting this country and the world is hatred. The islamic world hates us, the left wing hates Bush vehemently. Go to a jam band concert right now and ask a bunch of pot smoking libs how they feel about Bush....I guarantee that hatred isn't just reserved for us war mongers. I hate it.
 
I never weighed in this issue. I am a dog lover. I kill lots of feral cats. I let one go this year though...I snuck up on it as it slept on a round bale. But alas, it was wearing a collar.
 
just the lead that we, as hunters and fishermen introduce into the environment...Big difference in the two....

And show me one, just one, great idea, or law, or thought, that can't be perverted by some one who wants to attach their own agenda to that idea and get a free ride.....I certainly can't think of one.....nature of the beast to piggyback on something that helps you attain a goal....that doesn't mean, at least to me, that we shouldn't act just because something else "might" happen that wasn't intended in the first place.....

I figure I'm winning here.....last time we had one of these you called me a tutu wearing left wing liberal panty waist....this time I'm just a Socialist...I'm moving up in the food chain....

Steve
 
Last edited:
that you drive on whichever side of the road you want to? At any speed? In any impairded state that you deem "reasonable"? Hunt anytime of the year, with any weapon, kill anything, in any quantities that you want to, anywhere you want to? Marry the sister? Shoot the neighbors windows out when they get too loud?

Or do you just draw the line at the Goverment telling you what to do on projectiles from your gun and the status of sexual organs of Dogs and Cats?

Steve
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top