Saw this a few months back on the hunt quietly IG account....

RM Anderson said:
I don't know Tod, compare it to Black Lives Matter or the Humane Society. It seems everybody's beef is with the bingo and gun raffles that the volunteer local chapters put on but then complain when they hire an obviously very capable CEO to run a very successful multinational charitable organization. You can't have it both ways.
RM
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I'll take neither way.
 
HenryHawthorne said:
I disagree with the hammering on guides.

First, I totally get what has made people feel thay way - and share the distaste and even vitriol for the influencer/guides. Would love to find a way to eliminate/ban them.

I've used guides in Currituck Sound and surrounding areas for decades. Unless you're a member of one of the six-figure clubs or one of the old blind license holders (or lucky enough to win the lotto on one as they come available), it's the only way to hunt that area. Pretty much every possible blind location is taken and you can't hunt within xxx yards of a blind.

The guides I've used are commercial fishermen, crabbers, ferry boat captains, etc. - all watermen who make their living in those waters, and who guide in the winter because they love the area and waterfowling. Some have been long-term guides for one of the clubs, and have rights to lease and guide in certain club blinds when not being used. These clubs have hundreds (some thousands) of acres and blinds, 90% of which are unused at any given time. At any rate, these guides aren't minting money - they're supplementing family income and doing something they love in the same way we all do when hunting. They're (generally) great story-tellers about the region and its history, and they're very conservation-oriented.

I use a guide when I hunt dove in S Texas. He (and his team) are locals with other jobs (farmers, LEOs, etc.) thay work their tails off working with farmers to make land and habitat available and productive. They are extremely protective of their resources, spreading pressure, etc. because they know if something gets shot out their clients in following weeks will be screwed (and won't come back). They've helped a lot of "smaller" farmers stay in business with hunting income thay might have otherwise gone to big business.

I use guides from time to time for fishing outside of my home area, too.

Personally, I love using guides in other areas because I can learn from them about the area, its history, and the specific history of game in the area.

Again, there are definitely bad egg guides, newbies trying to make a buck by guiding, and influencer/abuser types. But the overwhelming number of guides I've used are no different than most of us, love the game/sport as we do, and enjoy being out with likeminded sportsmen and sharing their resources and expertise. They charge as a way of offsetting some of the costs of their passions, and maybe helping make ends meet, and they arent taking advantage of people or abusing resources.
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The only thing I dont like about guides is their ability to gobble up the opportunity. elk tags, all bought out by guides. Why, because its easy for the landowner to offload all their tags to one company and they manage who comes in and hunts. But its what has caused such an outrageous price for those tags for guys like me who may not draw a hunt that year.

What i really dont like is what has gone on in W texas. Guides have, completely gobbled up everything in that area. How? Well they go from landowner to landowner and get them under contract to lease their land. Same mindset, let us hunt your property this year for x amount of dollars and we will give you a fee on top of that for every hunter we run when we hunt your land. Sometimes the fields get hunted, sometimes they dont, but the landowner always get a little something with the opportunity for a little more if the fields get hunted that year. All depends on what birds do that year. They also have them under contract saying if they let anyone else hunt their land then the landowner poses contract breech and possible penalties. Even the game warden out there told me its become impossible for the little guy to hunt anywhere in the area because they have gobbled up literally everything. Last time I got rolled up on by green jeans in W texas, I was scouting. We Bs'd for awhile and then I asked, well do you want to see my license and stuff? He said he wasnt worried about it because I wasnt going to be hunting anywhere in the area for fowl. He was that sure about it and left. So if you want to hunt geese in W texas, better contact a guide because theres no chance you are going to free lance W texas for waterfowl anymore. FINALLY farmers are starting to not sign these contracts. You have farmer Joe with 3000 geese on their field but the guide is running 10 guns on farmer bobs land because it has 6000k geese. Farmer Joe is wondering where the heck these guys are to help push geese off his field that are destroying his crop and cant let other hunters onto it because they are under contract. Farmers are finally starting to say hell with the guides and letting guys come out and hunt. its still not worth your time to try because its impossible to figure out if guides have which property or signed with which landowner. Becomes beyond frustrating and if you dont have someone local in the area keeping tabs on it, its just not worth your time.

Texas also screwed up and made snow geese 5/day limit and got rid of conservation season. No idea what thats about. So the few times I went, we watched thousands land in the decoys after we shot our 5. So dumb.

Im waiting for the onx feature where you can click on someones property and it gives us the guide name of who leased it that year. If Onx wants to take it next level, that would be beyond helpful lol.
 
HenryHawthorne said:
I disagree with the hammering on guides.

First, I totally get what has made people feel thay way - and share the distaste and even vitriol for the influencer/guides. Would love to find a way to eliminate/ban them.

I've used guides in Currituck Sound and surrounding areas for decades. Unless you're a member of one of the six-figure clubs or one of the old blind license holders (or lucky enough to win the lotto on one as they come available), it's the only way to hunt that area. Pretty much every possible blind location is taken and you can't hunt within xxx yards of a blind.

The guides I've used are commercial fishermen, crabbers, ferry boat captains, etc. - all watermen who make their living in those waters, and who guide in the winter because they love the area and waterfowling. Some have been long-term guides for one of the clubs, and have rights to lease and guide in certain club blinds when not being used. These clubs have hundreds (some thousands) of acres and blinds, 90% of which are unused at any given time. At any rate, these guides aren't minting money - they're supplementing family income and doing something they love in the same way we all do when hunting. They're (generally) great story-tellers about the region and its history, and they're very conservation-oriented.

I use a guide when I hunt dove in S Texas. He (and his team) are locals with other jobs (farmers, LEOs, etc.) thay work their tails off working with farmers to make land and habitat available and productive. They are extremely protective of their resources, spreading pressure, etc. because they know if something gets shot out their clients in following weeks will be screwed (and won't come back). They've helped a lot of "smaller" farmers stay in business with hunting income thay might have otherwise gone to big business.

I use guides from time to time for fishing outside of my home area, too.

Personally, I love using guides in other areas because I can learn from them about the area, its history, and the specific history of game in the area.

Again, there are definitely bad egg guides, newbies trying to make a buck by guiding, and influencer/abuser types. But the overwhelming number of guides I've used are no different than most of us, love the game/sport as we do, and enjoy being out with likeminded sportsmen and sharing their resources and expertise. They charge as a way of offsetting some of the costs of their passions, and maybe helping make ends meet, and they arent taking advantage of people or abusing resources.
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We aren't talking about bad egg guides, we are talking about the guide industry having a disproportionate impact on a shared resource. Many folks do better when they are with a guide because guides are professionals trained to extract resources. They direct effort into the the best areas and have an impact greater than even elite level hunters or fishermen because they are out day after day hitting the best spots. They take more from the resource, they should pay more - that is my argument.
 
tod osier said:
We aren't talking about bad egg guides, we are talking about the guide industry having a disproportionate impact on a shared resource. Many folks do better when they are with a guide because guides are professionals trained to extract resources. They direct effort into the the best areas and have an impact greater than even elite level hunters or fishermen because they are out day after day hitting the best spots. They take more from the resource, they should pay more - that is my argument.
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That's where I'm disagreeing and suggesting the guides you reference probably are bad eggs. In my experience, the traditional guides have a positive impact - habitat development and enhancement, resource protection, spreading pressure, helping hunters learn new areas, encouraging farmers and landowners to manage for wildlife, etc.

I've seen plenty of videos posted by the types of guides you mention, I've just never met one (thankfully). I do hear good guides complain about them.
 
Eric Patterson said:
Tod & SJ

Would my hunting improve if guides were banned? Around here there are no guide services to speak of but I do think the average joe hunter who lives in a waterfowl rich area would have far better hunting opportunity were guide services not around. But that would also eliminate someone from experiencing a hunt they cannot do for themselves due to age, location, available resources, etc. So I tend to fall in the camp of let's not outlaw it but let's make them pay for the resource and keep a close eye on their actions. What about the others that profit from it? Pittman Robertson gets the gun and ammo companies. What about the decoy and gear companies? Probably them too. Of course a lot of the guiding goes on in Canada so we have zero say in that and I think there has been a considerable increase in guiding activities/harvest there.
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Tough to say your hunting would improve, but certain species have been pounded by guides. Snow geese, who cares from a population standpoint? Access to fields is a different story.

Scoters and eiders are many guides go-to because they are easy and limits can be had in a morning, or less. Look at some guiding websites, they talk about limits in half day hunts and offer two trips per day. The sea ducks were numerous years ago when few people hunted them, once the mighty TDB style boat came on the scene the population has trended down ever since. Yes, they have nesting issues and influenza outbreaks, but the number of guides taking shooters is ridiculous. Don't get me going on the cripples, just watch videos. So yes, IMO the DIY hunter would have a better day if there were no guides.

I think your success rate for puddle ducks without guides would vary depending on location and type of hunting. Fields, it's primarily an access issue. Water, too many variables but I guess the simple math of more shooting and more birds killed tips to the positive with no guides.

I'm Ok with fees for the paid guide, and a broader Pittman Robertson umbrella with the understanding that the cost will be passed on to the consumer.
 
HenryHawthorne said:
That's where I'm disagreeing and suggesting the guides you reference probably are bad eggs. In my experience, the traditional guides have a positive impact - habitat development and enhancement, resource protection, spreading pressure, helping hunters learn new areas, encouraging farmers and landowners to manage for wildlife, etc.

I've seen plenty of videos posted by the types of guides you mention, I've just never met one (thankfully). I do hear good guides complain about them.
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Henry, I can't say that the guides I know are bad guys. I agree they have a wealth of knowledge, but much of it is at the expense of the resource. You mentioned commercial fishing, I'm not a fan of that either. Just because you buy a boat and pay a grand for a license shouldn't entitle you to 2,000 pounds of fish while I'm limited to five fish. WTF? And helping hunters learn new areas is definitely not what guides do, if there's one thing common to all it's a fierce loathing of a sport who comes back to the guides "private" spot. Which pisses me off as well when I take guys. But I'm not taking anything, even dinner afterward. They simply never get invited again.
 
SJ Fairbank said:
Henry, I can't say that the guides I know are bad guys. I agree they have a wealth of knowledge, but much of it is at the expense of the resource. You mentioned commercial fishing, I'm not a fan of that either. Just because you buy a boat and pay a grand for a license shouldn't entitle you to 2,000 pounds of fish while I'm limited to five fish. WTF? And helping hunters learn new areas is definitely not what guides do, if there's one thing common to all it's a fierce loathing of a sport who comes back to the guides "private" spot. Which pisses me off as well when I take guys. But I'm not taking anything, even dinner afterward. They simply never get invited again.
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Brothers from a different mother.
 
SJ Fairbank said:
Henry, I can't say that the guides I know are bad guys. I agree they have a wealth of knowledge, but much of it is at the expense of the resource. You mentioned commercial fishing, I'm not a fan of that either. Just because you buy a boat and pay a grand for a license shouldn't entitle you to 2,000 pounds of fish while I'm limited to five fish. WTF? And helping hunters learn new areas is definitely not what guides do, if there's one thing common to all it's a fierce loathing of a sport who comes back to the guides "private" spot. Which pisses me off as well when I take guys. But I'm not taking anything, even dinner afterward. They simply never get invited again.
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I have my problems with the commercial fishing industry, too - and NC has probably done the worst job of any state in protecting its fisheries, so I'm particularly frustrated. But those guys and gals need to make a living and feed their families, and there are a lot of seafood eaters around here. The sad thing here is, if the state would just keep out-of-state commercial fishers out there'd be plenty for local commercial and recreational fishermen - but because our regs are so slack compared to every other east coast state, we have boats and crews from up and down the coast (and, indeed, the Gulf, from time to time) crabbing and fishing. Our recreational flounder season last year was 2 days, as an indicator of how bad our fisheries have been hit. What used to be phenomenal (world class) blues, mackerel, drum surf fishing up and down the entire Carolina coast is now just awful - mainly because there is no frickin' bait due to all the netting. Cranston have tanked, too.

So, I think we're probably all closer to similar core opinions than my defense of guides may sound. I think they can be useful to hunters and wildlife, but do need to be regulated/managed. As for taxing them more, as with all taxes it isn't the business that pays but the consumer.
 
SJ Fairbank said:
I like the ban part, at least for migratory birds. (y) I'm torn on whether a state should allow guiding on non migratory game. I've long felt that states shouldn't be able to give preferential treatment to residents for migratory birds, but native game is up to them.
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We've been dealing with this issue in New Jersey now for the past five years. Currently we have no guides license. There has been proposals to implement one especially for waterfowl. There are dozens of pseudo guides out there collecting hundreds of dollars a day per person without any of the proper protocol in effect.

That's not to say we dont have a good amount of reputable outfitters who not only have their captains license (vessel for hire), but also insurance CPR, etc., etc.

The last time we floated this idea, it got pushed back heavily from sport fishing organizations who did not want a blanket law to include charter boats.

Now Even with a charter boat exemption, there's been significant resistance as it as whether it would need to include Turkey, bear, or Deer guides as well. )Which we have very few. )

But I do agree that most guides benefit disproportionally from a public resource.

In my opinion, if I was such a guide, I would take pride in being licensed, when I hear the word master "Maine" guide it means something, or at least it used to!
 
Wyatt Russo said:
Don’t worry though they’ll be another dinner with raffles or a boat/decoy show for you see how much that organization cares about waterfowl and hunting, also that your money is being well spent… yet it’ll be another spring and summer with no projects done to improve waterfowl habitat or to secure more land for hunting… now imagine they secured new hunting land that was also managed for waterfowl!
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This is my perception and why I stated in a previous post these organizations "lose their way".

DU doesn't do much in AL these days. What they do is more localized here too (not on state lands), and typically only helps the local DU "guys". DU did create a lot of duck habitat here in the 70s and 80s. The place I cut my teeth on duck hunting was a DU effort. But management since has faltered (like keeping ditches clean, making it take much longer to get water to many areas), and now its a state draw-only deal.
 
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